Which came first the Ferrari 408 or the NSX ?

[lightguy]

Just recently discovered and found pics of the Ferrari 408.
This cars shape is nearly identical to the NSX.
It debuted in 1988 as a prototype whereas the NSX came out in 90 as a full production car.
Given the time it takes to develop a production car vs a prototype is it possible that Ferrari actually copied the NSX protos or did Honda indeed copy the 408 ?

I would find it hard to believe that both found the same shape at the same time.

http://www.streetfire.net/video/ferrari-408-the-first-awd-ferrari_85426.htm

 

[Yawwn]

A search reveals a thread I created almost 9 years ago regarding this topic.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2605

 

[bboxer]

Truth be told, Ferrari in the 80's were pretty much behind in all aspects of engineering. I was taking delivery of a car at the factory in 1985 and was told point blank that their next project was a 4 wheel drive mid ship V8 with an aluminum monocoque similar to Nissan's 1984-85 Mid-4 that was shown at the Frankfurt show. I guess the 408 was deemed too expensive to make a couple of years later and the 348 "dog" was developped instead. Europeans, just like a whole bunch of us here refused to concede that japanese companies had a lot of (performance) engineering knowhow to offer, especially in the 80's and 90's. Here is a link to the Mid-4.
http://zhome.com/History/MID-4.htm

 

[oscar_driver]

We can proudly say that perhaps the NSX was the only REAL potential project from that era, who ever thought that the NSX could change the exotic/supercar spectrum forever?

NSX pinifarina:

Official NSX "concept" (pretty much production ready):

408 (looks like a fiero with a backyard body kit):

Nissan:

I can't believe our NSX is from that era, and with minor mods still looks fresh, those others, if they came to production, I don't see them looking fresh, even with mods .. amazing

 

[EuroBoutique]

Cool thread, I learned something new today

 

[BD]

I remember an old road and track article about the 408. FWD prototype.

it was in 1987 I think.

This car reminded me of that Subaru made to compete with 80's Honda Prelude. Do you guys know what I'm talking about?

 

[shawn110975]

Nice I learned alot to. my future wife says I obssesed with the NSX and walked away. yikes Im in trouble. but wow its funny they finally use the Concepts I would buy any concept as they never produce them. even though they are the coolest cars out there. can we buy those concepts from the factory.

Hey dont trash it.. I'll buy that.

 

[bboxer]

Ferrari is the smartest with prototypes and preproduction cars; they used to sometimes find buyers and make a lot of money that way. Lambo on the other hand was known to just junk their prototypes and preproduction cars right behind the main plant. I saw the pile once in 1986 when Chrysler/Iacocca were trying to buy Lambo and insisted on including the "junk in the deal.Japanese are the best, they keep their odd cars for their museums, just like Porsche does.

 

[ANYTIME]

Just recently discovered and found pics of the Ferrari 408.
This cars shape is nearly identical to the NSX.
It debuted in 1988 as a prototype whereas the NSX came out in 90 as a full production car.
Given the time it takes to develop a production car vs a prototype is it possible that Ferrari actually copied the NSX protos or did Honda indeed copy the 408 ?

I would find it hard to believe that both found the same shape at the same time.

http://www.streetfire.net/video/ferrari-408-the-first-awd-ferrari_85426.htm

After seeing the pics, they are identical........... NOT :biggrin:

 

[armyLT]

I remember an old road and track article about the 408. FWD prototype.

it was in 1987 I think.

This car reminded me of that Subaru made to compete with 80's Honda Prelude. Do you guys know what I'm talking about?

Subaru XT6...the precursor to the Subaru SVX. Both fun cars though the SVX would be much better w/a 6 speed and went on a weight loss program. Still a fun daily driver though.

 

[tbromley]

Subaru XT6...the precursor to the Subaru SVX. Both fun cars though the SVX would be much better w/a 6 speed and went on a weight loss program. Still a fun daily driver though.

Subaru's answer to the Fiat X-16 - another turkey car I wouldn't want.

 

[SaleenS7Rs]

I never saw this Nissan before. It looks pretty close to the NSX but I wonder if can perform like one. The Ferrari does look like somebody put on a goofy bodykit on another car.

 

[tbromley]

I never saw this Nissan before. It looks pretty close to the NSX but I wonder if can perform like one. The Ferrari does look like somebody put on a goofy bodykit on another car.

That's a Nissan? I've never seen that either - when was this taken?

 

[bboxer]

Just read my post (nr.3) above with the link to a detailed history.

 

[SFNSXguy]

Great thread... In case you all haven't figured it out, many stylists think alike -- maybe because so many went to Art Center College of Design in L.A.

 

[shawn110975]

Tim I doubt it performs like an NSX, look at the back tires they are the same as the front. but it so close its funny, the turn signals are deep in the bumper, and the curves where the air intake is. is real close.

I wouldnt want a Nissan anyway even if it looked like that.

 

[lightguy]

Truth be told, Ferrari in the 80's were pretty much behind in all aspects of engineering. I was taking delivery of a car at the factory in 1985 and was told point blank that their next project was a 4 wheel drive mid ship V8 with an aluminum monocoque similar to Nissan's 1984-85 Mid-4 that was shown at the Frankfurt show. I guess the 408 was deemed too expensive to make a couple of years later and the 348 "dog" was developped instead. Europeans, just like a whole bunch of us here refused to concede that japanese companies had a lot of (performance) engineering knowhow to offer, especially in the 80's and 90's. Here is a link to the Mid-4.
http://zhome.com/History/MID-4.htm

Nice "inside" perspective.
So even in 85 the pot was cooking for the 408 to the point of letting customers know their direction.
I guess this means the 408 really did preclude the NSX.
I had always thought Ferrari "copied" the NSX in their 360.

