which wideband to get?
- Thread starter jeffchai
- Start date
AEM UEGO Wideband.
About $300 and well worth it.
About $300 and well worth it.
I don't have an NSX, however, I have been using a PLX Devices WBO2 kit on my Taurus for 3 or 4 years and have no complaints. They have come out with nicer products since I have purchased, but I think they're worth a look.
The innovate is the most accurate IMHO.
I had a eugo before and sold it with my turbo kit. At first i though it was good, but once i installed another kit i used PLX and i personally think it has better results. The reading don't bounce around. PLX are very stable. My friend has a innovate and it seems good to. PLX have the organic screen and the thin version.
Hum, I wonder if your saying bounce around is bad because it was actually good and accurate, the stock computor trys to maintain 14.7 or so and switches maps back and forth, or something like that. So as you drive anywheres but boost, the wideband swings back and forth and yes, drives you crazy if you watch it.
If yours doesn't, then its not accurate enough to detect this and so what good is it?
Just wondering what your saying.
I have the AEM and have a post of mounting it in my old mobile phone control spot. That post is in the FI section.
Trev
If yours doesn't, then its not accurate enough to detect this and so what good is it?
Just wondering what your saying.
I have the AEM and have a post of mounting it in my old mobile phone control spot. That post is in the FI section.
Trev
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I see what your saying. I don't know how to comeback with info so justify what i'm saying other then out of a personal self survey from shops, personal and friends have said the same and agree with what i've said. Then again it can be visual because of the amount of LED's and diameter can be deceptive when it bounces. Anyway's it's my personal opinion and i would still suggest PLX or innovate over the UEGO anytime.
If it is tuned well, a WBO2 should NOT bounce around like a NBO2. A NBO2 will bounce around like crazy at PT driving as it does not have a linear curve for the 0-1v signal. The WBO2 has is linear with a 0-5v signal. There will be minor changes in AFR's while cruising, but a WBO2 should NOT be bouncing around like crazy.
Jason, I like what your saying but what is a WBO2 and what is a NBO2. You went over our heads on that without definition. I have watched HBO when I had illigal Direct TV up here!
Trev
p.s. and yes, at wide open throttle (WOT) there is no bounce on my AEM.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106885&highlight=aem+wideband
Trev
p.s. and yes, at wide open throttle (WOT) there is no bounce on my AEM.
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106885&highlight=aem+wideband
NBO2 = Narrow Band O2
WBO2 = Wideband O2
Most cars (most likely the NSX too, but I'm not sure) have a NBO2 sensor in it. A narrow band O2 does not have a linear signal and is only dealing with 0-1v signals. As you can see from the graph, just a slight change in voltage is a huge change in readings. NBO2's bounce back and forth constantly correcting for a rich or lean condition. They are not very accurate, that is why people install WBO2's for tuning as they are much more accurate... which is a good thing when you're really pushing the power.
A WBO2 uses a 0-5v signal in a linear fasion as pictured below.
Narrow band
Wideband
MOST aftermarket A/F gauges you find from all the big manufacturers are for NBO2 sensors. They will bouce around back and forth at idle and constant throttle. WOT will result in rich and engine decel should result in a lean mixture. Both WB and NB will show rich at WOT and lean at engine decel (provided that's what your engine is doing).
When you dyno your car, the sensor they put at the end of your tail pipe is also a WBO2.
WBO2 = Wideband O2
Most cars (most likely the NSX too, but I'm not sure) have a NBO2 sensor in it. A narrow band O2 does not have a linear signal and is only dealing with 0-1v signals. As you can see from the graph, just a slight change in voltage is a huge change in readings. NBO2's bounce back and forth constantly correcting for a rich or lean condition. They are not very accurate, that is why people install WBO2's for tuning as they are much more accurate... which is a good thing when you're really pushing the power.
A WBO2 uses a 0-5v signal in a linear fasion as pictured below.
Narrow band
Wideband
MOST aftermarket A/F gauges you find from all the big manufacturers are for NBO2 sensors. They will bouce around back and forth at idle and constant throttle. WOT will result in rich and engine decel should result in a lean mixture. Both WB and NB will show rich at WOT and lean at engine decel (provided that's what your engine is doing).
When you dyno your car, the sensor they put at the end of your tail pipe is also a WBO2.
So could my uego have been hooked up to the stock 02's making it a NB or is the uego strictly a WB that came with WB02 sensors. Mine bounces a lot too, makes me wonder.
Probably!
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I’m not really sure where I would have confused anyone (merely tagging off your last post). You have narrowband and wideband sensors and gauges which I have explained. One is not meant to work with the other and bother operate within different parameters. If you bought a wideband kit, use the supplied (or recommended) gauge and sensors.
