Hey guys, I was just wondering if $61k for a 01 nsx with 11k miles is a good deal? Just curious and torturing myself :smile: Well actually I'm toying with the idea of getting one again... :biggrin:
2001 NSX Question
- Thread starter NsSeX
- Start date
For not much more money you could get a 2002 with similar miles. I guess it depends on what body style you like best.
Here is a 2001 on cars.com
2001 Acura NSX T $54,900 22,000
That to me is a much better deal, if it is clean.
But, I would also say if you like the 01 look, buy a clean, low mileage 97 for $45 and do a Comptech SC i/h/e on there and you will have an incredible car for still under the $61K.
Here is a 2001 on cars.com
2001 Acura NSX T $54,900 22,000
That to me is a much better deal, if it is clean.
But, I would also say if you like the 01 look, buy a clean, low mileage 97 for $45 and do a Comptech SC i/h/e on there and you will have an incredible car for still under the $61K.
Wasn't there someone on here from the east coast that bought a yellow '01, with a couple thousand miles at the end of the model year for $62K ish? How could it be worth anywhere near that when it's over four years old?! I'd be willing to bet that dealers would pay mid 40s for your typical '01. A couple of thousand profit for them, and you're still under $50k.
Sounds like you have not been shopping for an '01 NSX, and you're just guessing. Because your estimates are just flat out wrong...MoreRPMs said:
NSXTASY,
Did you happen to see the '02 with 16k miles in the Chicago Tribune a month ago, at a dealer, with an asking price of $56,900? The market is artificially inflated due to people who've got unrealistic expectations of what their car is worth. It doesn't help that there are people out there who are ignorant and are willing to pay almost anything just for some piece of status, thereby keeping the market inflated. As P.T. Barnum once said : "There's a sucker born every minute."
Did you happen to see the '02 with 16k miles in the Chicago Tribune a month ago, at a dealer, with an asking price of $56,900? The market is artificially inflated due to people who've got unrealistic expectations of what their car is worth. It doesn't help that there are people out there who are ignorant and are willing to pay almost anything just for some piece of status, thereby keeping the market inflated. As P.T. Barnum once said : "There's a sucker born every minute."
Eating a bag of PC watching and scratching my ass.
MoreRPMs said:
So you saw a single ad for a single car with above-average mileage, and, based on your post, you assumed that the car was otherwise perfect, and you assumed that the car could be purchased for at least 15 percent less than the asking price, and you assumed that cars in excellent condition but with less mileage can be purchased elsewhere for the same price or better.MoreRPMs said:
You know what they say happens when you A-S-S-U-M-E.So answer a few questions, and show us whether or not you can support your claims. Did you see the car itself in person? Do you know what condition it was in? Do you know if the dealer sold the car for the full asking price? Did you see other cars elsewhere for the same price?
How many cars have you inspected in person? How many buyers and sellers have you assisted in the past year, with advice? How many searches have you helped with? How many negotiations have you followed? How many 2002 NSXs have you actually seen sold lately for prices "under $50K"?
Tell us about yourself. Specifically, are you in the market to buy a used NSX, so that you have a vested interest in trying to drive prices down by making owners think that their cars are worth less than they actually are?
Please answer all of the above questions so we can figure out whether you know anything at all about what you're saying, or you are just speaking out of your @$$.
Quite aside from your knowledge (or wild-ass guesses) about this particular car and what it might or might not be purchased for, one fact remains, which you conveniently ignore (or perhaps are clueless about): One data point does not indicate what the market value of a car is. It's possible that a single car can be bought for a bargain because a particular seller may not be knowledgeable about the overall market for a car. The market value of a car is the value at which a buyer or seller could easily go out and find plenty more similar cars at that same price on any given day. For example, I could sell a perfect NSX of a given year/mileage/condition/etc for $15,000, but that does not mean that that is the market value of the car. If a buyer would have to pay $30,000 to easily find other cars that are similar, and if a seller could easily sell similar cars for $27,000, then THAT range is the market value of the car.
