- $16,000,000,000,000.00

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I agree with you, that is why China left them alone after 1997, but that will never happen because of the exploitation by our politicians here.

It will be a steep uphill to climb for a while, I'm looking at leaving California if my folks ever move back to Taiwan. I'm not sure if I want to do the same but another state will be nice. Lived in Seattle area for three years and I really like it up there, but I would mind try some other states.

As for corporations and their tax rates, here's Canada and what happened up there, or a lack of what didn't

http://www.politicususa.com/canada-proves-conservatives-wrong-cutting-corporate-taxes-30-jobs.html

Bush's cuts have been around for 12 years so what's going on with all these lower taxes and the beautiful economy they create :confused:
 
As for corporations and their tax rates, here's Canada and what happened up there, or a lack of what didn't

http://www.politicususa.com/canada-proves-conservatives-wrong-cutting-corporate-taxes-30-jobs.html

Bush's cuts have been around for 12 years so what's going on with all these lower taxes and the beautiful economy they create :confused:

Using Canada? What do they have? Most of the nation is inhabitable, the only places that are happening are mostly due to import of rich immigrants from Asia. At least they are smart enough to drill and sell to pay for entitlement programs. We have nothing.

People from Hong Kong saved the economy of Vancouver BC, and that spread to Toronto.

In most cases, nations that did well economically all have lower taxes in all spectrum and those with high tax burden are all collapsing.

Japan, most of the western European nations, USA, etc. are all on the verge of financial meltdown.
 
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In a couple months someone's going to start a thread "17,000,000,000,000.00" I gave up, why not just sit back and watch it all go to Hell, because there isn't a Damn thing you can do about it.
 
So what if we don't pay China back, it is only 7% of the debt the Federal Government owed. What about the 60 plus % the government owes to private investors, bond holders, etc?

This is true. Ultimately it's a hidden tax.
They borrow money, and then inflate it's value away.
The tax is only on savers. It's a subsidy on borrowers.

The end-game is the currency will default. This is fact. Every currency in the history of man always has eventually. So the game is to live as large as possible, default, do it again.

IMO, people who think the debt is objectively a 'bad' thing are way off base.
The US has some of the smartest economist in the world doing things on purpose.

The concept of paying down debt in a recession is what causes depressions. Anyone who tells you we should have paid down the debt over the last 3 years doesn't understand economics.
Even now, if we started paying down the debt today, because we're still so fragile, it would likely cause ANOTHER recession. Back to back.

Don't listen to the idiots on TV. They're trying to trick you.
The debt isn't a big deal right now. Jobs are.
 
It's a terrible milestone.

Fix the fiscal issues and everything else will sort out.

We need:

-Congressional term limits.

-A balanced budget amendment.

-Flat tax for everyone. And if you don't pay federal income taxes...you don't vote. Period. If you aren't contributing to the country- you shouldn't have a say in how things run.

It all makes perfect sense, for both sides of the aisle.
 
This is true. Ultimately it's a hidden tax.
They borrow money, and then inflate it's value away.
The tax is only on savers. It's a subsidy on borrowers.

The end-game is the currency will default. This is fact. Every currency in the history of man always has eventually. So the game is to live as large as possible, default, do it again.

IMO, people who think the debt is objectively a 'bad' thing are way off base.
The US has some of the smartest economist in the world doing things on purpose.

The concept of paying down debt in a recession is what causes depressions. Anyone who tells you we should have paid down the debt over the last 3 years doesn't understand economics.
Even now, if we started paying down the debt today, because we're still so fragile, it would likely cause ANOTHER recession. Back to back.

Don't listen to the idiots on TV. They're trying to trick you.
The debt isn't a big deal right now. Jobs are.

Some good points but things are not quite that simple (IMO). Debt cannot continue to grow at a greater rate than GDP (it can grow to "infinity" interestingly enough) indefinitely. The debt is not a big deal right now - this is fact based on the extremely low rates on our 10 yr treasury, etc. The problem, however, is there is no guarantee this will continue - in fact, there is a guarantee it will not.