What I am saying is that a WBO2 shouldn’t be bouncing around at idle and part throttle like the stock NBO2’s.
BTW, there is never too much info… It is too little info that will get you in trouble. If you take the time to understand what I’ve typed, I see little room for error. In fact, if you’re using a WBO2, ESPECIALLY if boosted, you’d be opposite of smart not to learn this.
Hmmm... I don't think this is accurate information.
The bouncing is not caused by the 02 sensor... it's caused by the ECU, and will cause the bouncing no matter what 02 sensor type you're monitoring.
During closed-loop operation (idle and non-WOT scenarios) the ECU is constantly trying to achieve a perfect burn of 14.7:1 (or whatever has been programmed into the ECU). It checks the 02 sensor input for the result. It will see that it is not perfectly 14.7:1 and will change the pulse time of the injectors to try again. This takes place several times per second. We'll assume that it first reads too rich, say, 14.0:1. From here, the ECU tries to lean out the mixture and re-checks and sees 14.1:1 so it continues to lean out the mixture. 14.2:1... 14.3:1... 14.4:1 and so forth until it reaches 14.7:1 and then the ECU see's what it wants but it's still leaning it out so it overshoots by 14.8:1... 14.9:1... 15.0:1 and so forth until the process goes into the other direction.
A wide-band 02 sensor does not change this ECU methodology. All it does is let's you see the results more accurately (which is very important when tuning closer to the edge of safety). A wide-band 02 sensor can display the range of rich to lean in much higher resolution. Really, the narrow-band is very accurate as well, it just has less resolution. It's really accurate right at a small window right at 14.7:1. A little higher or lower than that and the accuracy goes out the window. Which is fine for OEM use because all they care about is 14.7; Anything richer and all they care about is going leaner and anything leaner they just care about going richer.
A properly-working OEM ECU will make an 02 sensor output bounce... that's just how they work. The exception to this is during WOT, when the ECU goes into open-loop operation and ignores the 02 sensor and just goes to whatever is in the fueling table for WOT. Remember that all the 02 sensor does is output a voltage. All that is in question with a wide-band vs. narrow-band 02 sensor is the accuracy of its output, not the operation of the ECU. I've never worked with an aftermarket ECU but I would think they work similarly during non-WOT operation because it would have to deal with idle at different altitudes, different climates and different engine parameters (cold start, hot start, etc.).
If I'm wrong, I'm willing to learn...:redface: but this is my current understanding.
J
Narrowband O2's were mostly meant for 14.7:1, they'll just switch back and forth as the computer corrects the opposite so fast that a motor can stay at x AFR steady. With that said, a properly running car can show a very steady AFR on a wideband.
http://www.gmtcny.com/WBO2S.htm
http://www.gmtcny.com/WBO2S.htm
Hmmm... well you're right that OEM 02 sensors tend to only be accurate around 14.7:1. But how does that affect an ECU that is programmed to only deal with such an 02 sensor? The ECU still only cares if the 02 voltage value is at the specified value that indicates 14.7:1. If it gets a voltage value of x.2x and that indicates rich, it'll try to go leaner. And if it gets a voltage value of x.2xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, it still just tries to go leaner. If there isn't programming in the ECU for calculating down to the thousandth or ten-thousandth of a volt (there isn't) then all it cares about is x.2x and throws out all the rest of the resolution. The accuracy is only for you to monitor, not the ECU. I think I'm talking in circles now...:wink: Bottom line is that the ECU is trying to control the injectors based on the voltage from the 02 sensor and is only programmed to judge if the voltage is more or less than the specified value. The ECU wouldn't know what to do with a value in the thousandths of a volt.
Every 02 sensor I've ever monitored (that was working correctly) fluctuated back and forth past 14.7:1. To my understanding, that's the correct behavior of an ECU striving to achieve 14.7:1. I've even connected digital volt meters that measured to the hundredth of a volt and watched the 02 voltage value swing back and forth on both narrow- and wide-band 02 sensors.
Admittedly, I cut my teeth about ECU programming on a 2G Turbo Eclipse, but the same method is used pretty universally. I've also tuned a supercharged 350Z and witnessed the same behavior (measured on the stock 02 sensor as well as on an aftermarket (UEGO) wide-band unit).
I don't wish to "call you out" in an open forum, but do you have any hands-on experience with this or do you just repeat what you read? I mean no disparagement, but do you have any first-hand experience with monitoring and tuning via 02 voltages? I only ask because perhaps I can learn something. Your description flies in the face of the very basis on which I base my understanding of fueling via modern ECU and fuel injection via closed-loop operation.
