Why not forced over NA?

[Ebanks]

Hey guys, I just have a couple of quick questions....

If the charger kits are only doing 310ish HP to the wheels, why doesn't anyone do a N/A build?

I mean, if you are going to spend $10000 or so to go forced induction, that would build one hell of a Naturally Aspirated motor, and with a good builder behind it, I don't see any reason why you couldn't hit 310ish RWHP NA, and it seems to me it would be a hell of a lot more unique....

Someone, please tell me why!?!?!

Thanks,

Ethan

 

[Ebanks]

Sorry, that topic made not sense.... It should say "Why not NA over forced?!!?", but the question still stands the same... why?

-Ethan

 

[Edo]

I think cost wise its still cheaper to go Supercharger.
I think Andrie Hartanto has a pretty worked up N/A motor..or at least someone did. They mentioned how little the HP gain was, on a N/A engine with CT cams, heads, extrude honed intake, and higher compression, especially considering the cost. Have you SEEN what CT wants for that stuff? Its insane.
Bang for the buck on an NSX engine CT Supercharger is the least expensive (aside from NOS)
Besides..getting it that worked up N/A would make it positively gutless at the bottom end.

 

[James Cruz]

I agree with Edo. I don't think $10,000 is enough cash to build a 300 plus HP N/A motor. Add up the parts and you'll see for yourself. Think of the labor charges!!!

 

[JChoice]

Personally, I think it can be done with enough research.

Aftermarket Cams are good enough now to where they can add lots of high end power without any or extremely minor loss of low end power. It's not uncommon for GSR Integras to gain 20% hp to the wheels without heavy modification.

If there were more people modifying their NSX's and more companies working on NSX parts, I think you would see third generation products for the NSX pushing 300hp gains to the wheels with bolt ons.

I think we're stuck with first/second generation products.

 

[James Cruz]

I think the products and technology are available now to see 300 RWHP. The problem I see is that only one or two companies are in control of the market. Can you justify $3400 for a set of Comptech cams? That doesn't include the labor to pull the motor out and swap them in, plus whatever else needs to be changed in the process. The one thing that we all love about our cars is the one down side to owning them - exclusivity. Few companies are going to spend the cash to R&D parts for the NSX, as there is a limited market to support it.

I once posted some info about a guy that spent almost $11k having a set of CT cams installed (with light head work)in his car. He wished he purchased the SC instead.

I still think that 300 RWHP would be tough to accomplish for $10k IMO. I could be wrong.

Good luck

 

[Ebanks]

Hmmmm, Thanks for the responses, and you all make excellent points.

Let me clarify a bit on what I was thinking.

I was not including Intake/Header/Exhaust in that $10k price, because you would have to buy that on top of the charger too anyways (well, not the intake).

I was thinking about the $10k strictly towards the motor, and I don't think Comptech is who I would have do it, they are a rip off IMHO.

You can run a lot higher compression than stock, so you could pick up some power there. I have a friend who just got his car back up and running (civic si, B16A) and he is running a little over 12:1 compression on pump gas with no problem. Get a J&S Safeguard, and I don't know why you couldn't do 12.5:1 or even 13:1 with good tuning.

In fact, a friend of ours who builds motors has an old civic (88-91 body style), that has a 1.5 liter in it (he destroked the 1.6 that was in it), non vtec, that is running 13:1, and on pump gas he dynoed 231 at the wheels on his break in runs! He was only running it to like 6500 too, because he was breaking it in. Granted he is probably the smartest guy I have ever talked too.

He did over 400 at the wheels with a bolt on Supercharger kit for an Integra Type-R, and it was completely stock motor!

I really just think that NSX parts in general are too expensive for what they are, and what they do (not much from what I have seen). But like you guys said, that is the price of exclusivity.

If I could do 400 RWHP N/A in my NSX could I be the coolest NSX owner in America?

-Ethan

 

[Lud]

310 at the wheels is low for forced induction. I think most of the properly tuned ones are getting a bit more than that.

Certainly it is possible to build an NA NSX that puts out the kind of power you are talking about - the shops building NSX race cars have been doing it for years.

The two problems are the cost (in both time and money) of trying to do it yourself and reliability of the engine once you've built it. I really doubt an ITR putting out 400 rwhp with just a bolt-on supercharger is going to run very long before it develops some problems.

There are many, many variables here but in general you shouldn't expect to run compression as high as a car with a smaller engine can because cylinder volume and bore size play a part in max compression with a given octane fuel before you get detonation.

 

[Ebanks]

Lud,

What kind of power are they making in the race NSXs?

Also, I agree that with higher compression, the wear and tear would be a bit more, but I would think that with a properly designed head, that was more efficient than stock, the stress levels on the motor would be less, while creating more power...?!? Correct me if I am wrong.

Also, about they Type-R, it has been running without a problem for 2+ years now, and his 1.5 liter non vtec hatchback is now charged making upwards of 480 at the wheels..... Daily Driven!

This guy really is smarter than pretty much everyone, he has formula 1 contracts, nascar contracts, national defense contracts (I don't know if he still does that or not), he build top fuel motors, etc., etc.