Right now there are 16 2002 NSXs listed on Autotrader. One of these has over 50,000 miles and is listed with an asking price of $55,900 (and yes, I wouldn't be surprised if THAT car, with its super-high mileage, MIGHT be purchased for under $50K, but I would not automatically assume that, nor would I claim that perfect cars with more typical mileage could be purchased for that price). The other 15 cars are shown with asking prices of $62,900 to $69,995. It's usually pretty easy to negotiate down to an actual selling price of 5 to 10 percent below the asking price; it's usually difficult to impossible to negotiate anything less than that, particularly at the bottom of the range of prices. I would therefore conclude that most of these cars could be bought for prices in the $59-62K range, that you might be able to buy one or more of them for prices in the $56-59K range, but that you would have a hard time buying any for significantly less than that. That makes $56-62K the market value of an average 2002 NSX, with variations within that range attributable to differences in mileage, condition, buyer flexibility, etc. As is often the case, you can buy a 2002 NSX for less than that range, but you are likely to find unusually high mileage and/or other issues.
A similar analysis of 2001 NSXs shows 12 listings. Eight of them show asking prices above $60K. Two more have extremely high mileage (38K and 51K), a third has above-average mileage (23K), and the fourth is just under $60K. Using the same sort of analysis, I would therefore conclude that the market value of an average 2001 NSX would be in the range of $54-60K, with the same caveats. Someone looking for a perfect car with mileage well below average, such as the car which sparked this topic, might easily have to pay a price of $61K (which I would consider a fair price, while not necessarily any great bargain).
These numbers prove that you can't easily go out and buy a 2001 NSX with average or better condition and mileage for "under $50K"; that claim represents nothing more than one potential buyer's wishful thinking.
The market is never "inflated"; like any free market, the market price is what it is. If people are willing to buy and sell cars for $X,000, so anyone can easily buy and sell them at that price, then that's what the car is worth. It's called "supply and demand". It's not "ignorance" to pay the market price for something; it's simply a buyer's decision whether or not to pay the going price. The only "ignorance" I see in this discussion is the fact that you want to pay less than the market price, and in order to do so, you are trying to deny that the market price is what it is, and insulting people who pay what they need to pay in order to buy the car they want to buy. Ignorance, indeed.MoreRPMs said:
And apparently you're hoping that an NSX owner reading your posts is one of them...MoreRPMs said:
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Daaamn
kgb_agent said:
I second that.....
Great write up Nsxtasy..... this guy obviously hasn't done his research. I would also like to add that the NSX is not like every other car out there. Supply and demand is a major factor as to why the NSX holds it's value so well. Do an auto trader search for 2002 Chevy camaro vs a 2002 NSX.... you're looking at 100 to 1 ratio (I'm guessing)....
If you want a bargin, buy a Camaro!!! If you want perfection, anti up for a NSX!!!
OH and NsXex......it's a fair deal...if it's in perfect condition it's a really good deal.
I'd like to thank you for the macro econ lesson, nsxtasy. Before today, I never knew what the words "supply and demand" meant. What's the point of introducing myself if you already have preconceived notions about who/what I am? Assisting buyers and/or sellers doesn't make one an expert. Everything you've said, strike that, argued vehemently for, is completely in support of a person selling his car. Yes, I am in the market, and have seen several cars in the area over the last several years, and have talked with new and used car managers at local Acura dealers. One in particular pulled out his Black Book (which is based on actual auction prices), and quoted a price on a '98 (this was in late summer '99) of $48k. I didn't pull these prices out of my @ss, as you so charged. Just as I didn't say that a '02 can be bought for under $50k.
Let me ask you, how long is the average nsx for sale? I've seen plenty advertised for one year and longer. Where then, is the so-called "market"? With few transactions taking place, and crazy asking prices elsewhere hardly amount to a bustling market to make definitive statements about what exactly is the "right price" to pay.
You also speak about "average" miles on used examples. Your determination is almost certainly based on the fact that your car, no doubt, does not exceed said average. So based on your numbers, how then is 16k miles on a 3 year old 2002, above average?
I must excuse myself now, it's late and I'm damn tired. I look forward to continuing this friendly conversation soon. I thank you again for your kind welcome to this board.
Let me ask you, how long is the average nsx for sale? I've seen plenty advertised for one year and longer. Where then, is the so-called "market"? With few transactions taking place, and crazy asking prices elsewhere hardly amount to a bustling market to make definitive statements about what exactly is the "right price" to pay.
You also speak about "average" miles on used examples. Your determination is almost certainly based on the fact that your car, no doubt, does not exceed said average. So based on your numbers, how then is 16k miles on a 3 year old 2002, above average?
I must excuse myself now, it's late and I'm damn tired. I look forward to continuing this friendly conversation soon. I thank you again for your kind welcome to this board.
Oh boy, I better save some of my popcorn so I can continue this thread in the morning.
(See above thread mentioning black book pricing on an NSX)
(See above thread mentioning black book pricing on an NSX)
MoreRPMs said:
I'm sure there are cars that take over a year to sell. (personally, I haven't seen it) The reason for that is because not a lot of people know much about the NSX (that's why they move on when they cannot find one at "black book" value) and second, it's an expensive car inwhich the buyer will need a good chunk down due to the cost of 7-14 year old cars.
Unless you know a lot about the car, besides the killer look, there isn't much drawing you to it. I mean you can get a 91 LT1 Vette with 300hp for probably $12-14,000. More Hp, more to choose from, and cheaper to fix. However, those who know what the NSX is all about know it's well worth the money.
That's why a 91 NSX will, more than likely, cost you more then a 2001 Vette.
Your initial post on this thread came across a bit harsh. That's why, us owners, defended ourselves. I didn't get screwed on my car, I paid a fair price. That's because I knew I could not just call the dealer down the block for a better bargain. Honda only make a few hundred cars a year.....the US maybe sees 60-75 percent ?!?.... you have no choise but to pay more (or settle for less)....
That's just the way it is..... :smile:
No problem; I'm always glad to help out. I knew that you had no idea about how "supply and demand" worked when you were using terms like "artificially inflated" and "unrealistic expectations". Anyone who understood the laws of supply and demand would never use those terms to describe the used car market.MoreRPMs said:
I based all my statements on the statements that YOU made. Name a single statement that you claim is a "preconceived notion". I bet that's about as easy for you to do as to point us to a 2001 NSX with no issues for your claimed "under $50K".MoreRPMs said:
Not by itself, but that's one way to get familiar with what cars actually sell for.MoreRPMs said:
Nonsense. You only see it that way because you wish prices were lower than they are, and because you're looking to buy, you're trying to drive prices down. Unlike you, I don't have any vested interest in driving the prices up OR down. However, no one person - not you, not me, not even Lud - can drive prices up or down. With 9000 NSXs in the country, people are going to buy and sell the cars for whatever deal they can strike.MoreRPMs said:
Oh, and for the record, I've actually helped as many buyers as sellers.
Stop trying to tell lies about what you said; your post is there for everyone to see. You made that claim ("under $50K") for a 2001, not for a '98. You made that claim for a retail price from a dealer, not for the dealer's wholesale cost. And you made that claim for today's market, not the market of six years ago. Claims that you cannot back up in any way. If you didn't pull that claim out of your ass, then show us where we can buy a 2001 with average mileage (15-20K miles) for under $50K. This is your big chance to prove that you didn't pull your claim out of your ass. We're all waiting...MoreRPMs said:
It depends on the asking price and the seller's willingness to negotiate (as well as the specifics of the car involved). If either is out of line with the market, the car won't sell. If the car is priced right, it can sell in a few days to a few weeks. Some cars posted for sale on NSXprime sell within 24 hours of being posted.MoreRPMs said:
Take those '01 cars that are listed for $69K. They can easily sit around for a year, because the asking price is too high. Ask $59K, and accept an offer of $55K, and it will sell within a few weeks, except for northern dealers in the winter, where they might have to wait till spring.