When the market decides to charge our government higher interest rates, more and more government revenue will be allocated to pay interest. This is not fantasy, theoretical, or debatable. We are borrowing money to pay interest on borrowed money - fact. It rarely takes more than 12 months for the system to collapse once "Minsky moment" is reached (usually used in a different context but the concept is still valid here). If anyone is remotely interested in sovereign debt (everyone literate should be at this point), please read “This Time is Different” by Rogoff. You’ll know more about sovereign debt than 99.99% of the population if you read this relatively short book. We could be one week or five decades from the Minsky moment. Frankly, educated people's apathy toward the debt problem is a bit confusing to me given the situation in Europe. If it were not for the ECB and Germany's incredible "generosity," Spain, Italy, Greece, etc. (~4 trillion of global GDP out of a total of ~60 trillion) would be in complete chaos. Chaos you and I are probably not willing to endure. Greece has already declined to a barter economy making long term investment all but impossible.

Due to our good fortune, the U.S. does not need to "fix" our debt problem within the next 3-5 years. We do, however, (IMO) need to lay out a credible plan to do so. Once the yields start spiking our government will have to act very quickly to enact a credible debt plan or it’ll be the end game. How much faith would you put into that occurring? They haven't put a budget together in 3 years.

Let me add a small but potentially critical side note - the Federal Reserve has flooded the financial sector will trillions upon trillions of dollars to shore up capital levels and try to increase the velocity of money. The vast majority of these funds have flowed directly into treasuries for a variety of reasons (more detail upon request). My educated guess is a maximum of a couple dozen humans really understand the impact this is having on our treasury market. It is totally possible, if not likely, >66% of treasury buying is “artificial,” i.e. the demand is not what it appears. I hope that is not the case. Lastly, we do have many intelligent economists working on this issue but they are not in control! Few economists agree with how Congress is handling the issue and true economists like Bernanke (I have a soft spot for Ol' Ben despite my frequent criticisms because he wrote several of my undergrad text books) have repeatedly stated they cannot compensate for indecisiveness/recklessness by Congress.
 
We need:

-Congressional term limits.

-A balanced budget amendment.

-Flat tax for everyone. And if you don't pay federal income taxes...you don't vote. Period. If you aren't contributing to the country- you shouldn't have a say in how things run.

It all makes perfect sense, for both sides of the aisle.

I agree with your 3 major points. Personally I think a term in congress should be for 4 years with 2 term limits. 2 term limits for Senate, President etc. After those 2 terms you shouldn't be allowed back in D.C.

I just don't see us getting approval for only have tax contributing citizens getting a vote.
 
I agree with your 3 major points. Personally I think a term in congress should be for 4 years with 2 term limits. 2 term limits for Senate, President etc. After those 2 terms you shouldn't be allowed back in D.C.

I just don't see us getting approval for only have tax contributing citizens getting a vote.

We won't. It'll be considered a direct attack against unemployed minorities and women (homemakers). Won't be hard to argue that either. Now if you wanted to suspend the right to vote for those on government assistance for over x amount of years that may work (seriously doubt it but at least you could formulate a logical appeal).
 
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This helps put things into context:

"In FY2012, as of the end of July 2012, the Treasury Department has spent $323 Billion of your money on interest payments to the holders of the National Debt. Compare that to NASA at $21B, Department of Education at $60B, and Department of Transportation at $70B!"

$323 billion is almost exactly half of what the Department of Defense has spent on the War on Iraq. This is a war that lasted many years. Over the same time period interest payments could have paid for the War in Iraq several times over. Note most of those payments go "back" to U.S. citizens and that segment of the population also pays most federal taxes. In effect it squeezes the federal budget like a noose, sending the interest payments to the upper class, banks, and foreign governments.
 
In a couple months someone's going to start a thread "17,000,000,000,000.00" I gave up, why not just sit back and watch it all go to Hell, because there isn't a Damn thing you can do about it.

You are wrong.

Clint Eastwood:" You... we own this country. Not you or me own it. Politicians are employees of ours. If they don't do job, we got to let them go!"
 
You are wrong.