Anyways, you can check out a bit of info on him at:
www.theoldone.com

That is his page/bulliten board, and it has info on his company. The thing is he really doesn't sell to the public, it is more of a hobby, because obviously those multi-million dollar contracts are more important.... But a friend of mine is real close with him (the kid I referred to earlier with the B16A), and he said he may be able to do some stuff for me.

Later,

Ethan

Remember to let me know what you think about my head efficiency theory......

 

[Lud]

Originally posted by Ebanks:
What kind of power are they making in the race NSXs?

Approaching 500 HP, and that is with the regulation-mandated restrictor plate. But these cars are built from the ground up (custom CF bodies, fully built engines, six-speed sequential transmissions, etc.) and the engines are also designed to be torn down an rebuilt regularly.

the motor would be less, while creating more power...?!? Correct me if I am wrong.

Proper head design is critical.. I do not know how much improvement there is to be had in this area though.

Also, about they Type-R, it has been running without a problem for 2+ years now,

I looked at the website.. That is not a bolt-on kit they bought somewhere, it's one that he is building totally from scratch -- from the custom internals of the blower on up -- and may eventually sell as a kit. That's COMPLETELY different! He also does recommend replacing some drivetrain componends.

This guy obviously knows what he is doing, but the investment to develop this system is obviously very large and it is all custom tuning and R&D work. I do not think you can compare what he is doing to a set of cams or bolt-on blower from Comptech. But it would be very interesting to see what this guy would develop for the NSX! If your friend can get you in the door with this guy I would love to hear the result.

 

[Ebanks]

Yeah, the guy already said that he would be able to work on "something" for me, but to what extent I don't know....

I know he built it up from scratch, but he is planning on marketing it w/ traction control for under $4500!

He is claiming that the one he is going to release is going to be upwards of 350 at the wheels, available to anyone, for only $4500 or so..... All he recommends is getting is a header, an exhaust, and a limited slip, so it is not like there would be a huge investment on top of the kit....

Man wouldn't it be great to be able to spend money like him, just for your Honda "hobby"..... God the stuff I would have

-Ethan

BTW, did you happent to find any info on the blower kit he put together for his 996? He put it together over a couple of weeks from what I understand, and it is supposed to walk all over the new 996 Twin Turbos, and be reliable to boot!

 

[Ebanks]

Here, read this stuff:
http://www.theoldone.com/sc/faq.html

He talks about the kits, the pricing, the reliability, the power, etc. The B16A kit made over 400 RWHP (peak), and more than 200 ft/lbs at 2k RPM, with a peak over 350 ft/lbs!

Come on guys, think what this guy could do with our 3.0 liter, that is a 1.6, BOLT ON KIT!

Hell if he could do 500 RWHP, and 400 ft/lbs I'd pay $10-$15k! I don't know that he would ever undertake an NSX project like that, but let me know if you guys would be interested if he could/would and ill have my friend talk to him about it. It would take a while I am sure to test, build, etc., but it WOULD be worth the wait. He has told us about rolling onto the highway in 5th gear in the type r, at 20 MPH, and it still accelerates faster than a regular one all out!

I think it is BS that we pay $10k + install on a kit that only makes 300-350 RWHP.

-Ethan

 

[jon69]

Originally posted by Ebanks: I don't know that he would ever undertake an NSX project like that, but let me know if you guys would be interested if he could/would and ill have my friend talk to him about it. It would take a while I am sure to test, build, etc., but it WOULD be worth the wait. [/B]

Count me in! If he can develop a 4-500 hp upgrade at a good price, I'd be in to it for sure.

 

[Ebanks]

In case some of you guys have not checked out this guys web page yet, here are some of his accomplishments:

1959: Production of 43.4 BHP @ 21,000 RPM from 100 cc normally aspirated production based two stroke engines.

1969: Constructed Ford BOSS 429 Mustang A/FX S/S Eliminator race car. Set 13 world records in two weeks in competition.

1971: Studied fluid dynamics and began designing the first flow bench that would allow static evaluation and pulsing flow evaluation of cylinder heads, manifolds, fuel systems, and exhaust systems. The flow bench eliminated the need to build engines to specifically test modifications. Pro Stock programs first recipients of technology

1975-79: ENDYN modified Cosworth, including heads and manifolding win INDY 500 for Penske Racing

1983-84: ENDYN unleashes portions of high swirl, high compression, lean burn technology. ENDYN swirl engines dominate 1985 Daytona 500 with track records and overall win. Dominating victories at 1985 NHRA WinterNationals. Convincing and unprecedented victories and world records during the remainder of the season.

Needless to say, he can make the power

-Ethan

 

[Edo]

OK, I'm convinced..what do I have to do to get this guy to build up my engine?

 

[scott]

Hook me up to the juice man! I would purchase the system if I could get the power. I agree with you on the price/hp. The problem is the NSX limited build numbers. The NSX is a finely engineered machine but does not have the volume to drive the unit costs down. The same is exemplified in the aftermarket mod sector. Another possibility would be to go with a short block kit kicking up the displacement. 400 horse for 4k bucks would sell IMO.