Which car would you take?

[TURBO2GO]

The only thing he saw was this.



He is completely delusional. His comments come from nowhere and lead to nowhere...and are usually about him.

Not to mention he doesn't know anything about me and is making a lot of assumptions.

I am at the track as much as possible. The Rossion has a built-in cage. I have seen its safety structure. It is probably even safer than the R8 in a high speed crash. The safety system is a race system, not a street system. It doesn't matter that an R8 has more airbags, race cars have none. I wouldn't say they are less safe.

The Rossion is a more difficult but more rewarding car to drive at a racetrack. I like that. When I drove a GTR, it was way too automated for me. Fast but boring. Not enough involvement from the driver. I know of 2 instructors for schools that own Nobles and it is an incredibly fast car on the track, the Rossion is just a better version of the M400 with many upgrades. This is an outstanding car, I don't care if it is made by a small company. So what? camry's are made by an even bigger company. Doesn't make it a better car.

Ashman I have driven an R8, I haven't driven a Rossion. The car isn't for everybody, but that is the kind of car I like. Yes, the R8 is the new NSX. Comfy, spectacular interior, I loved it. LOVED IT. But I don't find its looks all that exciting. It is a car you can drive everyday comfortably. Not the least bit harsh and a lot more refined than the GTR. But my NSX was too tame for me stock, and I had to make it more hardcore.

Both cars are similarly priced when optioned properly. There is no savings with the Rossion.

I am just in the preliminary stages anyway. I am prefectly happy with my NSX right now. I am going to try and drive the Rossion and see if it is as exciting as they seem on the track. The rossion is not the best daily driver. The R8 can easily be. I've seen bad drivers drive the R8 around Monticello fast. The car does it all. Just floor the pedal, steer, let it do its thing. Like the GTR. Driver involvement is dissapearing due to technology. An Audi has to appeal to a broad group of people. Rossion is not concerned with a guy's wife driving the car to the grocery store. Audi wants those clients. I like cars that let me do more and do less themselves. That is why I am seriously considering the Rossion. I guess I need to drive one. I won't do anything for at least a year anyway.

Thanks for the feedback guys.

 

[ashman]

Sounds like you want a track car that you can drive on the street. I know it doesn't compare to your 2 choices in looks but a 997 GT3RS might fit the bill and would be a great value in another year.

 

[Osiris_x11]

do it, right. . .

Audi R8 V10. Period/full-stop.

(... though, I dunno how much they go for after being equipped/packaged, but also negotiated/discounted)

 

[FXMDBilly]

FWIW:

Early Nobles didn't have blow-off valves and used long silicone lines with hose clamps. This poor design resulted in the lines occasionally popping off. BOV can be easily installed and I believe were added to later model cars, but i'm not sure.

The Noble/Rossion has an integrated rollcage in it's tubular spaceframe chassis. Because of this it probably has better rollover protection than both the NSX, GTO, or most unibody cars out there. Just because a manufacturer dosn't want to jump through hoops and spend hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars and wreck a lot of cars dosn't necessarily mean it's unsafe.


$0.02 -Billy




Tiff Needell is my hero (even though he dosn't like our beloved NSX).

Check out his review on the Noble M12:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8l68c_top-gear-noble-m12-gto_auto

On the M12 GTO 3R:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziWXw630e10

And Tiff's R8 review:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a8KXNRm_q4

R8 vs. 911 4S:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJW3mbROXJQ



More Tiff Videos:

NSX vs. R33 GTR vs. 996 vs. C5 Vette:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSroPmWogPY

NSX vs. EVO 1 vs. Impreza

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoLFXMT_hD8

Farewell to the NSX (NSX history, Vicki driving, Tiff debating):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW_Quo3HiHs

OLD video from the early 90's of the NA-1. He was much more prim and proper and not quite the outspoken drift-happy ex-racing driver/journalist that he has become.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ3vTFHDa_4



Enjoy!

 

[Vega$ NSX]

Farewell to the NSX (NSX history, Vicki driving, Tiff debating):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW_Quo3HiHs

"Take the windscreen out."

That comment still makes me laugh hysterically.

 

[VegasSpeed]

GTO? Seriously?

I can't believe someone would buy a new GTO. The new GTO is just a knock-off Holden Monaro from down under. I wouldn't drive a new generation GTO if you paid me every time I was in it. Those cars are hideous. I bet you think a Mustang GT is a great handling car too since we are making rash generalizations. You can put all the hp you want into a muscle car but it still handles like Sh*t. Not sure why that got brought up anyway. I would take the Q1 or old Noble. I loved the Noble.

