2k Miles - Slipping already - ScienceofSpeed Twin Carbon 700 Clutch & Flywheel

[synikster]

You do realize this clutch is rated to perform alot higher in torque rating? I understand the idea of having high hp cars comes with risk. Although, this is not due to ALOT of power. There are other factors involved. As narrowing things down, it's plausible that the clutch is BAD. No matter what power output you give it or have. For a price tag at 2k+, you would want it to perform as expected. For any performance parts.

I've been building turbo Honda's for 15+ years. Believe me, I know exactly what I am looking at. This is just not a random act of "too much power break things."

And yes, I think SOS does an awesome job at what they do. I'd love to give them all the kudos what they have done to my NSX and everything is flawless. I'd love to support the sport, but sometimes, there are various part you just have to let go because of no support on a seemingly promising product. For me, I think the disc I have is FLAWED.

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Chris deems this normal of a carbon disc to create a weird goo around the clutch housing. Does this look normal of a carbon clutch? I tried to break it down with brake cleaner and it BARELY budge.

 

[synikster]

[MENTION=4260]ScienceofSpeed[/MENTION]
There can only be two variables and I have exhausted my diagnostic and resources; What @Mac Attack mentioned. 2 and 3.

2) Your carbon materials had a defect that somehow made them "glaze" over and loose friction.
***Bad Clutch - The thick greasy ring around the inner transmission housing was shot from the disc. Carbon no cured properly? Maybe. This does not look normal from a "pure" carbon state. (check picture above this post)

3) SOS or the installer put too much grease on the splines and that finally worked its way to the friction liners.
***Posted images on page 1 circled in red. There were more signs of grease seeping from the spline to disc. Clearly. I manage to snap some images, but the other disc had some signs too but the disc had the most wear was the one with the most grease trails. SOS did the install. There were few signs of too much grease on the spline & throw-out bearing area, although I did not take pic of this prior cleaning it.

Chris told me from spec, everything should work. But they don't. They slip.
And was informed that it's the car and not the clutch, something is not right. (Extensively checked all variables here on the car, all looks to be normal spec).

So, I decided to waste more time to install a Stock NSX Clutch to prove that IT IS NOT the car but the clutch itself. Guess what? It runs like a champ with a borrowed clutch/flywheel install yesterday. No slip. SOS seems to be providing the community with good work, this is no way to bash but to inform and maybe thought they be interested to see what the real cause is. But I was given to many fingers to feel confident. As I would love to support this company on future customers projects and give a thumbs up to SOS for anyone who needs anything NSX related. I am a performance parts dealer, I am very well aware of the industry. I’m not looking for free parts. I am looking for a reasonable resolution, as I myself have high hopes in the clutch to perform. From what I am told, I don't expect much for SOS to back up their clutch line*. I would love to see the confidence, but I don't. When it worked, it drove like a dream. But when it failed, I was merely dreaming.

 

[UnhuZ]

Hi,

just realized that this clutch was installed by SOS ... so it's always SOS responsability, wether if it's installation error or a brand new bad clutch.

Nuno

 

[synikster]

As the car sat for 2 year after installation. There were no sign of seized/rust on shaft. It was fairly greasy. Didnt expect this was an issue. 100 miles on clutch. Car drove fine till 2k miles then slipped. The extra grease seems to be the culprit as the plate closes to the flywheel shows alot of grease and more wear them usual. (Slipping). Although the weird goo around the housing is odd, could be a bad curing carbon.

 

[Mac Attack]

Chris deems this normal of a carbon disc to create a weird goo around the clutch housing. Does this look normal of a carbon clutch? I tried to break it down with brake cleaner and it BARELY budge.

Interesting.

I thoroughly cleaned my transmission clutch housing before installing the RPS/SOS twin carbon. The discolorations in my photo are stains in the aluminum. If I have to take out my clutch prematurely I'll be sure to update this thread!

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Seriously, if you go for 600+ hp things can go wrong and some parts that are reliable with less hp get 'consumables'. Don't blame it on the supplier, better make yourself responsible taking the risk going a crazy route with an unkown end ....

You obviously don't understand what the particular product was designed for and the marketing claims made.

If I pay $2500 (and 12 hours of labor) for a product that is marketed as meeting my torque needs, then I expect it to work more than 2500 miles.

Unfortunately, the SOS/RPS twin carbon clutch does not seem to have a very good record. We are not clear if it is due to manufacturing defects, or installation error (including clutch adjustment). It would be nice to know a little more on the statistics, as it would sure help potential future buyers.

Sure, I buy cheap replacement consumable axles for $80 online with little to no expectation for them. 1/10th of Acura's price and they are of decent quality. All of the other posters on this thread are aware of the costs and expectations associated with parts in these applications.

Dave

 

[synikster]

@Mac Attack
I notice my photo's came out like yours as well. Photo's never look so great but in person its spotless! Darn stains. I completely cleaned my transmission, as all my installs are very particular about cleanliness.

I took GoldNSX comment with a grain of salt. People just don't understand that not all product in the world is perfect. There is always room to learn and grow. Ignorance is a bliss.

Some people just don't understand what makes a forum so valuable. Archived information. I read little to no bad things about this clutch. But once I post something, I have MANY people pm me about having the same issue and nothing was resolved. I frequently browse around to see what's good and whats bad. Being well informed never hurts anyone.

But your right Mac, expectations on a product is usually where I stand. I have had high hope for this clutch, as I want to recommend this to all my NSX customers locally, as I do alot of their maintenance and installs. But with all parts, I usually love to make sure they are up to standards before I preach. Everything from SOS seems good, but this particular product seems like a hit and miss. Maybe were missing something here?

 

[Hugh]

Why can't we get decent clutches for these things?

Because a "decent" product is not worthy of being installed in an NSX. You want an excellent product. That would be the Carbonetic (now knows as ATS.

After suffering through 2 RPS/SoS twin carbon clutches that both failed at 7,000 miles, my Carbonetic Triple Carbon clutch has more than 45,000 miles on it with no issues. Charlotte's SoS 3.5L TT has close to 60,000 miles on it with no issues except the fact that is as addictive as crack.

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Everything from SOS seems good, but this particular product seems like a hit and miss. Maybe were missing something here?

I am as baffled as you are. RPS must have photos of a SoS employee naked with some farm animals that they are threatening to make public if SoS discontinues the sale of their product.

 

[Mac Attack]

After suffering through 2 RPS/SoS twin carbon clutches that both failed at 7,000 miles, my Carbonetic Triple Carbon clutch has more than 45,000 miles on it with no issues.
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Hugh - SOS probably installed your first RPS carbon clutch (along with the rest of the TT system IIRC). Who installed it the second time?

Mike at Autowave highly suggested the Carbonetics triple at the time I was looking for a clutch. I now realize I should have listened to him and spent the extra money for it! I'm still hoping this is an installation issue so it will give me some peace-of-mind.


Synikster - Have you tried contacting Rob Smith at RPS directly? Maybe mail this clutch to him and ask for his diagnosis.


Edit:
Rob used to be a member here (rpstc), but his last activity was in 2008. Also, I found this post from Cody about his clutch installation instructions from Rob. Seems very thorough. Wish I had checked individual disc operation on my transmission input spline:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/94927-New-RPS-Twin-Disk-Clutch-Review?p=883981&viewfull=1#post883981

 

[Onsoku]

+1 on the Carbonetics Triple Carbon. I only have 380rwhp. Mike at Autowave suggested it at my 200k service. An adjustment needed at a week after installation, but it's been great for almost 50k miles.

CARBONETICS is your answer!!!! A little chatter on tripple, I dont know how much chatter on dual, mines on 585 whp @ 35k miles and still have plenty to go.

 

[RYU]

+1 on the Carbonetics Triple Carbon. I only have 380rwhp. Mike at Autowave suggested it at my 200k service. An adjustment needed at a week after installation, but it's been great for almost 50k miles.

Mind if I ask what kind of adjustment was needed?

 

[Onsoku]

Mind if I ask what kind of adjustment was needed?

Regan,

On my way home, 2 days after picking it up; it simply wouldn't move. Depressing the pedal did nothing. Had it towed back to Autowave, and they discovered that some adjustment bolt had the wrong version of Loctite applied and had vibrated loose. It was blamed on a temp mechanic that was responsible for "closing up the patient". No problems since.

They paid for the tow

btw, you ready to sell me that exhaust yet!?!

 

[Hugh]

Hugh - SOS probably installed your first RPS carbon clutch (along with the rest of the TT system IIRC). Who installed it the second time?

SoS did. I shipped the car back to them. However after the second RPS dropped dead, Dwight at ForeignTech removed it and installed the Carbonetic triple. SoS issued me a credit for the clutch.

 

[Mac Attack]

SoS did. I shipped the car back to them. However after the second RPS dropped dead, Dwight at ForeignTech removed it and installed the Carbonetic triple. SoS issued me a credit for the clutch.

Thanks Hugh.

I wonder if it was the same technician at SOS that installed your two clutches and syniksters?

Very interesting. We have at least three of these clutches installed by SOS that have failed.

Dave

 

[Honcho]

Any info/thoughts on the ATS clutch options? Looks interesting from a weight savings standpoint.

 

[RYU]

Thanks Hugh.

I wonder if it was the same technician at SOS that installed your two clutches and syniksters?

Very interesting. We have at least three of these clutches installed by SOS that have failed.

Dave

SFDreamer's SOS Carbon twin failed. I was there when it failed but he's not really on here anymore so you won't get a personal testimonial.

 

[Mac Attack]

SFDreamer's SOS Carbon twin failed. I was there when it failed but he's not really on here anymore so you won't get a personal testimonial.

Forgot about that. From his for sale thread, it looks like it has a (replacement) SOS/RPS carbon unit.

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Any info/thoughts on the ATS clutch options? Looks interesting from a weight savings standpoint.

They used to be Carbonetics. Before I bought the SOS/RPS twin carbon, I was looking into them. Their twin clutch was ~$2500 at the time - about the same cost as the SOS twin carbon.

The Carbonetics triple at the time was more like $3500. I couldn't find anyone running the twin, only NSX experience seemed to be with triples. The triple seemed like overkill (not to mention $1000 more), so I just went with the SOS/RPS.

To be fair, I did a lot of research on both the Carbonetics and the RPS carbon clutches from the Supra forums. There aren't too many high-HP NSX's, where there are a ton of Supras in the 600HP+ range running these dual and triple carbon clutches. The triple Carbonetics had "issues" too.

Dave

 

[Nero Tenebre]

Guys I don't know if this helps at all but one thing I learned about carbon clutches is that they are not meant for street driving. If you decide to add throttle aggressively when the clutch is not warmed up it may cause it to slip and wear out prematurely.

 

[shawn110975]

I use OEM always and never one problem EVER.... I love SOS just spent 2300 with them a few days ago. I am an OEM guy some people like the stronger grab

I think issues like this should be between customer and SOS. bashing someone in public isnt cool. with SOS's near perfect record of customer service and products

I will just keep my mouth shut its none of my business LOL

 

[Onsoku]

My Carbonetics triple is proving to be a trooper. It feels the same after 50k miles. From a dig, or 2nd gear pull; minor slip, and then it hooks up. No fuss, no drama...

Guys I don't know if this helps at all but one thing I learned about carbon clutches is that they are not meant for street driving. If you decide to add throttle aggressively when the clutch is not warmed up it may cause it to slip and wear out prematurely.

 

[Nero Tenebre]

What exactly is the warm up procedure to get these up to temp? Just repeated engagement or slipping to heat them up? Seems like to warm them up you have to wear them out...

 

[Mac Attack]

Anything ever happen with this?

I was recently informed about another one on the East coast that started slipping prematurely. It was an earlier model though.

Dave

 

[pjr300]

following.... for a similar reason.

 

[RYU]

How is your new clutch performing btw? Break it in yet?

 

[pjr300]

How is your new clutch performing btw? Break it in yet?

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[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

You guys must be putting down some serious power! I have one of rps's old 6 puke and even at 500whp it didn't slip