Clint Eastwood:" You... we own this country. Not you or me own it. Politicians are employees of ours. If they don't do job, we got to let them go!"

That's the problem. The "bosses" are idiots. Think about how stupid the average person is. Then realize that 50% of the population is even STUPIDER than that! And they all get a vote. That is much of the problem with modern candidates in that they appeal to the masses because that's the only way to get elected. That's why regardless of which party they are from, they seem equally fake and equally useless. It's like food, when a group has to order the most universally appealing food, then it tends to be generic and simple. Otherwise, certain groups of people won't like it. But that prevents you from really exploring into finer cuisine.

Without derailing this thread, the problem is an inherent flaw with democracy. As Tocqueville predicted, the problem with democracy is that inherent force towards equality will always favor the masses and perpetuate the forces towards the lowest common denominator. For example, if 51% of the population was on welfare and there was a vote to increase welfare benefits or decrease benefits, guess which would win despite the fact it would sink the economy? Factor that with the "Idiocracy" theory of a faster growing "idiot" population, and I've come to realize we are all screwed. :smile:
 
Somedays I have faith that we can turn this country around. Then I find out that a lot of people get there news from ET, I say "eff" it. Then I a few weeks ago there was an abc poll that showed 94% of African Americans for Obama and 0% for Romney. This country is divided. And with it being so divided this debt is going no where, only up.
 
Somedays I have faith that we can turn this country around. Then I find out that a lot of people get there news from ET, I say "eff" it. Then I a few weeks ago there was an abc poll that showed 94% of African Americans for Obama and 0% for Romney. This country is divided. And with it being so divided this debt is going no where, only up.

The sad part about that, the vast majority of them are only voting on him based on color. I don't care who someone votes for, I only ask that they make an educated vote. :frown:
 
The sad part about that, the vast majority of them are only voting on him based on color. I don't care who someone votes for, I only ask that they make an educated vote. :frown:

You know I am not keeping up with this thread because I don't really care to get into anything political anymore especially yet one more started by Vance...

But I have to say, if I was black and I just read that I'd be a little offended. Don't you think you're making a huge generalization and assumption on your part that they vote "just because he is black"? That suggests that if I am a black man, I don't really think for myself, I just vote based on race. How is a man who happens to be black any different than any other guy who is white or Asian or short or tall in terms of ability to think, and to make an educted choice? If you don't make an "educated" vote, you are just dumb, and I can assure you there are plenty of dummies who are white. And I also assure you that everyone that votes thinks they are making an educated choice and they guy who is voting otherwise is the "uneducated" one.

If Obama received a majority of votes from African Americans it can be for many reasons, most of which probably are related to his political beliefs and policies. I don't think you will see Herman Caine voting for Obama, and I seriously doubt that he has near the support of african Americans that Obama does... That is because his policies and beliefs are different. He is also black you know...
 
You know I am not keeping up with this thread because I don't really care to get into anything political anymore especially yet one more started by Vance...

But I have to say, if I was black and I just read that I'd be a little offended. Don't you think you're making a huge generalization and assumption on your part that they vote "just because he is black"? That suggests that if I am a black man, I don't really think for myself, I just vote based on race. How is a man who happens to be black any different than any other guy who is white or Asian or short or tall in terms of ability to think, and to make an educted choice? If you don't make an "educated" vote, you are just dumb, and I can assure you there are plenty of dummies who are white. And I also assure you that everyone that votes thinks they are making an educated choice and they guy who is voting otherwise is the "uneducated" one.

If Obama received a majority of votes from African Americans it can be for many reasons, most of which probably are related to his political beliefs and policies. I don't think you will see Herman Caine voting for Obama, and I seriously doubt that he has near the support of african Americans that Obama does... That is because his policies and beliefs are different. He is also black you know...
+1
inappropriate post on several levels.
 
Gentle reminder boys and girls.......

This thread gets reviewed regularly and it is trending toward a lockdown so please watch the comments.
 
Political correctness, what a drag. We all took a hit the day it was decided that making sure someone isn't offended is more important than the free and open exchange of ideas.
 