 

[passline]

Sooo.... ??? Which one would you take given both scenarios? Inquiring minds want to know!! :biggrin:

All things equal? ............. the wild one, of course! :biggrin:

 

[BATMANs]

Re: GTO? Seriously?

I can't believe someone would buy a new GTO. The new GTO is just a knock-off Holden Monaro from down under. I wouldn't drive a new generation GTO if you paid me every time I was in it. Those cars are hideous. I bet you think a Mustang GT is a great handling car too since we are making rash generalizations. You can put all the hp you want into a muscle car but it still handles like Sh*t. Not sure why that got brought up anyway. I would take the Q1 or old Noble. I loved the Noble.

Have you driven one or even sat in one?

I wanted a sleeper car with ALOT of flat HP and TQ. The car needed to have independent rear suspension and ALOT of aftermarket support. it needs to be a 4 seater (with alot of leg and head room for all 4 passengers with 2 doors and while cruising or for commute it's good on gas.

I couldn't find something in just about any budget that does all of that.

How is it a knock-off Holden Monaro when it is a Holden Monaro?

The front Pontiac bumper needs improvement, but the rest of it is not bad.

The interior smells better than a NSX. it's that sweet leather smell that you get with a German car.

The Mustang is heavier and has solid axle. It's not a good handling car.

The GTO/Monaro handling bad?

Just look at the cars these 2 pass on this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt991EpMqpQ

Short list of the cars that were passed as if the 2 of them were street racing on the freeway:

ferrari
Mosler
BMW
STi
Porsche

As a matter of fact, the first car that both of them overtook looks like this:

The Monaro went on to win the 2002 and 2003 Bathurst 24 hour against many world class race cars including Porsche GT3's, the British Mosler MT900R, the Ferarri GT Modena and the Lamborghini GT Racecar. I've even heard unconfirmed reports that the Monaro beat the 911 AWD in the wet.

 

[BATMANs]

Sounds like the turbo install and tuning, nothing inherently wrong with the car nor the engine. If you don't properly tune or install a hose clamp, then any car can be considered un-reliable.

Been trying to tell people that about the FD, it's all in the tune....

What's with these broad sweeping generalizations? You are saying because ONE NSX owner crashed his supercharged NSX, that most or all NSX owners can't handle the power. And since you have a 514 whp GTO, does that mean you can handle the power and/or makes you an authority on who can and cannot handle those power and weight levels? So what about the fact that I drive a 589 whp/521 ft-lbs NSX that weights in a touch over 3,000 lbs? I'm an NSX owner that can handle the power/weight level beyond your GTO, the R8, and the Noble/Rossion. Shouldn't that negate or balance the fact that someone wrecked a CTSC NSX? And based on your rationale, since I beat your power to weight ratio, shouldn't that make me more of an authority on who can and who can't handle what levels of power and weight?

Are you saying that I am claiming to be the authority on power?Considering that the GTO is taller and heavier than the NSX, yes it does require a set of skills to handle the weight and center of gravity issues. Your rationale is suffice as to the authority on power.

More sweeping generalizations. I own an NSX. I don't have kids. People don't buy cars expecting to crash. If they did, then they shouldn't buy either car. In fact, based on your rationale, no NSX owner should even own or drive a motorcycle. People understand that sometimes other factors (such as performance) trump things like safety. Otherwise, why even drive a GTO or NSX then? Buy a much safer Honda Minivan instead.

I don't recall saying that people procure cars or any motorized vehicles expecting to crash.

The fact is, neither car has been crash tested, so you can't make any claims that one car is safer than the other. There haven't been enough produced of either car, nor actual crash data or fatality information to make any substaniated claims. Your statements on the safety of the two cars compared to each other are merely complely subjective and opinion.

Perhaps the newer versions of the M12 is safer, but from what I have seen on one of the first ones that came hear, I would rather stick with the R8, NSX and GTO...

 

[steveny]

Re: GTO? Seriously?

I can't believe someone would buy a new GTO. The new GTO is just a knock-off Holden Monaro from down under. I wouldn't drive a new generation GTO if you paid me every time I was in it. Those cars are hideous. I bet you think a Mustang GT is a great handling car too since we are making rash generalizations. You can put all the hp you want into a muscle car but it still handles like Sh*t. Not sure why that got brought up anyway. I would take the Q1 or old Noble. I loved the Noble.

My father in law has a new GTO and it is fast as hell but handles like a pick-up truck. I almost crashed it the first time I pounded on it.

 

[BATMANs]

Re: GTO? Seriously?

