Why can't there be more judges like this?

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From CNN 1-5-05

ROCHESTER, New York (AP) -- A Family Court judge who last year stirred debate about parental responsibilities ordered a second drug-addicted woman to have no more children until she proves she can look after the seven she already has.

The 31-year-old mother, identified in court papers only as Judgette W., lost custody of her children, ranging in age from eight months to 12 years, in child-neglect hearings dating back to 2000. Six are in foster care at state expense and one lives with an aunt.

The youngest child and two others tested positive for cocaine at birth and all seven "were removed from her care and custody because she could not and did not take care of them," Judge Marilyn O'Connor said in a December 22 decision made public Tuesday.

"Because every child born deserves a mother and a father, or at the very least a mother or a father, this court is once again taking this unusual step of ordering this biological mother to conceive no more children until she reclaims her children from foster care or other caretakers," O'Connor wrote.

In a similar ruling last March, O'Connor ordered a drug-addicted, homeless mother of four to refrain from bearing children until she won back care of her children. The decision, the first of its kind in New York, is being appealed.

Wisconsin and Ohio have upheld similar rulings involving "deadbeat dads" who failed to pay child support. But in other states, judges have turned back attempts to interfere with a person's right to procreate.

O'Connor said she was not forcing contraception or sterilization on the mother, who had children with seven different men, nor requiring her to get an abortion should she become pregnant. But she warned that the woman could be jailed for contempt if she has another child.

The New York Civil Liberties Union maintained that the opinion cannot be enforced because it "tramples on a fundamental right -- the right to procreate."

"There is no question the circumstances of this case are deeply troubling," said the group's executive director, Donna Lieberman. "But ordering a woman under threat of jail not to have any more babies ... puts the court squarely in the bedroom. And that's no place for the government."
 
Poor kids.

I know "the bedroom" is "no place for the government" but if someone's "right to procreate" gets twisted into their right to have yet ANOTHER cocaine-addicted child, I'm all for taking it away.
 
Funny how they talk about the fundamental right to procreate and forget about the problem of irresponsible procreation; in this case, the (7) children who were born to someone clearly incapable of (or uninterested in) caring for them.

It's like fighting for a person's right to bear arms when that person has clearly had a history of armed robbery. :rolleyes:

This ruling doesn't put the court "in the bedroom". It doesn't say that she can't have sex. I see it as a limit placed on the mother as to how much she can burden an already over burdened child welfare system.
 
Nothing like bad facts to make bad law. It is easy to respect civil rights when people behave responsibly. Principles may become inconvenient, but they should not be ignored.

And no, I don't think this woman should have another child, but I also don't think a court should find her in contempt if she does. The family law system has procedures to address termination of parental rights. If appropriate, they should be used.
 
In The USA we have laws against cruel and unusual punishment. What this woman did was to condemn her children to a life of cruel and unusual punishment. Is she, in doing so, not guilty of breaking the law?
 
MarkB said:
In The USA we have laws against cruel and unusual punishment. What this woman did was to condemn her children to a life of cruel and unusual punishment. Is she, in doing so, not guilty of breaking the law?
I think cruel and unusual only applies to the government. For regular people it's called "assault".

This woman could be charged with assault on her kids, I suppose, but the point here is how to prevent her from having another baby altogether.
 
I think that either of these laws could land the perpetrator in jail. Being in jail may not guarantee 'no more children'; however, it would definitely reduce the possibility.
 
NsXMas said:
Please explain how family law system can prevent another tragedy from happening if the woman chooses to have another drugged baby.

Depending on the law in the particular state, it may be possible to initiate a termination of parental rights (TPR, at least in Wisco) while she is pregnant. That is probably the best it can do.

My point is simply that she has the right to have another drugged baby, like it or not, and there is no way to stop her without violating her civil rights. Some of you think that means we should get rid of her civil rights. I disagree.

The judge has merely threatened to imprison her for contempt if she gets pregnant again. This is not going to prevent her from getting pregnant, it just gets her in trouble if she does. I think the family law system is better equipped to deal with termination of parental rights and I don't want my tax dollars spent to house someone who has a drugged baby. I would rather the money were spent on the child rather than imprisoning the mom.

But what do I know. I am just a civil rights attorney . . .
 
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I fully support the guarantee of fundamental rights to all people. However, there must be a limit to how these rights are used. In this case, there are obvious victims to the use of her right to procreate. The system and especially her existing children are paying the price for her irresponsibility. Where is the line drawn between her rights and those of her children, born and unborn?

From the article, we can possibly extract some of the reasoning to the courts' decision to take custody of her children away from her. Assuming that all reasons were valid, it would be apparent that the court saw her as unfit to care for those children. However, they have left an opening for her to win back custody by somehow proving that she has the ability to care for the seven of them. I think this fair as if she is unable to care for her existing 7 children, her 8th, 9th, 10th children will undoubtedly suffer the same fate. All this while her civil rights are being defended.

She is 31 years old with 7 children that she is unable to take care of. Not a promising trend. I fully understand and defend (quietly :)) the need for the preservation of each individual's civil rights, but when there are innocent victims of one person's exercising of those rights, I think that we need to take a second look at whose rights need to be defended.
 
CokerRat said:
I agree, getting pregnant and then taking drugs throughout the pregnancy is no less negligent than inflicting permanent damage by someone punching her in the stomach over and over.

It would be a good idea to separate the civil concept of negligence from criminal intent.

Punching someone in the stomach over and over is an intentional, criminal act. That is not negligence. If there was a lawsuit, it would be an intentional tort, not negligence.

Taking drugs while pregnant may be negligent, reckless or intentional, but is usually not considered criminal.
 
brahtw8, that's precisely my point. As far as I'm concerned, plugging oneself full of drugs while an infant is connected in-utero is not much different from forcefeeding an infant drugs.

I suggest it ought to be viewed as criminal assault or poisoning. That's exactly what it is!

And yes, I know it will never hapen.
 
As with anything, there are degrees of culpability.

In Wisconsin, criminal intent is 1. intent to cause harm or 2. knowledge that harm was practically certain to result.

There may be some cases where someone that takes drugs during pregnancy has committed a criminal act, but again it is a matter of degree. If the person does not intend to harm the unborn child and does not know that harm is practically certain to result, they do not have the required mental state for a crime that has an element of intent.

Depending on the circumstance, there may be a basis for a negligent or reckless homicide charge or other crimes against persons, such as assault or attempted homicide, but then we get into the definition of a person, etc.
 
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