Political correctness, what a drag. We all took a hit the day it was decided that making sure someone isn't offended is more important than the free and open exchange of ideas.

How is saying "black people only vote for Obama because he is black" the "free and open exchange of ideas"?
 
Didn't go through the morass of politically charged social threads so I'll keep my thoughts to myself.

In discussion b/t a friend and I couple of days ago, we talked about moving to a gold standard. I'd previously thought moving back to a gold standard was ridiculous (we didn't have 16 trillion in debt) but considering the new record level and that it's supposed to be 25 trillion by 2025 - it's worth a look. In an effort to appease the mass of voters, the national debt will be inflated away. Gold would, seemingly, provide a good defense against this. But moving back would also cause a massive shift in the attitude of our govt and financial instituations. Maybe more harm than good in the short term? The theory is sound but we can't kill the patient to attack the disease. It has to be pragmatic.
 
Show me where it was said "black people only vote for Obama because he is black."

Russ I don't want to make any more comments about this. I consider hijacker a friend and he may want to chime in himself and say something. I don't want to keep taking this down some path. I hope you understand.
 
Russ I don't want to make any more comments about this. I consider hijacker a friend and he may want to chime in himself and say something. I don't want to keep taking this down some path. I hope you understand.

images
 
Some good points but things are not quite that simple (IMO). Debt cannot continue to grow at a greater rate than GDP (it can grow to "infinity" interestingly enough) indefinitely. The debt is not a big deal right now - this is fact based on the extremely low rates on our 10 yr treasury, etc. The problem, however, is there is no guarantee this will continue - in fact, there is a guarantee it will not.

When the market decides to charge our government higher interest rates, more and more government revenue will be allocated to pay interest. This is not fantasy, theoretical, or debatable. We are borrowing money to pay interest on borrowed money - fact. It rarely takes more than 12 months for the system to collapse once "Minsky moment" is reached (usually used in a different context but the concept is still valid here). If anyone is remotely interested in sovereign debt (everyone literate should be at this point), please read “This Time is Different” by Rogoff. You’ll know more about sovereign debt than 99.99% of the population if you read this relatively short book. We could be one week or five decades from the Minsky moment. Frankly, educated people's apathy toward the debt problem is a bit confusing to me given the situation in Europe. If it were not for the ECB and Germany's incredible "generosity," Spain, Italy, Greece, etc. (~4 trillion of global GDP out of a total of ~60 trillion) would be in complete chaos. Chaos you and I are probably not willing to endure. Greece has already declined to a barter economy making long term investment all but impossible.

Due to our good fortune, the U.S. does not need to "fix" our debt problem within the next 3-5 years. We do, however, (IMO) need to lay out a credible plan to do so. Once the yields start spiking our government will have to act very quickly to enact a credible debt plan or it’ll be the end game. How much faith would you put into that occurring? They haven't put a budget together in 3 years.

Let me add a small but potentially critical side note - the Federal Reserve has flooded the financial sector will trillions upon trillions of dollars to shore up capital levels and try to increase the velocity of money. The vast majority of these funds have flowed directly into treasuries for a variety of reasons (more detail upon request). My educated guess is a maximum of a couple dozen humans really understand the impact this is having on our treasury market. It is totally possible, if not likely, >66% of treasury buying is “artificial,” i.e. the demand is not what it appears. I hope that is not the case. Lastly, we do have many intelligent economists working on this issue but they are not in control! Few economists agree with how Congress is handling the issue and true economists like Bernanke (I have a soft spot for Ol' Ben despite my frequent criticisms because he wrote several of my undergrad text books) have repeatedly stated they cannot compensate for indecisiveness/recklessness by Congress.

Bingo. The Fed is buying treasuries at a massive clip....keeping the demand up and artificially lowering interest rates. There are talks of QE3, too. Scary. :frown:
 
as Bob hinted,all these threads that speak of creed/color/religion/poltical views are all individual choices,one no better than the next,but we all have our own strong opinion.If the color of your skin or for that matter upbringing is your major reason for voting how you do ,then fine...but to argue about why that is ok or not is what will get this thread delated.
 
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