Perhaps you're thinking of WOT operation? During WOT, yes, the 02 voltage should get steady, preferably rock solid across the entire RPM band but more typically it moves a few hundredths throughout the RPM band.
What you gain by tuning via a wide-band vs. a narrow-band 02 sensor isn't the ECU being able to have better idle control (the OEM idle control is very efficient as-is) but better view into how rich or lean you are. An OEM 02 sensor can only really accurately tell you rich/lean yes/no... while an aftermarket model can tell you not only that, but how rich and how lean.
J
I'm referring to a WBO2 as a stand-alone unit merely mearuring and displaying via a gauge and/or data logging. This is where your tuning aid is.
What I am saying is the with a car running NBO2's (stock) and having a WBO2 to monitor ACTUAL A/F ratio, you should be bouncing around drastically from lean to rich at idle and part throttle. I have a wide band on my Taurus and have delt with many different WB kits (as well as watched the WB on the dyno before starting the run) and I really don't know how else to explain it to you.
Of course there is going to be minor (VERY MINOR when viewed on a WB gauge) as you can't stay spot on with all the variables in an internal combustion engine.
I think you're going in a different direction here??
Yes, I have some experience here. I did pull 530bhp out of my Taurus.....
What I am saying is the with a car running NBO2's (stock) and having a WBO2 to monitor ACTUAL A/F ratio, you should be bouncing around drastically from lean to rich at idle and part throttle. I have a wide band on my Taurus and have delt with many different WB kits (as well as watched the WB on the dyno before starting the run) and I really don't know how else to explain it to you.
Of course there is going to be minor (VERY MINOR when viewed on a WB gauge) as you can't stay spot on with all the variables in an internal combustion engine.
I think you're going in a different direction here??
Yes, I have some experience here. I did pull 530bhp out of my Taurus.....
Here's what I'm saying:
The 02 sensor does not directly define what the air/fuel mixture is. It only reports it. The only difference between a narrow-band and a wide-band is that the narrow-band can only basically report an accurate voltage right near the desired voltage while a wide-band can report accurate voltages across the entire voltage range.
During idle, PT and other non-WOT situations (closed-loop):
1) the ECU overshoots the desired voltage value
2) the 02 sensor reports the voltage to the ECU
3) the ECU sees that the desired voltage has been overshot
4) the ECU tries to adjust in the other direction
5) return to step #1
What this results in is the ECU constantly overshooting the desired voltage value. If the desired voltage is +0.8V and the 02 sensor reports back a value greater than that, then it adjusts downward; and if it reports back a value less than that, then it adjusts upward. All the ECU knows is that it wants to try to get to +0.8V and it constantly overshoots that value. It does not care that the value is +0.86 or +1V... it just cares that it is greater than +0.8V and it wants to lower it (or raise it, as the case may be when overshot in the other direction). A more accurate +0.86V reading vs +0.89V will not make the ECU do anything different... it just wants to lower the voltage to +0.8V.
What a wide-band 02 sensor lets you do is see exactly the voltage down to the tenths of a volt (or hundredths?). Of course, this value is translated into an A/F ratio for the user but if you know the voltage value that you want, all you have to do is use a digital volt meter with the sensor.
During WOT (open-loop):
The ECU ignores the 02 sensor and just goes to the WOT fuel map and uses those values, regardless of what the 02 sensor is seeing (there's no other step in regards to the 02 sensor).
What happens here is that the ECU is no longer trying to achieve a certain voltage at the 02 sensor. It just uses the WOT fuel table to decide the the amount of time to open the injectors. Because it is constantly injecting a specific amount of fuel, regardless of what the a/f ratio is, the voltage value at the 02 sensor becomes stable and this is where the wide-band is valuable. One can use the wide-band 02 sensor to see whether the a/f ratio is 12.0:1 or 11.9:1 or 12.1:1 (or whatever). The narrow band will also become stable but because the voltage value is only reliable around 14.7:1, when tuning you won't have the same resolution that a wide-band provides and is necessary for safe power.
J
The 02 sensor does not directly define what the air/fuel mixture is. It only reports it. The only difference between a narrow-band and a wide-band is that the narrow-band can only basically report an accurate voltage right near the desired voltage while a wide-band can report accurate voltages across the entire voltage range.