My father in law has a new GTO and it is fast as hell but handles like a pick-up truck. I almost crashed it the first time I pounded on it.

yes, outta the box the handling is like a land yacht thanks to the liquid filled bushings and soft progressive springs.

When I first picked it up with the 514RWHP and stock suspension and tires I felt very uneasy.

After upgrading the suspension with Koni's, King Springs, sway bars and poly bushings, the car handling feels like driving another car.

In the aforementioned post with the video of the Monaro (aka GTO) beating the German imports and even a Mosler, the GTOs were equipped with this wonderful shock that I wish were available for the NSX:

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/shocks/shocks_main.shtml

I used it in the truck and was floored by how it automatically stiffened up in smooth roads and softened up in choppy conditions.

 

[BATMANs]

.....The Noble/Rossion has an integrated rollcage in it's tubular spaceframe chassis. Because of this it probably has better rollover protection than both the NSX, GTO, or most unibody cars out there. Just because a manufacturer dosn't want to jump through hoops and spend hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars and wreck a lot of cars dosn't necessarily mean it's unsafe......

I was under the impression that a properly fabricated "unibody chassis" was designed to help dissipate crash energy around the occupants with crush zones, etc. like the Honda/Acura ACE system.

One of the toughest challenges is balancing the crush required to absorb impact energy with the structural strength necessary to keep the passenger compartment intact. I suspect that the philosophy on crashworthiness is threefold. One is maintaining occupant compartment integrity, so the compartment itself needs significant strength. The second is absorbing crash energy, so things like the front and rear rail systems must be engineered to crush and absorb energy to minimize deceleration levels to the occupants. The third is restraining the occupants so they will not experience significant loading during the crash.

Advantages and disadvantages compared to unibody:

Advantages

• Easier to design, build and modify (less of an issue now that Computer-Assisted Design (CAD) is commonplace, but still an advantage for coach-built vehicles).
• More suited for heavy duty usage such as towing and off-roading; can be more durable.
• Easier to repair after accidents.
• In an environment where roads are salted, it will not rust through as quickly.
• Could allow a manufacturer to easily sub-contract portions of work

Disadvantages

• Heavier than unibody - lower performance and/or higher fuel consumption.
• Less resistant to torsional flexing (flexing of the whole car in corners) - compromising handling and road grip.
• No crumple zone - higher rate of death and serious injury.
• Higher production costs (cannot share platforms with cars)
• Inferior packaging - comparatively smaller interior for total size

 

[Vega$ NSX]

Been trying to tell people that about the FD, it's all in the tune....

Finally, a statement even I can agree with! :biggrin:

Are you saying that I am claiming to be the authority on power?Considering that the GTO is taller and heavier than the NSX, yes it does require a set of skills to handle the weight and center of gravity issues. Your rationale is suffice as to the authority on power.

I'm not, but you are. Your posts always seem to break down to how much power you have and why it puts you in the position to make judgments on what power people can and cannot handle. I think you give too much credibility to a single number like HP and what means in what people want, what they can handle, or how good their driving skills are. Hence, the only reason I brought up my HP numbers so I could lord it over you, like some kind of ranking, as you seem to do to others. In reality, I couldn't care less, which is why I don't even bother to put my HP numbers in my own signature.

I don't recall saying that people procure cars or any motorized vehicles expecting to crash.

I didn't say you did, but you were to first one to bring up crash test ratings in which you automatically assumed that it is of primary importance in selecting a car. It may be for some, but you can't immediately assume that is the case for everyone. Again, which is why some people choose to drive motorcycles.

Perhaps the newer versions of the M12 is safer, but from what I have seen on one of the first ones that came hear, I would rather stick with the R8, NSX and GTO...

That's fine. I'm just here to point out that your statements are completely subjective based on nothing more of your opinions. Neither car has been crash tested and there is no crash data on either car. You can post all the pictures you want of wrecked cars, but without knowing the circumstances behind the actual crash, they are basically pointless. My only intent was to point out that you:

1) Make sweeping assumptions and statements on people and use your HP numbers as your basis of credibility
2) Make statements that you come close to pass off as fact, but are only grounded on opinion and are unsubstantiated by any actual data.

 

[TURBO2GO]

May I just say that Billy was talking about the Noble M12 GTO and not a Pontiac? I don't know how that came into this conversation.

 

[FXMDBilly]

That's fine. I'm just here to point out that your statements are completely subjective based on nothing more of your opinions. Neither car has been crash tested and there is no crash data on either car. You can post all the pictures you want of wrecked cars, but without knowing the circumstances behind the actual crash, they are basically pointless. My only intent was to point out that you:

1) Make sweeping assumptions and statements on people and use your HP numbers as your basis of credibility
2) Make statements that you come close to pass off as fact, but are only grounded on opinion and are unsubstantiated by any actual data.