 

[lightguy]

A search reveals a thread I created almost 9 years ago regarding this topic.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2605

From that thread.
A great read BTW;

Spinner
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 884 Re: NSX style originally from Ferrari??

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Just to clarify...YES, THE NSX WAS LOOSELY BASED OFF THE FERRARI 408. My instructor (one of the chief designers for Honda N. America) confirmed this. They used it as a inspirational starting point. Sure it looks ugly as hell, but remember, that car (408) was designed in 1980-1981.

 

[M Baker]

i had always thought ferrari "copied" the nsx in their 360.

NSX

Ferrari 360

Other than aluminum for the chassis, body shell, and suspension wishbones I don't see any similarity in engineering or design. The 360 is of a different supercar era of higher performance. The 360 has a large and deep front trunk, longitudinal V8 engine beautifully displayed, flat underbody with functional rear diffuser, lots of HP and big brakes. And finally for a big guy, it is the first mid-engine 2-seat Ferrari with plenty of head room and tons of foot room. The 430 went further to clean up a lot of the issues of the "kit car" aspects of the 360 and brought the line to new levels of reliability. It's one reason you can get a good 360 for around $80k but a 430 is still well over $100k

 

[bboxer]

Lightguy,
Ferrari engineers have a hard time keeping their mouth shut in my experience. Evrytime I have been to Maranello, I have asked pointed questions and just listened as they spilled the beans (or the pasta). I think the 408 ideas were a little beyond F's production capabilities at the time. The 348 was much simpler and cheaper to manufacture. AFA the 360 is concerned, F had become very cocky in the late 90's and although their whole F1 engine program was being run by a Japanese engineer, they only looked at Japanese production quality and still could not match it without compromising their profit margins.(unlike Honda, they needed to make money with their biggest seller). All you have to do is put the 360 on a lift next to an NSX and you can clearly see the superiority of the NSX's materials, forgings, hardware and assembly.

Shawn,
I would not be so sure the NSX would outperform the Mid4-2. That car had a twin turbo six with 330 hp and way more TQ. It also had Hicas and a viscous 4 wheel drive system they later used on the JDM Skylines while still weighing
under 3k lbs. There is no reason underestimating Nissan's engineering capabilities; they have always been at the forefront of technical innovations. As to "I would not buy a Nissan anyway", with all due respect, that belongs to the other forums, like the one with cigar-smoking people with Gucci loafers.

 

[oscar_driver]

Other than aluminum for the chassis, body shell, and suspension wishbones I don't see any similarity in engineering or design. The 360 is of a different supercar era of higher performance. The 360 has a large and deep front trunk, longitudinal V8 engine beautifully displayed, flat underbody with functional rear diffuser, lots of HP and big brakes. And finally for a big guy, it is the first mid-engine 2-seat Ferrari with plenty of head room and tons of foot room.

All that sounds amazing, but still the base 360 is like 0.3 faster than a Na2 NSX ... on top of that I had deep conversations with 2 ex nsx/360 owners and they all agree that -although a bit faster- there's not much difference as far as car dynamics between an NSX vs 360, UNLESS you get a 360 CS ... that came from 2 very nice local ex nsx and 360 owners that currently own 430's

Of course the 360 overall is better than our NSX's that I Agree.

 

[lightguy]

Other than aluminum for the chassis, body shell, and suspension wishbones I don't see any similarity in engineering or design. The 360 is of a different supercar era of higher performance.

Of course not stylistically or drive train layout but rather in engineering and philosophy.
The then current production car in the 348 and even the 355 (which was obviously a step up in performance with almost 400hp) were steel cars.
Not until the 360 did Ferrari grasp full Aluminum structure. And as pointed out here, in many ways the NSX was still engineered better than it.
I am not a Ferrari basher by any means and currently have one.
However I do appreciate the effort that Honda put into our little toy.

 

[bboxer]

It was ALCOA in the mid 90's who did all of the unibody research for Ferrari. F never had the experience or any capabilities in AL stampings and extrusions. All they knew up to then was how to bash aluminum panels for their lighweight cars.There are one or two NSX skeletons hidden somewhere in Alcoa's closet. And still, IMO the NSX structure and skin are superior to the 360.

True story: Back in May 2005, I traded my 360 to a dealer in Dallas. I was taking off my BBS/Challenge wheels to replace them with the the stock wheels the night before the pick up. One of the stock wheels gently rolled by accident and came to a stop against the passenger door. Wouldn't you know it, the door was dented. Now that would not happen to the NSX would it ?

 

[ediddynsx]

Maybe the Ferrari door was made of super duper lightweight aluminum thus it dents easily....:biggrin:

Tino I think you would have enjoyed the stradale way more than the regular 360.

I am still a big fan of the CS and all Ferrari's sounds awesome!

Can't beat the sounds of a V8 with a capristo or tubi.



oops

 

[bboxer]

Eddy,
Since this is an NSX sub forum I will not use the space to give you my take on the CS with which I am somewhat familiar. I will gladly share my opinions with you when we next meet.

Maybe the Ferrari door was made of super duper lightweight aluminum thus it dents easily....:biggrin:

Tino I think you would have enjoyed the stradale way more than the regular 360.

I am still a big fan of the CS and all Ferrari's sounds awesome!

Can't beat the sounds of a V8 with a capristo or tubi.



oops