1991 NSX doesn't crank, 1 click and then dead silence

[MashimaroNSX]

Weird thing happened today. I drove my car in the morning and then parked it sort of halfway out of my garage because my wife was painting something in there. When she was done and I was ready to back my car up it just wouldn't start. All the lights go on perfectly fine but when I turn the key it clicks once and then goes silent. I went to check if one of the clutch switch grommets came apart but they're actually both in great condition. Also the main relay and the ignition switch are pretty new so i've basically ruled those out. Battery seems fine, all connections seem ok. I tried knocking on the starter a bit but I doubt that did anything productive. So now i'm just open to ideas.

 

[drew]

Clean connections at battery and starter. Sounds like a high resistance short.

 

[MashimaroNSX]

Thanks, I'm suspecting you're right. It just feels like something is loose. Oh and I forgot to mention that before that I was hard locking my ABS to exercise the solinoids because my ABS pump was going off and not stopping. My battery is just tied down with bungee cords and doesn't have a tray.

 

[Old Guy]

Leave the door open so that the interior lights are on and try to start the car. If when you try to start the car the lights go out or exceedingly dim, you likely have one of two problems.

1.
As [MENTION=5430]drew[/MENTION] suggests, you have a bad connection, likely on the battery post terminals; but, could be the starter terminal. The Honda OEM battery post clamps are easily damaged by being over tightened. Repeated over tightening stretches the clamp to the point that it does not grip the post and you can rotate the clamp on the post even though the tightening bolt is maxed out. In a pinch you can purchase shims to fit over the battery post to give you a tight fit; but, the better solution is to replace the battery post clamps.

2.
Maintenance Free batteries have a habit of dying without showing prior obvious symptoms of deterioration. I have had a vehicle that was working just fine, parked it to get some groceries, come out 10 minutes later and stone cold dead. You can boost these batteries and the car will start; but, they will fail generally fail to restart. New battery is the only solution.

If your interior lights don't go dim when you try the starter with the door open, then something other than a dead battery / bad connections is at play.

 

[drew]

>before that I was hard locking my ABS to exercise the solenoids because my ABS pump was going off and not stopping

You should probably jump (short out) the ALB pressure sensor connector. That will stop the pump and will disable the ABS/ALB, but prevent warning lamps and keeps your TCS mostly happy.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...BS-Accumulator?p=919182&viewfull=1#post919182

Go ahead and secure your battery properly with all the proper bits. The battery connectors are minimal under the best of circumstances.

 

[MashimaroNSX]

>before that I was hard locking my ABS to exercise the solenoids because my ABS pump was going off and not stopping

You should probably jump (short out) the ALB pressure sensor connector. That will stop the pump and will disable the ABS/ALB, but prevent warning lamps and keeps your TCS mostly happy.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...BS-Accumulator?p=919182&viewfull=1#post919182

Go ahead and secure your battery properly with all the proper bits. The battery connectors are minimal under the best of circumstances.

Thanks, the ABS was going on and off intermittently so I wasn't getting a light but rather the annoying pump going on every 5 seconds I'm driving. I cleaned all the terminals and still no luck. Funny thing is about a month ago it has happened at a parking lot when I was going to the bank but then all of a sudden I was able to start the car again. Quick note, the dashboard voltmeter says 11 volts, just a tad under 12.

 

[MashimaroNSX]

Leave the door open so that the interior lights are on and try to start the car. If when you try to start the car the lights go out or exceedingly dim, you likely have one of two problems.

1.
As [MENTION=5430]drew[/MENTION] suggests, you have a bad connection, likely on the battery post terminals; but, could be the starter terminal. The Honda OEM battery post clamps are easily damaged by being over tightened. Repeated over tightening stretches the clamp to the point that it does not grip the post and you can rotate the clamp on the post even though the tightening bolt is maxed out. In a pinch you can purchase shims to fit over the battery post to give you a tight fit; but, the better solution is to replace the battery post clamps.

2.
Maintenance Free batteries have a habit of dying without showing prior obvious symptoms of deterioration. I have had a vehicle that was working just fine, parked it to get some groceries, come out 10 minutes later and stone cold dead. You can boost these batteries and the car will start; but, they will fail generally fail to restart. New battery is the only solution.

If your interior lights don't go dim when you try the starter with the door open, then something other than a dead battery / bad connections is at play.

Lights seem to dim extremely minimaly, almost to the point of not being able to notice. My battery is a larger optima drycell approximately 2 years old. Maybe its on its way out? also I noticed that the voltmeter on the dash says 11 and most people say that it should be 12?

 

[MashimaroNSX]

Ok, I can comfortably rule out the battery since I just tried jumpstarting it and the symptoms are still the same.

 

[MashimaroNSX]

Clean connections at battery and starter. Sounds like a high resistance short.[/QU

Connections at the battery are cleaned, do you know how many connections are at the starter by any chance? I see one large thick wire going to it with a rubber boot covering the end.

 

[Old Guy]

When you tried jumpstarting the car did you use the jumpstart terminal in the engine compartment? If you didn't, you could still have a bad connection. The battery ground connection has been known to fail at the point where it connects to the body.

When you turn your key to the run position before engaging the starter, does the fuel pump go through the 2-3 second prime cycle? If not, you might have a worn ignition switch issue. Note that a failed main FI relay will stop the engine from running; but, it will not prevent the starter motor from operating.


Other potential problems:
- The starter cut relay may be dead
- The security system may not be providing the permissive to the starter cut relay.
- You have a broken wire / bad connection in the starter circuit.
- You have a dead starter.

The dead starter is probably the easiest to diagnose. Try tapping the body of the starter with a hammer. Sometimes the tapping will provide a temporary fix. The definitive test for the starter is to use a remote starter switch connected between the jump start terminal in the engine relay box and the S terminal on the solenoid (small spade terminal - not the big terminal from the battery). Activate the remote start switch and the starter motor should operate (do this with the ignition turned off otherwise the engine will start). If the starter motor does not engage then its time for a new starter motor or a rebuild.

 

[MashimaroNSX]

When you tried jumpstarting the car did you use the jumpstart terminal in the engine compartment? If you didn't, you could still have a bad connection. The battery ground connection has been known to fail at the point where it connects to the body.

When you turn your key to the run position before engaging the starter, does the fuel pump go through the 2-3 second prime cycle? If not, you might have a worn ignition switch issue. Note that a failed main FI relay will stop the engine from running; but, it will not prevent the starter motor from operating.


Other potential problems:
- The starter cut relay may be dead
- The security system may not be providing the permissive to the starter cut relay.
- You have a broken wire / bad connection in the starter circuit.
- You have a dead starter.

The dead starter is probably the easiest to diagnose. Try tapping the body of the starter with a hammer. Sometimes the tapping will provide a temporary fix. The definitive test for the starter is to use a remote starter switch connected between the jump start terminal in the engine relay box and the S terminal on the solenoid (small spade terminal - not the big terminal from the battery). Activate the remote start switch and the starter motor should operate (do this with the ignition turned off otherwise the engine will start). If the starter motor does not engage then its time for a new starter motor or a rebuild.

Didn't jump from the engine compartment, i'll try that and let you know. I'm suspecting the starter, is there an easy way to know if it went bad? I've tried tapping it and then trying to start the car but nothing. Does someone need to tap it at the same time while I try and start the engine?

 

[Old Guy]

I have attached the starter schematic from the service manual. If you can figure out schematic diagrams, there are a couple of ways that you could do the equivalent of the remote starter switch test to see if the starter is the element that has failed. This is presuming that you don't have or can't borrow a remote starter switch which would be about the easiest way to confirm starter non operation - probably 5 minutes tops. If you aren't comfortable sussing out the schematic, then the best course of action (short of flat bedding it to the dealership) would be to remove the starter motor and take it to a specialist to have it tested.

With respect to tapping the starter, if you tapped the starter and then tried to start it and it was no go, having somebody tap it while you try to start it is probably not going to make a difference. The tapping business is very much a Hail Mary attempt to get it to start.

 

[MashimaroNSX]

I have attached the starter schematic from the service manual. If you can figure out schematic diagrams, there are a couple of ways that you could do the equivalent of the remote starter switch test to see if the starter is the element that has failed. This is presuming that you don't have or can't borrow a remote starter switch which would be about the easiest way to confirm starter non operation - probably 5 minutes tops. If you aren't comfortable sussing out the schematic, then the best course of action (short of flat bedding it to the dealership) would be to remove the starter motor and take it to a specialist to have it tested.

With respect to tapping the starter, if you tapped the starter and then tried to start it and it was no go, having somebody tap it while you try to start it is probably not going to make a difference. The tapping business is very much a Hail Mary attempt to get it to start.

Really appreciate the help. It seems to be the starter since I've tested and confirmed there is electricity going into it but its just not doing anything.

 

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

If you think it's the starter, you can easily check it using a single jumper wire.

Leave the IG key out of the cyl and keep the gear in neutral.

Remove the air box for better access.

At the side of the starter, you will see single BLK/WHT wire with small black conical shape sleeve.
It has 250 size spade female terminal inside.

Pull it out to expose the mating male terminal on the starter body.
This is the solenoid terminal.

Inside the fuse box nearby, there is a jump start terminal.
Connect one end of the jumper wire there.
Doesn't need to be thick gauge since you only need to activate the solenoid.
Just make sure not to touch any metal objects with the other end.

Now prepare yourself with cranking noise at the next step.
It would be loud.

Connect the jumper wire to the solenoid terminal for like 1sec.

The engine should crank but without firing up as there is no power to the ECU and thus, no fuel or IG.

If the starter makes single click but no cranking, then it's very likely to be the L-shaped solenoid terminal being worn out.

If the starter cranks the engine, then you have other issues.

If you can remove the starter, you have the ability to carry out DIY repair of the starter.
Parts can be found on amazon, ebay, etc.
Just search for 'Denso starter solenoid terminal repair' or something similar.
There are two different spec for the repair kit depending on the starter model (may be hard to read but it's on the side of the starter body) so just ask the seller on which one to use.

If you prefer quick swap, you can get hold of the re-manufactured new Denso starter but since you have to remove the starter first and the repair parts is so cheap, worth trying the DIY repair first.


By the way 11V on the dash is bit low.
Normally, you would see at least 12V but the calibration of the volt meter could move over the years.
Just measure the battery voltage using the multimeter to confirm the real voltage.

For your reference, while cranking, you should be able to hold above 10V with the healthy battery.
Your starter is not cranking so you won't see such voltage drop even when you go into P3 START position.


Kaz

 

[Old Guy]

Really appreciate the help. It seems to be the starter since I've tested and confirmed there is electricity going into it but its just not doing anything.

If you measured the voltage on the large terminal on the starter, that is not a particularly useful measurement. That large terminal is effectively connected to the battery + terminal all the time. The connections are large and usually don't fail (except at the battery + post which you have already ruled out). If you measured the voltage at the starter S terminal (the black/white wire Kaz was referring to) and you got +12v when somebody turned the key to start, then the starter has failed.

 

[MashimaroNSX]

If you measured the voltage on the large terminal on the starter, that is not a particularly useful measurement. That large terminal is effectively connected to the battery + terminal all the time. The connections are large and usually don't fail (except at the battery + post which you have already ruled out). If you measured the voltage at the starter S terminal (the black/white wire Kaz was referring to) and you got +12v when somebody turned the key to start, then the starter has failed.

Understood, I had a mechanic friend come by finally after a busy work schedule and he tested the starter and it seems to work fine. Upon further inspection he took out his volt meter and found that the ground is all wonky and not at 0 at all. So it turns out Drew was right all along initially and Old Guy suspected it as well. It was a high resistance short due to an internally corroded ground wire to the front battery. Again thanks everyone for your input on this. This is why the prime community is the best.

 

[Old Guy]

Understood, I had a mechanic friend come by finally after a busy work schedule and he tested the starter and it seems to work fine. Upon further inspection he took out his volt meter and found that the ground is all wonky and not at 0 at all. So it turns out Drew was right all along initially and Old Guy suspected it as well. It was a high resistance short due to an internally corroded ground wire to the front battery. Again thanks everyone for your input on this. This is why the prime community is the best.

As I noted, the battery ground connection has been a failure point. Ben from Daisy Auto (user Redbird??) was making upgraded ground cables for the NSX to address the failure problem. You might want to PM him to see if he is still selling the cables.

Edit - if the battery ground cable is flakey you might want to have your mechanic friend look at the engine ground cable connections - particularly if you drive your car in wet conditions. They can also corrode and lead to similar problems.

 

[MashimaroNSX]

As I noted, the battery ground connection has been a failure point. Ben from Daisy Auto (user Redbird??) was making upgraded ground cables for the NSX to address the failure problem. You might want to PM him to see if he is still selling the cables.

Edit - if the battery ground cable is flakey you might want to have your mechanic friend look at the engine ground cable connections - particularly if you drive your car in wet conditions. They can also corrode and lead to similar problems.

Will most definitely check the other connections but as of now a new ground wire has been replaced and the car fires right up like nothing happened.

 

[danny49]

Clutch safety switch broken, very easy fix, looks like grommet plug Oh and get rid of that Optima battery, worst battery on the market

 

[Old Guy]

Clutch safety switch broken, very easy fix, looks like grommet plug Oh and get rid of that Optima battery, worst battery on the market

Clutch safety switch is definitely one of the possible causes of failure of the starter motor to engage. It is definitely not the only cause.

I am more curious about why you think the Optima battery is the worst battery on the market. Just personal experience or do you have a larger set of data points to support the claim? A number of users on Prime seem to wax ecstatic about the Optima. I am curious because after having gone to the effort of sand blasting and coating my battery tie down to remove corrosion the sealed no leak aspect of the Optima has some appeal and I was considering it as replacement candidate when my current battery shuffles off this mortal coil..

 

[danny49]

Clutch safety switch is definitely one of the possible causes of failure of the starter motor to engage. It is definitely not the only cause.

I am more curious about why you think the Optima battery is the worst battery on the market. Just personal experience or do you have a larger set of data points to support the claim? A number of users on Prime seem to wax ecstatic about the Optima. I am curious because after having gone to the effort of sand blasting and coating my battery tie down to remove corrosion the sealed no leak aspect of the Optima has some appeal and I was considering it as replacement candidate when my current battery shuffles off this mortal coil..

ALL newer batterys are sealed, My optima only lasted 2 years, Just think there overpriced. Best bet is a Acura battery, I think Intersate makes them , been using them for 15 years

 

[Old Guy]

ALL newer batterys are sealed, My optima only lasted 2 years, Just think there overpriced. Best bet is a Acura battery, I think Intersate makes them , been using them for 15 years

New conventional batteries may be maintenance free and don't have the old style individual cell caps; but they are definitely vented and corrosive components do make there way out of the battery. The Optima batteries are completely sealed and can be mounted in any position. Don't try that with your conventional maintenance free battery or even with some other AGM batteries. I believe the Bosch AGM batteries are also completely sealed and are not sensitive to mounting position.

 

[Hass]

My optima battery lasted less than 2 years.

I had a similar issue with my NSX, turned out to be Ignition Coil fuse (30 amp). Popped couple of times best before 1 of the coils went bad.

 

[danny49]

Lithium batteries have come a long way, no acid, Have one in my motorcycle better cranking, seems to last a long time, and of course extremely light wieght