+1

Hey now, don't hate on Mustangs. With suspension and bushings (or one that has been upgraded from the factory like the Roush Racing 427R) Mustangs can be made to handle quite well. Heck, they won the Koni Challenge Championship last year over BMW and Porsche:

Now I do admit that the Holden Manaro/GTO was one of my favorite recent cars in terms of performance per dollar. The balance was awesome and it was fun to drive. For me i'd rather have it over an EVO or STI. Sure it was softly sprung and slightly 'floaty' - but the same arguments can be made for the Mustang, and even our beloved NSX in stock form.

Now it's one thing to be proud of your car and try to convince others (and possibly your own insecurities) that you made the right decision and they should agree with you, and it's quite another story to do it in every post. We get you like the GTO. I like the GTO too, but it gets a bit old reading the same thing over and over in every thread.

Billy

 

[BATMANs]

May I just say that Billy was talking about the Noble M12 GTO and not a Pontiac? I don't know how that came into this conversation.

Oh....... if so, my bad.... :biggrin:

 

[BATMANs]

Finally, a statement even I can agree with! :biggrin:



I'm not, but you are. Your posts always seem to break down to how much power you have and why it puts you in the position to make judgments on what power people can and cannot handle. I think you give too much credibility to a single number like HP and what means in what people want, what they can handle, or how good their driving skills are. Hence, the only reason I brought up my HP numbers so I could lord it over you, like some kind of ranking, as you seem to do to others. In reality, I couldn't care less, which is why I don't even bother to put my HP numbers in my own signature.



I didn't say you did, but you were to first one to bring up crash test ratings in which you automatically assumed that it is of primary importance in selecting a car. It may be for some, but you can't immediately assume that is the case for everyone. Again, which is why some people choose to drive motorcycles.



That's fine. I'm just here to point out that your statements are completely subjective based on nothing more of your opinions. Neither car has been crash tested and there is no crash data on either car. You can post all the pictures you want of wrecked cars, but without knowing the circumstances behind the actual crash, they are basically pointless. My only intent was to point out that you:

1) Make sweeping assumptions and statements on people and use your HP numbers as your basis of credibility
2) Make statements that you come close to pass off as fact, but are only grounded on opinion and are unsubstantiated by any actual data.

How do you know that I'm not doing some of these "sweeping" for fun and my personal entertainment. Where were the likes of you when I first joined and the "pee & poop" gang-bang haters on the RX7 commenced with their "festivities?"

I figured, if that's the case on sweeping assumptions, then it's open season, so that people may learn what it feels like.

There are those that get my hidden messages (and agree with me), of course they may be older and wiser.


-Yoda

 

[BATMANs]

+1.......Now I do admit that the Holden Manaro/GTO was one of my favorite recent cars in terms of performance per dollar. The balance was awesome and it was fun to drive. For me i'd rather have it over an EVO or STI. Sure it was softly sprung and slightly 'floaty' - but the same arguments can be made for the Mustang, and even our beloved NSX in stock form.

Now it's one thing to be proud of your car and try to convince others (and possibly your own insecurities) that you made the right decision and they should agree with you, and it's quite another story to do it in every post. We get you like the GTO. I like the GTO too, but it gets a bit old reading the same thing over and over in every thread.

Billy

It's Monaro.

Insecurities? Naw. More like Bat-Grade fun and games on the wonderful internet. I understand your point, but exaggerating to the level of stating that I "do it in every" post may not be warranted.....

 

[Vega$ NSX]

How do you know that I'm not doing some of these "sweeping" for fun and my personal entertainment. Where were the likes of you when I first joined and the "pee & poop" gang-bang haters on the RX7 commenced with their "festivities?"

I figured, if that's the case on sweeping assumptions, then it's open season, so that people may learn what it feels like.

There are those that get my hidden messages (and agree with me), of course they may be older and wiser.


-Yoda

Well, very true and I figured as much. I'm quite the button pusher too and in fact my rants and replies are actually a bit of tongue in cheek rabble rousing myself. :tongue: You aren't the only one with an inside joke and the hunter may actually be the hunted. :biggrin::wink:

 

[BATMANs]

Well, very true and I figured as much. I'm quite the button pusher too and in fact my rants and replies are actually a bit of tongue in cheek rabble rousing myself. :tongue: You aren't the only one with an inside joke and the hunter may actually be the hunted. :biggrin::wink: