2nd gen NSX??? Ferrari did it. 458 Italia.

[effer]

When I look at the new 458 Italia it is just obvious to realize that this car is the true NSX successor.

Honda missed it again and we all know that it was well within their reach to achieve that kind of masterpiece.


When I first saw the NSX concept, I said:

One day I will own one.


I think exactly the same about this new Ferrari ...

Meanwhile I will get a Diablo.



Shame on you Honda ... You seem to refuse my money ...

 

[Akira]

Or how about the this?

http://www.leftlanenews.com/mclaren-mp4-12c.html

 

[effer]

Very interesting, and I respect Mc Laren a lot since their F1 roadcar is truly one of my alltime favorite exotic, but I favor the NA route and, at first glance, the 458 Italia seems to look sexier.


I am convinced that this new Ferrari will be an awesome car.

 

[Silver F16]

Honda doesn't want my $$ either. Ready to buy an HSC but that car has been killed several times over and the clean styling of then is gonee and replace by those with massive large mouth bass size grills. The low hood line styling is gone given today's pedestrian safety requirement.

Notice many of the new cars have higher bumper/grill/hood. I think smaller volume companies like the Italians ones get a waiver or they just pay off the government.

 

[Silver F16]

The front end of the Ferrari doesn't do much for me, especially the lines that seems to extend out from the hood to the headlights. It is a strange highlight to showcase nothing in particular.

 

[lightguy]

As a Ferrari owner; I say the 458 is an incredible evolution.
The NSX was a revolution. Long live the NSX.

 

[effer]

As a Ferrari owner; I say the 458 is an incredible evolution.
The NSX was a revolution. Long live the NSX.

+1

From a Ferrari and NSX owner!


Shame on you stupid Honda ...

 

[SaleenS7Rs]

I always pictured a new NSX kind of looking like a saleen raptor
http://www.2sportscars.com/saleen-raptor.html

 

[BD]

That's funny, Honda doesn't want my money either. I wrote a letter to Honda telling them if they come out with the the NSX replacement, I'll make sure to buy a used one ten years later. They ignored me... I was deeply offended by the fact that they refused to spend hundreds of millions $$$ on a car few will buy, and fewer will buy it used...:frown:

 

[DutchBlackNsx]

lol@vance


I for one think the 458 looks like crap. The front looks like a (Renault)Laguna/(VW)sirocco and the lights like a Gallardo. The rear is crapy as well with the single light.
Seems they DO listen at Ferrari to their customers, most realy like the Gallardo front look.
The pictures of the red one posted by the OP, are the first pics which is think makes the 458 look good, prolly coz you cant see the front or rear.

Second gen NSX? No, this is not an 2nd gen NSX, its a Ferrari, just as is should be in the modelline of Ferrari.

Forget that 2nd gen NSX. It has never existed, nor will it ever.

 

[lightguy]

Vance makes the rules.
Here's a tip.... lay off the coffee.

 

[mlambert890]

I think Vance makes an excellent point. Honda spent billions on the NSX and 8000 people bought it. Since then tens of thousands more have become "NSX owners"... But *8000* bought it new. I was in that club and most folks I know thought I was insane for spending $80k on a Honda.

Now we have the GTR. An $80k Nissan. Everyone is gaga over it, but lets see how many they actually end up selling long term.

The fact is that its enormously hard for a Japanese manufacturer to sell into this space successfully. Part of it is prejudice, part is their image, and part is that they just refuse to go all out in some ways. The NSX was too conservative, at the end of the day, and carried the Japanese stigma. If it had been more powerful and looked wilder, MAYBE it would have been different.

The GTR is a Nissan and more folks feel it is heavy and ugly than not. It has power, but most folks I talk to that arent car fanatics say "big deal" and as was the case with the NSX (but even moreso) it is damned with the "no feel, no soul" stigma (that is in many ways true - these cars are just incredibly neutral and thats a double edged sword)

Ask yourself OBJECTIVELY... would it REALLY be *wise* for Honda to release an NSX2?

The Japanese simply are not equipped to "compete" with the European supercars in any meaningful (read financially rewarding) way. Yes they can come out with a technological tour de force that bests Europe from a *technical* standpoint, but good luck establishing a lasting heritage that creates a *legendary* marque that generations lust after. After all of the kids drool over the YouTube videos proving who the new "KING OF THE RING" is with ever quicker Nurburgring times (NSX-R was 7:56, GTR is god knows), the folks who actually spend 6 figures on a car (who ignore these videos) go spend their money on something that is more than the sum of its parts and more than a machine that goes very fast.

For every person that says they were "ready to buy the HSC" (and ACTUALLY means they really have $100k+ to spend and WOULD have spent it), there are 1000s that will LINE UP for the next Ferrari no matter WHAT it looks like and wouldnt be caught dead NEAR a Honda or Acura dealership. If you're a Honda executive, you know this as a fact and it would be very hard to green light BILLIONS in R&D (esp since they already did it once and it failed)

For what its worth, I dont really like the 458. I havent really liked any of the 8 cyl Ferraris since the 355, but I "get it". Ferrari is an icon. If you're going to attempt to compete, and you're not Lambo or Porsche, you're very likely to either have one spectacular and very limited success (McClaren F1, Bugatti Veyron), or fail miserably (most others).

Its just economics guys...

Maybe Honda should make it real for everyone by making an offer... You agree to tie up $100k in a fund that will yield interest over the next 5 years. If they get 25,000 folks who will do it, they will make your dream HSC. If not, you get your money back plus interest, no strings. If they make it, the $100k is theirs and the interest gets split.

Ferrari very nearly does this. They sell cars out fully with legally binding commits before the damn thing even exists. If Honda did, there would be crickets...

I totally see what Vance is saying. Telling Honda "I want you to make a car so some other guy will buy it and take the depreciation hit so that some day I can buy it used" is REALLY not a compelling argument. Why would a car manufacturer give a crap about used car buyers?? You arent doing Lambo any favors by buying a Diablo 15 years later nor will you be doing Ferrari any favors buying the 458 in 2020. Honda has to worry about how many people would buy the 2011 HSC *IN 2011*.

 

[2slow2speed]

As many other folks have commented, the side profile and the top profile of the car look nice, the rear and the front are a bit weird, the rear seems to borrow from some of the design elements from the 1960's F cars, the front end is a bit more "Gallardoesque" than Ferrari.

The performance of the car speaks for itself, so it can stand on it's own as a F car.

As far as the car being a 2nd gen NSX, it's not even close in terms of a price/value proposition.

 

[swbatte]

I agree with the economics of car manufacturing that has been stated here. I do think that the "Halo Car" concept within car companies, may be a dying marketting idea.

I hope the R8 meets the same fate as the NSX. Under appreciated, and in a few years, under valued.

 

[effer]

Vance makes the rules.
Here's a tip.... lay off the coffee.

LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLoLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL !!!!


I would add:

... and please follow your doctor's advice: you MUST take your PROZAC!!! You MAWST !!!


Vancehu, your argument is so trivial and intellectually dishonest. Everybody here knows that a car company doesn't rely on the second hand buyers to validate the economical success of a project ( or maybe yes if we consider end of lease cars coming back to the dealer ... Everything is not that simple ... ).
Or maybe, considering your font size, you were hard pressed to scream your personal situation and/or your psychological distress...

Remember: You MAWST !!!


Soichiro would not approve! Tsitt! Tsitt!


mlambert brought some interesting points but I do not share his opinion and I do believe in the Halo car strategy.

I also do not believe in the Japanese stigma. Bring a gorgeous exotic design, same or slightly better performance at a cheaper price and you have a winner.

Honda has a true racing heritage. They should have never ceased the NSX concept.

They could have saved a lot of money in F1 by restricting themselves to only supply engines which could have been used to finance the NSX 2 ...


etc. Subject beaten to death ...


mlambert asked a very good question:

Ask yourself OBJECTIVELY... would it REALLY be *wise* for Honda to release an NSX2?



Yes, would have answered Soichiro.

So do I.

 

[BD]

Lightguy, Effer, did you buy your NSX new?

So let me get this clear… We are in a massive economic slump; therefore, the sales of Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Astin Martin, etc are suffering. These manufactures are sports/luxury car “only” manufactures; therefore, they have no choice but to built high performance sports car.