Most NSXs are sold between private parties. A lot of sales take place to friends and family members. And a lot of sales take place through postings such as here on NSXprime. Have you looked at the NSXs for Sale forum here? Have you seen how many of them have sold? And you're wrong (again) - most of them do NOT take a year or more to sell, as you can see for yourself by browsing the listings here.MoreRPMs said:
More bullsh*t. You don't even know how many miles are on my car, which is not for sale.MoreRPMs said:
Over time, the typical mileage that accumulates on an NSX is 5,000 miles per year. Although we often speak of it as an "average", it's actually a "median", with half of the cars above that figure, and half below. It generally holds true for NSXs of any model year. And although you use the prejudicial term "my numbers", this is not something I made up; this figure was the result in a poll here on NSXprime. That number is also usually consistent with most other sources with sufficient numbers of cars to act as a sample. For example, right now there are 9 1994 NSXs for sale on Autotrader, and the median mileage is 49,933 (4,539 miles/year). There are 9 1997 NSXs for sale on Autotrader, and the median mileage is 45,081 (5,635 miles/year). There are 9 1993 NSXs for sale on Autotrader, and the median mileage is 71,000 (5,917 miles/year). These are the only three years I checked, but feel free to go to Autotrader and see for yourself. It's useful to do some research instead of making wild-ass claims about what is and isn't so; you ought to try it some time...MoreRPMs said:
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Would you like some soup to go with it?schuey1010 said:
nsxtasy said:
I should stay out of this, but I can't resist, afterall, this guy that dares to "spar" with Ken is using my initials!!! Ken, the guy looks to be in your backyard, so "take him out" get the NSXmafia together and put an end to this thread, you know the car better than 95% of the Acura dealers across the country, and this buffoon dares to challenge you!!! I say just take a look at this thread posted a couple of days ago, see what a dealer just paid for an 03!!!!!!!!
Well......I did it today......a dealership in Tampa got in an 05 Yellow S2000 and I traded my NSX in on it. They gave me $66,500 for my NSX and I got the S2000 for 31,900 with the front lip spoiler, the trunk spoiler that lays flush, and the side strakes + $399 dealer fee and $85 plate transfer fee. I didn't have to pay any sales tax since the trade was more than what I was buying.
I'm a little sad letting the NSX go......but at the same time I'm relieved I won't be worrying about the NSX all the time anymore.
__________________
03 Spa Yellow NSX (Traded 2/18/05)
05 Rio Yellow Pearl S2000
03 Suzuka Blue S2000
04 Premium White Pearl TSX w/Nav
Ken, you keep on fighting the good fight, and Forum's Nazi, can I have some "Pea Soup" please!!! :biggrin:
Forums Nazi said:
I would love some pea soup. Only one bowl, as too much gives me a tummy ache when I go to sleep.
The '01 that started this thread is Acura certified....how do I know..it was mine for 3 years, from new, and traded to Acura of Bellevue a few weeks ago!
Steve Werre
Seattle
Steve Werre
Seattle
Isn't NSXprime fabulous? Where else can you find the previous owner of a car before you buy it?
As far as informing people of the auction prices of NSX's, it's not a value added activity unless you're able to go to the auctions. My uncle owns a used car auction and dealerships in Massachussetts and did some reseach for me before I bought my 1999 in Dec 2003. The "KBB" price for the car was over $60K. He said the auction value was ~$44.5K for that year NSX-T with ~40K mile. Color also changes the value...out on the east coast: Black and red are positive, grey and white are neutral, other colors are negative. I ended up paying $47.5K for my car in a person to person sale. My logic was I actually got to see the car and it just had the 40K mileage service, new tires, etc completed which cost about $2.5K so by the time I bought an auction car, had the same things done and shipped across the US I would have paid about the same. Plus you never know with cars at auction, there can be a lot of risk. About a year later, he told me 2 nsx's had sold at auction recently: 1997 for $36K and a 1995 for $29K. I don't have any other info on those cars, but just though I'd share what I know.
