zanardi vs. na2 type-s

[swerve2007]

i figured people who actually track their cars can answer my question-

-what is the handling difference between the 1997-2001 na2 type-s (zanardi) suspension and the newer 2002+ na2 type-s setup? (shocks not sways).
obviously the newer setup will be a bit smoother having more oil volume etc.

is the newer setup worth the money vs. the zanardi?

thx for input.

 

[MJK]

You'll find this has been well covered if you search.

Zanardi springs are linear. The 02 type S springs are progressive. I would make my decision based on that. A lot of spring rates are here but I have never seen the rates of the new type S suspension published.

As for whether anything is 'worth it', I think that is impossible to say without knowing your goals. Street? Track? Do you care about ride height? Comfort vs performance? etc.

 

[swerve2007]

thx,
yes i did the search, read the info, i know the difference in specs, looks, bling bs etc.:wink:

simply asking if anyone had both setups installed or driven cars with them, and what was the handling difference perception, was it noticeable, was the car more composed etc. i assumed that by asking about thiese particular setups they will be judged in their respective field- spirited street driving with occasional track day- just like what they were meant to be used. i presume racing environment requires more dedicated setup hence i wasn't concerned about that portion.
so far when i read replies to the post i have searched, they are full of meaningless replies by people voicing their opinions on what THEY have, what THEY think should be used etc, highjacking the posts and skewing the information.
i am just trying to get an answer from someone that has some actual expeience, not hearsay.

 

[Gansan]

I don't think there is a difference between the new and old Type-S suspension. This was a misconception espoused by Keiichi Tsuchiya in an episode of Best Motoring when they test the 2002 Type S. He talks about the improvements he feels in the new Type S vs. the old one--but a subtitle underneath while he talks has a correction saying according to Honda, there were no changes made--indicating the difference he feels is actually due to the wider rear tires and 17" fronts. SoS further propagated this misstatement by mentioning the difference between old and new Type S in their website.

HyperREV does not note any difference between old and new Type S models in their 2002 NSX volume.

 

[MJK]

You don't need to look at Hyperrev, just look at the spring coils. Also (and previously mentioned) the dampers are different.

Uniform coils = linear spring.

Zanardi pictured above

Unevenly spaced coils = progressive springs.

Type S Zero pictured above


As for the question of personal experience. I have the former and have not ridden in the latter. Mine did does quite well on the street and on the track. I consider it about as stiff as you want on the street - fine for smooth streets and not pleasant on rough ones. BIG improvement in the twisties. Nice turn in. Much less body roll on the track (see attached pic - orange is stock & mine is zanardi). I am very happy with my setup and it sounds like you have a similar goals.

Academically speaking, progressive springs should be a little smoother riding and linear ones a little more crisp.

 

[swerve2007]

thanks guys for the input,
yes, the progressive springs will be smoother on the street which would be a bonus, of course. i am pretty curious about the effect of larger oil volume in the new shocks. coming from the bike world experience, increase of the oil volume flow through the shim stack always improved the suspension action as well as decrease fade. it surely is the case with the 2002+ setup, i am just trying to justify (if at all) the $1k price difference and if the difference in performance is truly noticeable.

 

[Gansan]

You don't need to look at Hyperrev, just look at the spring coils. Also (and previously mentioned) the dampers are different.

Uniform coils = linear spring.

Zanardi pictured above

Unevenly spaced coils = progressive springs.

Type S Zero pictured above


As for the question of personal experience. I have the former and have not ridden in the latter. Mine did does quite well on the street and on the track. I consider it about as stiff as you want on the street - fine for smooth streets and not pleasant on rough ones. BIG improvement in the twisties. Nice turn in. Much less body roll on the track (see attached pic - orange is stock & mine is zanardi). I am very happy with my setup and it sounds like you have a similar goals.

Academically speaking, progressive springs should be a little smoother riding and linear ones a little more crisp.

Hold on now, what makes you think the Type S Zero suspension is the same as Type S suspension? It is not! The Type S Zero, if I recall correctly, has the same springs and dampers from the NA1 NSX-R but uses a larger rear sway bar. The Type S--from any year--does NOT have remote reservoirs on its dampers. You can't point to S Zero suspension and then make statements about the Type S.

The S Zero was discontinued when the 2002 facelift was done. There are no 2002-2005 Type S Zero models.

 

[swerve2007]

ok, if thats the case then i was mislead. i was under impression that the type-s was changed to external reservoir in 2002, using the same shock body as nsx-r but softer springs and damping. isn't that what SoS is selling for $1600+?
does type-s zero shocks are really the same as nsx-r as far as spring rates and damping? are you completely sure that type-s of newer vintage has no external reservoirs? if all those statements are correct then the issue is resolved!