Also, Honda and BMW pulled out of F1 to save money, while Toyota is thinking of doing the same thing. The factory workers are taking a huge pay cut due to lack of sales, but somehow, Honda owes you guys a super car which in my opinion, you guys will never buy it new?

How many people praised the R8 and GTR and cried about Honda’s lack of commitment since 2003, and how many of those NSX owners slash R8/GTR admires bought one those cars. Rumor through the grapevine, from close friend of my who is working at Nissan Corp is that they might thinking about axe the GTR next year since they can’t find any buyers to satisfied the production line.

Ferrari dealership is most likely to demand $350k for the 458 and you want Honda to produce a 458 fighter? Even if Honda is going for it and keep the price at $150k, how many do you think they will sell?

Calling me intellectually dishonest? That’s great one. Drink too much coffee? Not so since I only drink Cuban coffee and they don’t come by too often. I like to know what kind of koolaid you two drinking!

The 1990's tech stock bubble busted, we no longer have rich nerds/geeks.

The housing rush of this decade ended, which witnessed most homeowners trying to find ways to save their property. No more second equity to buy a nice car.. Duh...

2010 plus, we’ll get tax to death by our current supreme leader Mr. O!

Yes, Honda is going to build you a toy because you said so.

I wonder Soichiro Honda would rather built a car few will buy while watching his employees suffer. The Soichiro spirit is not about manufacturing super cars, but create cars that can fulfill people's driving spirit while saving the planet.

Than again, not all of us get to be in that position, or even a business owner. It is easy to criticize some one when you two have absolutely no clue about how the real world operates.

Honda was never a super car manufacture until they want to make a statement with the NSX – That was done during the golden era of the 1980’s. They created a masterpiece but the sales fell way short of the expectation. Before the NSX, you had Honda Prelude - That’s it!!! There will never be another NSX. Go buy a Ferrari!

 

[Silver F16]

It is no surprise that a $150K Acura would not sell. Many on this board had been saying this ever since the V10 idea was born.

However, at the 2003 Tokyo show, The HSC was marketed with a likely price of around $60K. All was going well until Fukui wanted that V10 Front Engine "replacement".

Meanwhile, Mr. Akio Toyoda is about to unleash the Lexus LF-A Supersports car. Perhaps Mr. Toyoda didn't get the memo about Honda caution on future supercars. Or perhaps Mr. Toyoda realizes that apologetics will never achieve greatness.

Honda can return to marketing the HSC but with the management circus indecisions, most of us has stopped holding our breath. Enjoy your NSX and move on to other marques. The affordable and reliable exotic will likely not be repeated.

 

[Silver F16]

Effer, how does your Ferrari compare to your NSX? Sounds like you were ready to upgrade your NSX and with nothing in the Honda pipeline, you move on to Ferrari.

 

[lightguy]

Lightguy, Effer, did you buy your NSX new?



Also, Honda and BMW pulled out of F1 to save money, while Toyota is thinking of doing the same thing. The factory workers are taking a huge pay cut due to lack of sales, but somehow, Honda owes you guys a super car which in my opinion, you guys will never buy it new?

How many people praised the R8 and GTR and cried about Honda’s lack of commitment since 2003, and how many of those NSX owners slash R8/GTR admires bought one those cars.
Yes, Honda is going to build you a toy because you said so.

I dont care if Honda builds another NSX. I am looking for a car not a badge.
I did not buy a NSX new as was an employee with an hourly wage when it came out. I saved like the dickens and vastly overspent my income level when I did find mine depreciated years later.
Time has moved on and now I own a sucessful business. I bought my collector Ferrari cash. To cater to the same new car clients that were around in 1991 as the only market for a new exotic is a fool's game.
DFW Audi screwed me out of my Audi R-8 in which I was #2 on the list. No Audi for me.

I wonder Soichiro Honda would rather built a car few will buy while watching his employees suffer. The Soichiro spirit is not about manufacturing super cars, but create cars that can fulfill people's driving spirit while saving the planet.

Now who is dictationg how Honda should operate ?

Than again, not all of us get to be in that position, or even a business owner. It is easy to criticize some one when you two have absolutely no clue about how the real world operates.

Just too funny.