As to the value of this 2001, I talk to the previous owner about the car and it's condition, especially since isn't the one selling it. You're looking at a car that about as "aged" as mine when I bought it, but the major difference is that my purchase was "high mileage" for an NSX. That's never bothered me because it's powered by Honda and if Civics can run for 300K miles with only minor service, I think the NSX will do the same or better.
Good luck on your search and enjoy the experience...hopefully you'll be an owner soon!!!
As far as informing people of the auction prices of NSX's, it's not a value added activity unless you're able to go to the auctions. My uncle owns a used car auction and dealerships in Massachussetts and did some reseach for me before I bought my 1999 in Dec 2003. The "KBB" price for the car was over $60K. He said the auction value was ~$44.5K for that year NSX-T with ~40K mile. Color also changes the value...out on the east coast: Black and red are positive, grey and white are neutral, other colors are negative. I ended up paying $47.5K for my car in a person to person sale. My logic was I actually got to see the car and it just had the 40K mileage service, new tires, etc completed which cost about $2.5K so by the time I bought an auction car, had the same things done and shipped across the US I would have paid about the same. Plus you never know with cars at auction, there can be a lot of risk. About a year later, he told me 2 nsx's had sold at auction recently: 1997 for $36K and a 1995 for $29K. I don't have any other info on those cars, but just though I'd share what I know.
As to the value of this 2001, I talk to the previous owner about the car and it's condition, especially since isn't the one selling it. You're looking at a car that about as "aged" as mine when I bought it, but the major difference is that my purchase was "high mileage" for an NSX. That's never bothered me because it's powered by Honda and if Civics can run for 300K miles with only minor service, I think the NSX will do the same or better.
Good luck on your search and enjoy the experience...hopefully you'll be an owner soon!!!
Hothonda said:
Hi Steve, the dealership told me that the car actually is not certified and only has the original warranty which has one year left.
Looks like Surferx is quoting actual numbers, not ones obtained from a handful of cars on autotrader with ASKING prices. I agree that anyone can ask anything they want for a particular car. And they can also sit on it for a year or two with wishful thinking on their side.
As for the poll on average mileage taken on Prime, how many of the 9000+ NSXs answered the poll? This is an enthusiast community which doesn't necessarily reflect numbers of the typical owner out there.
And speaking of overinflated market, I don't know what else to call it when, for example, you find '03 Z06 sellers on the vette boards advertising their 2 year old cars: "5,000 pampered miles. Mint. $45,000." And someone else chimes in with "Uh, I bought a brand new '04 Z06 for $39,999." Those same '03 Vette owners would be lucky to get $30 to $31k on a trade, b/c the dealer would then probably only get $33 or $34 for it. Same applies to NSXs and what most of the dealers are asking for used examples from whatever years. With such a huge discrepancy between auction figures and overblown asking prices, even with your quoted 10% or so discount off asking, the buyer still gets raped. I'll I'm trying to do is prevent other people, who are in the same position as me, from overpaying for the 4 year old car they're looking for. I didn't come here to argue. I came here as an enthusiast for the marque, as a lifelong race fan, and as a huge fan of high-tech in exotic sports cars.
As for the poll on average mileage taken on Prime, how many of the 9000+ NSXs answered the poll? This is an enthusiast community which doesn't necessarily reflect numbers of the typical owner out there.
And speaking of overinflated market, I don't know what else to call it when, for example, you find '03 Z06 sellers on the vette boards advertising their 2 year old cars: "5,000 pampered miles. Mint. $45,000." And someone else chimes in with "Uh, I bought a brand new '04 Z06 for $39,999." Those same '03 Vette owners would be lucky to get $30 to $31k on a trade, b/c the dealer would then probably only get $33 or $34 for it. Same applies to NSXs and what most of the dealers are asking for used examples from whatever years. With such a huge discrepancy between auction figures and overblown asking prices, even with your quoted 10% or so discount off asking, the buyer still gets raped. I'll I'm trying to do is prevent other people, who are in the same position as me, from overpaying for the 4 year old car they're looking for. I didn't come here to argue. I came here as an enthusiast for the marque, as a lifelong race fan, and as a huge fan of high-tech in exotic sports cars.