During idle, PT and other non-WOT situations (closed-loop):
1) the ECU overshoots the desired voltage value
2) the 02 sensor reports the voltage to the ECU
3) the ECU sees that the desired voltage has been overshot
4) the ECU tries to adjust in the other direction
5) return to step #1
What this results in is the ECU constantly overshooting the desired voltage value. If the desired voltage is +0.8V and the 02 sensor reports back a value greater than that, then it adjusts downward; and if it reports back a value less than that, then it adjusts upward. All the ECU knows is that it wants to try to get to +0.8V and it constantly overshoots that value. It does not care that the value is +0.86 or +1V... it just cares that it is greater than +0.8V and it wants to lower it (or raise it, as the case may be when overshot in the other direction). A more accurate +0.86V reading vs +0.89V will not make the ECU do anything different... it just wants to lower the voltage to +0.8V.
What a wide-band 02 sensor lets you do is see exactly the voltage down to the tenths of a volt (or hundredths?). Of course, this value is translated into an A/F ratio for the user but if you know the voltage value that you want, all you have to do is use a digital volt meter with the sensor.
During WOT (open-loop):
The ECU ignores the 02 sensor and just goes to the WOT fuel map and uses those values, regardless of what the 02 sensor is seeing (there's no other step in regards to the 02 sensor).
What happens here is that the ECU is no longer trying to achieve a certain voltage at the 02 sensor. It just uses the WOT fuel table to decide the the amount of time to open the injectors. Because it is constantly injecting a specific amount of fuel, regardless of what the a/f ratio is, the voltage value at the 02 sensor becomes stable and this is where the wide-band is valuable. One can use the wide-band 02 sensor to see whether the a/f ratio is 12.0:1 or 11.9:1 or 12.1:1 (or whatever). The narrow band will also become stable but because the voltage value is only reliable around 14.7:1, when tuning you won't have the same resolution that a wide-band provides and is necessary for safe power.
J
I really fail to see why you're posting arguments... I'm not disagreeing.
Do you understand what I'm talking about when I'm referrencing "stand-alone". Stand-alones don't get run into the ECU.
You forgot to mention how when tuning (w/ some aftermarket computers), you can choose whether or not you want the CL fuel corrections to be applied to OL or not....
I think you think you're trying to teach me something but honestly, if you're trying to teach me something, you are sorely wasting your time
We've been talking about two different uses. FORGET the ECU, I'm talking about SA and which one is more beneficial for tuning.
The purpose of my posts stemmed from this:
I did not intend to try to teach you anything... I even went as far as saying that I was open to hearing where my understanding was wrong if you had a different idea. I was just describing my understanding of how the ECU works and how the 02 sensor works with it. You said a properly tuned ECU wouldn't have the 02 sensor voltage fluctuate and I thought it was normal behavior for it to do that and everything else was my explanation of why I thought that. Not as a lesson to you, but to see if you concurred with my understanding.
My understanding is also that a SA ECU would have the bouncing back and forth, though I've never tuned a SA.
J
I really fail to see why you're posting arguments... I'm not disagreeing.
Do you understand what I'm talking about when I'm referrencing "stand-alone". Stand-alones don't get run into the ECU.
You forgot to mention how when tuning (w/ some aftermarket computers), you can choose whether or not you want the CL fuel corrections to be applied to OL or not....
I think you think you're trying to teach me something but honestly, if you're trying to teach me something, you are sorely wasting your time
I did not intend to try to teach you anything... I even went as far as saying that I was open to hearing where my understanding was wrong if you had a different idea. I was just describing my understanding of how the ECU works and how the 02 sensor works with it. You said a properly tuned ECU wouldn't have the 02 sensor voltage fluctuate and I thought it was normal behavior for it to do that and everything else was my explanation of why I thought that. Not as a lesson to you, but to see if you concurred with my understanding.
My understanding is also that a SA ECU would have the bouncing back and forth, though I've never tuned a SA.
J
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I still don't think you're getting what I'm saying. We weren't talking about how the ECU works.
When I reference a properly tuned ECU, I reference a car that is running the way it should. The O2/gauge setup (both WB/NB) will read the way they are supposed to regardless of what is controlling the engine.
In the last post, I mentioned to forget about the ECU/PCM. The engine is just running... We don't care how. Hook up a NBO2 and a WBO2 sensor with gauges to work for them respectively (for viewing purposes ONLY):
At PT and idle, the NB gauge will bounce back and forth from extreme rich to extreme lean. The WB will not bounce around drastically. There will be very minor fluctuations, but it won't go from red to green over and over again.
Now with that information, you can use your displays of A/F's to aid the user to tune with whatever means being used.
As far as an ECU that runs off a NBO2 (some newer cars are now using WB), it will maintain and AFR as you described.
I really fail to see why you're posting arguments... I'm not disagreeing.
Do you understand what I'm talking about when I'm referrencing "stand-alone". Stand-alones don't get run into the ECU.
You forgot to mention how when tuning (w/ some aftermarket computers), you can choose whether or not you want the CL fuel corrections to be applied to OL or not....
I think you think you're trying to teach me something but honestly, if you're trying to teach me something, you are sorely wasting your time
I can see why people jumped on you. Your posts are somewhat confusing.
I believe most people in this thread was referring to the 'bouncing' of the NB and the WB with a stock ecu... I believe a stock ECU will bounce regardless if its a WB or a NB because the ECU is using that voltage to get to achieve optimal fuel economy. 02#154 pretty much is bang on in his posts
I believe your statement about a "well tuned car" WB should not bounce is partially correct for Standalones.
Most standalones don't even care about the WB or NB voltages. A standalone can run without even having the o2 sensors plugged into the unit. All the standalones do is read engine RPM, coolant temp, load. Looks at the fuel map and dumps x amount of fuel into the engine that the tuner set that square at. So in theory this should give you a non 'bouncing' AFR gauge regardless if its a good tune or a bad tune.
Those WB are there for you and the tuner to plot the desired AFR at any given point.
To the OP.
I got the dual channel AEM UEGO controller with 2 WB o2 sensors. The reason why I went with it is because I am running an AEM standalone so I wanted to keep all my equipment the same. I can't comment on how well it works because I have not picked up an AEM serial gauge yet. Will do it sometime this month I think...
Warren1205, maybe your PLX doesn't bounce around because it has some type of dampening element to it. Be it electronic or what have you. It might even be adjustable to the sensitivity that you or your tuner wants. I know, I would like to adjust my gauge to less sensitive when I am not tuning or monitoring it. Many devices have this kind of adjustment, so maybe yours or others do.
Just thinking out loud.
Trev
Just thinking out loud.
Trev
Jeff, here is a video for you so you can see what you can expect from the gauge if you go with the Aem UEGO Wideband O2 Unit.
I have the 91 nsx with the whipple ctsc with low boost set up using the stock nsx computer, a high volume walbro, stock injectors, RRFPR.
Don't worry if I'm a little lean anyone, cause I have a very small pulley on tonite and the fuel pressure cranked up and 60 points of extra octane boost in the tank, just for fun.....lol. Just trying 9 psi of boost to see how it is before i get down to changing out the injectors.
This one is in first after sitting at idle and starting off with a blimp of the throttle. I will upload another one in second gear to get more of a feel of it for you.
Enjoy
Trev
p.s. I will buy you the serial gauge this week - Mr Ncc
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-LQXhlQBmEU"> </param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-LQXhlQBmEU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> </embed> </object>
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nHo8T3b2tFA"> </param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nHo8T3b2tFA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> </embed> </object>
I have the 91 nsx with the whipple ctsc with low boost set up using the stock nsx computer, a high volume walbro, stock injectors, RRFPR.
Don't worry if I'm a little lean anyone, cause I have a very small pulley on tonite and the fuel pressure cranked up and 60 points of extra octane boost in the tank, just for fun.....lol. Just trying 9 psi of boost to see how it is before i get down to changing out the injectors.
This one is in first after sitting at idle and starting off with a blimp of the throttle. I will upload another one in second gear to get more of a feel of it for you.
Enjoy
Trev
p.s. I will buy you the serial gauge this week - Mr Ncc
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-LQXhlQBmEU"> </param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-LQXhlQBmEU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> </embed> </object>
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nHo8T3b2tFA"> </param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nHo8T3b2tFA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> </embed> </object>
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Trev , what we really want to see is your "home video"!!!!!!!!!
I am a believer in the aem uego since I have sold them to so many people , then I decided to try the innovate in my nsx due to so many good internet reviews , well It died. whats worse the A/f started changing slowly and I wondered what was up so I tried it against my motec that I use at the shop and it was off, so I re-calibrated it , it went off again , changed the sensor - do differece , then I called innovate - the tech told me basically nothing .
I switched it for an aem , zero problems , I've used aem uego since they were introduced(first version) the only thing I have ever seen is a dead densor(this can happen)
I will never buy another brand of wideband again.
I am a believer in the aem uego since I have sold them to so many people , then I decided to try the innovate in my nsx due to so many good internet reviews , well It died. whats worse the A/f started changing slowly and I wondered what was up so I tried it against my motec that I use at the shop and it was off, so I re-calibrated it , it went off again , changed the sensor - do differece , then I called innovate - the tech told me basically nothing .
I switched it for an aem , zero problems , I've used aem uego since they were introduced(first version) the only thing I have ever seen is a dead densor(this can happen)
I will never buy another brand of wideband again.
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