There will never be another NSX. Go buy a Ferrari

I know, and did. Among others.

Now I'm looking for a new carbon fibre mid-engined car in the same leading edge spirit as the NSX. "An exotic for the masses".
A rational production F1 or Enzo.
Have had a deposit on the New Lotus Esprit for 2 years. We'll see.

 

[BD]

Stop crying and go buy your CF super car!!!!

DOH!!!

 

[Honcho]

Interesting points and I generally agree with most of them. However, I think the real demise was due to a pricing issue, not a marque issue. When the NSX debuted in 1991, the sticker price was $60k. Honda sold almost 9000 of them worldwide by the end of 1991, many at well over sticker. In 1992 Honda sold another 2200. Therefore, I hardly think it was an issue of people holding their nose at the "japanese" stigma- they were lining up to buy that car at $60k. Instead, two things happened: the 1991 recession and the exchange rate with the yen. This caused demand to plummet. By the time the economy recovered and people could afford to by exotics again, the NSX was now close to $90k. How Honda expected intelligent consumers to shell out 90 G's for virtually the same product that was only 60 a few years earlier is beyond me. Predictably, the market responded with a resounding thud. Auto journalists who had been fawning over the car in 1990 now wrote things along the lines of "This car is still a great performer, but $90k? Please."

If the HSC (with the WingZ/Honcho NSX recovery plan design) came out at $60k pre-recession, it would have sold well. If Honda wants to build a limited edition V-10 carbon fiber monster like the LF-A, there are enough enthusiasts out there with the $ to buy it at a run of 50 or 100 units. But that's not a NSX. People are mixing them up and you're right, they could never sell this car on a mass scale at $150k+. Instead, they should return the NSX to its proper place in the lineup: reliable mid-engine sports at a reasonable (i.e., ~60k) price. Leave the Halo car for the auto show circuit and car mags and let people like Jay Leno and Jeremy Clarkson buy them so they can sit in a warehouse somewhere for people to oogle at with the occasional tv apperance.

I think Vance makes an excellent point. Honda spent billions on the NSX and 8000 people bought it. Since then tens of thousands more have become "NSX owners"... But *8000* bought it new. I was in that club and most folks I know thought I was insane for spending $80k on a Honda.

Now we have the GTR. An $80k Nissan. Everyone is gaga over it, but lets see how many they actually end up selling long term.

The fact is that its enormously hard for a Japanese manufacturer to sell into this space successfully. Part of it is prejudice, part is their image, and part is that they just refuse to go all out in some ways. The NSX was too conservative, at the end of the day, and carried the Japanese stigma. If it had been more powerful and looked wilder, MAYBE it would have been different.

The GTR is a Nissan and more folks feel it is heavy and ugly than not. It has power, but most folks I talk to that arent car fanatics say "big deal" and as was the case with the NSX (but even moreso) it is damned with the "no feel, no soul" stigma (that is in many ways true - these cars are just incredibly neutral and thats a double edged sword)

Ask yourself OBJECTIVELY... would it REALLY be *wise* for Honda to release an NSX2?

The Japanese simply are not equipped to "compete" with the European supercars in any meaningful (read financially rewarding) way. Yes they can come out with a technological tour de force that bests Europe from a *technical* standpoint, but good luck establishing a lasting heritage that creates a *legendary* marque that generations lust after. After all of the kids drool over the YouTube videos proving who the new "KING OF THE RING" is with ever quicker Nurburgring times (NSX-R was 7:56, GTR is god knows), the folks who actually spend 6 figures on a car (who ignore these videos) go spend their money on something that is more than the sum of its parts and more than a machine that goes very fast.

For every person that says they were "ready to buy the HSC" (and ACTUALLY means they really have $100k+ to spend and WOULD have spent it), there are 1000s that will LINE UP for the next Ferrari no matter WHAT it looks like and wouldnt be caught dead NEAR a Honda or Acura dealership. If you're a Honda executive, you know this as a fact and it would be very hard to green light BILLIONS in R&D (esp since they already did it once and it failed)

For what its worth, I dont really like the 458. I havent really liked any of the 8 cyl Ferraris since the 355, but I "get it". Ferrari is an icon. If you're going to attempt to compete, and you're not Lambo or Porsche, you're very likely to either have one spectacular and very limited success (McClaren F1, Bugatti Veyron), or fail miserably (most others).

Its just economics guys...

Maybe Honda should make it real for everyone by making an offer... You agree to tie up $100k in a fund that will yield interest over the next 5 years. If they get 25,000 folks who will do it, they will make your dream HSC. If not, you get your money back plus interest, no strings. If they make it, the $100k is theirs and the interest gets split.

Ferrari very nearly does this. They sell cars out fully with legally binding commits before the damn thing even exists. If Honda did, there would be crickets...

I totally see what Vance is saying. Telling Honda "I want you to make a car so some other guy will buy it and take the depreciation hit so that some day I can buy it used" is REALLY not a compelling argument. Why would a car manufacturer give a crap about used car buyers?? You arent doing Lambo any favors by buying a Diablo 15 years later nor will you be doing Ferrari any favors buying the 458 in 2020. Honda has to worry about how many people would buy the 2011 HSC *IN 2011*.

 

[BD]

Interesting points and I generally agree with most of them. However, I think the real demise was due to a pricing issue, not a marque issue. When the NSX debuted in 1991, the sticker price was $60k. Honda sold almost 9000 of them worldwide by the end of 1991, many at well over sticker. In 1992 Honda sold another 2200. Therefore, I hardly think it was an issue of people holding their nose at the "japanese" stigma- they were lining up to buy that car at $60k. Instead, two things happened: the 1991 recession and the exchange rate with the yen. This caused demand to plummet. By the time the economy recovered and people could afford to by exotics again, the NSX was now close to $90k. How Honda expected intelligent consumers to shell out 90 G's for virtually the same product that was only 60 a few years earlier is beyond me. Predictably, the market responded with a resounding thud. Auto journalists who had been fawning over the car in 1990 now wrote things along the lines of "This car is still a great performer, but $90k? Please."

If the HSC (with the WingZ/Honcho NSX recovery plan design) came out at $60k pre-recession, it would have sold well. If Honda wants to build a limited edition V-10 carbon fiber monster like the LF-A, there are enough enthusiasts out there with the $ to buy it at a run of 50 or 100 units. But that's not a NSX. People are mixing them up and you're right, they could never sell this car on a mass scale at $150k+. Instead, they should return the NSX to its proper place in the lineup: reliable mid-engine sports at a reasonable (i.e., ~60k) price. Leave the Halo car for the auto show circuit and car mags and let people like Jay Leno and Jeremy Clarkson buy them so they can sit in a warehouse somewhere for people to oogle at with the occasional tv apperance.

First off, I doubt Honda can achieved $60K for HSC, but that's another discussion.

You nailed it. NSX died after 1991 simply due to the fact that we hit a recession. You also need to point out the first year 9000 units sold, 3/5 of them were sold in Japan. GTR is going have the same fate.

No one in their right mind will produce a car that will cost over $100k unless that's the business they're in. There is a good reason why companies such as Astin Martin, Lambo, Lotus, etc always hit the wall and seeking buyers during the recession.

The truth is, NSX set the bench mark during a time when auto industry were making sloppy cars, but it's not the case any more, you can't achieve new bench mark even if Honda create a car that cost $150 -$200K. It's been done and it is completely pointless to simply be another purchase option.

 

[lightguy]

Stop crying and go buy your CF super car!!!!

DOH!!!

You are such a child.
Really.
Is there some kind of ignore list you can put me on ?
I'll return the favor.

 

[BD]

You are such a child.
Really.
Is there some kind of ignore list you can put me on ?
I'll return the favor.

Brilliant. Start the name calling!

 

[95ttht]

You arent doing Lambo any favors by buying a Diablo 15 years later nor will you be doing Ferrari any favors buying the 458 in 2020.

As much as I agree with you in general, just to play devils advocate they make a butt load of cash off parts/servicing and merchandise.

For every $1 in motorcycles sales Harley Davidson sells $3 worth of merchandise. I bet Ferrari is in the same boat, way more people own jackets and t-shirts than the cars.

Harley and Ferrari could probably actually increase their profitability if they completely stopped making cars and bikes for retail customers