 

[SaberX]

I just pulled the trigger on the SoS NA-2 Type S suspension. I should have it in another 6 weeks or so. It's special order from Japan so order it with enough lead time for you.

 

[swerve2007]

ok,
just talked to chris at sos and he confirmed that you were right- the only type-s with reservoirs IS the type-s zero. like you stated, all 'regular' type-s, including the one sold by SOS are reservoir-less.
Soooo, now comparing apples to apples, the changes from na2 type-s to 2002+ na2 are negligable and i am good to go!
thanks for input!

 

[MJK]

ok,
just talked to chris at sos and he confirmed that you were right- the only type-s with reservoirs IS the type-s zero. like you stated, all 'regular' type-s, including the one sold by SOS are reservoir-less.
Soooo, now comparing apples to apples, the changes from na2 type-s to 2002+ na2 are negligable and i am good to go!
thanks for input!

This is my understanding as well.

Except as mentioned in my original post that I believe the Zanardi springs are linear and the newer types s one are progressive. I don't know the difference in the spring rates, because as I mentioned before I have never seen them published for the newer type S. So, probably negligible but no data to prove that.

Gansan,

I never said S and Szero were the same, nor did I mention remote reservoirs. I couldn't find a picture of the 02+ NA2 type s readily, so I used that one to illustrate the difference between progressive and linear springs. Dampers should match the spring, so I assume they are at least differently valved as well.

I had this same discussion with folks years ago when I bought mine. They were answered by people I trust and I have never had a reason to doubt what they were saying. I recall seeing a pic of the springs, but can't find it. I'll admit that I have never really had a reason to dig into this terribly far since purchase. I prefer a linear spring, and I don't like showa dampers so for me Zanardi+Koni was better and cheaper. Verified at the time by a couple track rats and I was and am very happy.

If you find a pic of an 02+ NA2 type S with evenly spaced coils then I will freely admit I was wrong. I don't think I am, and hope not for SaberX's sake because he will have significantly overpaid if so.

Regarding the NA1R and NA2 Szero being the same. I honestly don't know. They look the same to me but I've never seen any data either way. I'll take your word for it. Good info to have.

 

[Gansan]

This is my understanding as well.

Except as mentioned in my original post that I believe the Zanardi springs are linear and the newer types s one are progressive. I don't know the difference in the spring rates, because as I mentioned before I have never seen them published for the newer type S. So, probably negligible but no data to prove that.

Gansan,

I never said S and Szero were the same, nor did I mention remote reservoirs. I couldn't find a picture of the 02+ NA2 type s readily, so I used that one to illustrate the difference between progressive and linear springs. Dampers should match the spring, so I assume they are at least differently valved as well.

I had this same discussion with folks years ago when I bought mine. They were answered by people I trust and I have never had a reason to doubt what they were saying. I recall seeing a pic of the springs, but can't find it. I'll admit that I have never really had a reason to dig into this terribly far since purchase. I prefer a linear spring, and I don't like showa dampers so for me Zanardi+Koni was better and cheaper. Verified at the time by a couple track rats and I was and am very happy.

If you find a pic of an 02+ NA2 type S with evenly spaced coils then I will freely admit I was wrong. I don't think I am, and hope not for SaberX's sake because he will have significantly overpaid if so.

Regarding the NA1R and NA2 Szero being the same. I honestly don't know. They look the same to me but I've never seen any data either way. I'll take your word for it. Good info to have.

I agree with you in that I'd like to have more definitive proof than my own deductions and reasoning. So I asked swerve via pm to perhaps take some pictures of his springs and dampers of the "new" Type S units when he gets them. I have some good pictures of my Zanardi suspension, so we can compare the pictures (assuming he agrees to do it).

I don't think you can necessarily infer that the springs are functionally progressive by observing their coil spacing. When the car's weight is on them, the closely spaced coils at the ends of the spring are touching and do not contribute to the spring rate. I have observed this in my car. A possibility is that they serve as built-in tender springs to keep the spring from rattling at full droop. Additionally, the Type S, Zanardi, and NSX-R (new and old) units have not had progressive rates published--only a single rate. In other cars such as the Integra Type R, Honda has clearly published multiple spring rates when they are progressive.

 

[swerve2007]

the shocks i am getting are na2 but 97-01 vintage. thats why i was so curious about the 2002+ na2's.
the confusion on my part was not created by you guys but on post and pics of parts for sale. i saw a set of type-s zero's listed simply as 2002+ type-s and they had the reservoirs. anyway, with so many options out there it is nice to have a place to ask, so thanks.


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i guess i am back to 'square-one'. the set was sold to someone else- i guess he couldn't wait for me to clarify things.