newby said:
Camaros, like just about all American cars are garbage. I didn't begin my NSX search the day before yesterday. I've been looking at them for years. And actually drove a new '91 in early '92. So, I didn't just discover the car. Thanks for the advice on the Camaro. Hope yours is running A-ok :smile:
Sorry to hear it, Roger, but there are always reasons why someone might want to move elsewhere. (Did you move to Tampa, or did you go that far for a good deal on your car?) It was a pleasure to meet you at NSXPO 2004. Stay in touch!RPM217 said:
P.S. Don't forget to change your sig.
Yes, just like the actual numbers that folks I know have been paying and receiving on NSX sales. (This is where actual experience with the market is helpful.)MoreRPMs said:
Which doesn't explain the consistency with the mileage numbers on Autotrader, which consists mostly of dealer sales which are likely to NOT consist of enthusiasts' cars.MoreRPMs said:
You're grasping at straws.
Obviously, when someone asks more for a used car than the same (or more recent) car can be bought new, that is out of line. But they're not likely to be able to sell the car at that price, so that is not really the market price. It's just an unrealistically high asking price that is not representative of the market.MoreRPMs said:
There are auction figures, and actual sale prices (the "market price"), and asking prices. Three different things. Auction figures are the lowest and are not accessible to the general public. There is a difference between auction prices and market prices, partly because of the wholesale nature of the auctions (which also applies to prices given by dealers on trade-in), and partly due to the higher risk of expensive problems on cars bought at auction, as noted above by surferX. He noted a difference of $3K between an auction price and the actual price he paid for a '99 with above-average mileage and up to date maintenance; I consider the price he paid to be a typical market price for the car as he describes it - a good deal, but not unusually so. So yes, there is a difference of several thousand dollars between an auction/wholesale/trade-in price and a market price. As for asking prices, sure, there's a difference between asking prices and selling prices (market price), and if you look at the highest asking prices, of course they can be much higher than the market price. My analysis of the 2002 NSX shows this, where there are a lot of cars listed with asking prices of $69,995, whereas the market price in general is in the $56-62K range, as noted above. The highest asking prices always consist of "wishful thinking", almost by definition, since they are the highest. But typical cars rarely sell for those prices, and when they do, they are going to buyers who aren't shopping around and don't know what the typical market prices are. It is possible for a seller to sell a car for a higher price than the market price - just like it is possible for a buyer to buy a car for a lower price than the market price - but he has to be lucky, and such prices aren't representative of the market.MoreRPMs said:
Me too. The difference is that the numbers you quote bear no relation to what cars can actually be bought for.MoreRPMs said:
Of course, the thing that EVERYONE should keep in mind about this assessment of market prices is this: You don't have to believe either one of us. If you are shopping for a 2001 NSX, and you want to believe that you can get a nice one for the upper forties price range, go look for one. If you find one, great! All I'm saying is that I believe you can look and look for months and months, and you're not likely to find a nice one for less than mid fifties.
On the other hand, if you really want a 2001, keep in mind that the 1997-2001 model years are virtually identical, and you can find nice 1997 cars in the mid to upper forties fairly easily. (One significant difference, though, is that a 1997 is probably overdue for a timing belt replacement.)
And on that, we can agree.MoreRPMs said:
Thanks guys for you input. The 01 is in excellent condition, so now i'm deciding either to take a hit on my trade in and purchase it, or invest and buy one later.
Regarding that trade-in, just remember that, depending on the laws in your state, you may get a sales tax break on the trade-in. In most states you only pay sales tax on the difference, and not on the entire purchase amount. This saves you the amount of the sales tax on the trade in. For example, if you get $40K on a trade-in on a $61K car purchase, at 6.5 percent sales tax, the trade-in is worth $42,600 to you, by reducing the purchase price by that amount.NsSeX said:
