what oil to use for track driving?

[nsxhk]

0w20? 10w30? 10w40? 15w50? 20w50?

According to www.dalmotorsprots.com, he recommends 20w50 for track/racing. Wouldn't that be a bit too thick?

Henry.

 

[scorp965]

Are you burning oil at the track?

 

[docjohn]

I tried 20/50 for a season,but sadly in the NE the morning temps can be in the 50's and with the heavier oil the car needed many cranks to catch:frown: I have spent many miles on the track with mobil 1 in 10/30 and for the occasional DE you should have no worries.don't get too hung op on the subtle benefits of varied oil wghts,just go with 10/30.Now if you have a track with long radius fast bends with sustained g loading and you are on R compounds or slicks I would look into the baffled oil pan and accusump.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

Are you burning oil at the track?

mine was, with Baffle pan and Mobil 1 10/30. But then I know my vtec seal is leaking...

 

[NSXAMG996TT]

Motul with baffled oil pan & 3qt Accusump

 

[CL65 Captain]

I have been running Mobil 1 10w30, baffled pan and 3qt Accusump.

I have read extensively about oils and tracking, including Amsoil, Royal Purple, etc. The info from the Pros is not to run thicker oil than spec as it may not get thin enough, even under high heat/stress, to get into all the spaces it should and increase wear could be a possibility. Without having the expertise to tear down the engine and examine it after races, you are better off running a good quality Synthetic at the recommended weight and changing it often.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

According to www.dalmotorsprots.com, he recommends 20w50 for track/racing. Wouldn't that be a bit too thick?

Henry.

For Rob, no. For me, no. For you, maybe? It's really hard to give advice without having context on car, driver, usage. This is another instance where it isn't a matter of there being a best. Is your car stock? Do you have an accumulator and/or oil cooler? Define track usage. Are you running autox, 20 minute DE sessions, 30 minute sprints, enduros, what and where? What are your oil temps looking like? Would you define your engine usage as severe?

I have been running Mobil 1 10w30, baffled pan and 3qt Accusump.

Motul with baffled oil pan & 3qt Accusump

Do either of you have an oil temp gauge in your car yet?

For the NSX typically I'll run 15W50 Extended Protection; and I have recorded a consistent 15C drop at the pan with it over the factory weight when pushing the temps to the very upper limits. Still, what I grab off the shelf for any vehicle very much depends on the setup, conditions, and what I am doing at a particular event.

I've been using the Eneos 0W50 during the start and tail ends of the season particularly when cold start-up is more of a concern.

Gobbles of track miles over the last 8 years, no lubrication failures, and clean bill of health from my tech. Hoping for another good season ahead.

Hope that helps.

 

[mystican]

Mobil one 15w-50...for track driving NSX...I run an accusump and baffled oil pan. No problems...knock on wood...

 

[Ponyboy]

I've been using the Eneos 0W50 during the start and tail ends of the season particularly when cold start-up is more of a concern.

I was just going to bring that brand and weight up as it would seem to cover both bases.

John, any difference in temps w/ the Eneos 0W50?

 

[NSXAMG996TT]

John - Yes, I run both an oil and water temp gauge (Autometer) since the stock ones are crap. So far so good. Wished there was a temp gauge for my brake pads, rotors, and tires.

 

[CL65 Captain]

Some reading....

http://www.supramania.com/aehaas/index-2.html

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

I was just going to bring that brand and weight up as it would seem to cover both bases.

John, any difference in temps w/ the Eneos 0W50?

As I mentioned, I'll only concern myself with the winter rating in say March or November when it is probably 37 degrees out here, sleeting, and the car tends to sit for long periods of time between run groups; I'll spare the engine in the paddock.

In retrospect, the Eneos gets our nod up this way. However, at $15 a quart multiplied by 9 quarts multiplied by a couples of events per month it certainly isn't cheap.

John - Yes, I run both an oil and water temp gauge (Autometer) since the stock ones are crap. So far so good.

What oil/water temps are you customarily observing? I found myself at mid summer with temp issues in 30 minute sprints; but eventually I learned a few tricks from the pros and we got it all sorted.

Wished there was a temp gauge for my brake pads, rotors, and tires.

You already have two of them. One on each butt cheek. :smile:

 

[nsxotic911]

This question has a very simple answer, oil analysis.
Do a track session and send your oil to Blackstone, or even better, Dyson Analysis.

Given the mileage, usage, cars etc.. they will tell you exaclty what is going on with your oil, whethre it's breaking down too fast, went too many miles, too few etc..

They'll give you suggestions on which oil (especially Terry @ Dyson) that is invaluable. For $20 - $100, it's a no brainer.

A teardown is nice, but you can't do it after every track event, but an oil sample will get pretty darn close.

Get an oil sample, experiment, you'll find the perfect match, especially if you go with Terry @ Dyson. He's more expensive than Blackstone, but his analysis is brilliant. He, as well as Blackstone, have done mine and other NSX engines so they are familiar with them.

BTW: The reason Dali recommends 20W-50 and the reason that Honda recommends 10W-30 is because on the track, the OIL can shear expnentially faster and if you start at 10W-30, you don't have a far way to go. If you start at 20W-50, you have a bigger buffer. Terry can help you pick out the oil for your environment (may be M1, maybe RP, maybe Amsoil, maybe Motul, may be RLI) but one that does not shear and teh best weight.

BTW2: For a rough idea how fast oil and car components can break down under serious amounts of stress, consider that Canton's Oil Filter says it can run 10-15K miles on street/normal applications. On track, it can only run 750 miles. Now 750 track miles is a lot of miles, but that's a factor of 20x+ and that should say something.
Although I initially recommended against it, changing oils before and after a track event, even in the middle of the day, is not a bad idea.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

Paul, how much oil do I need to take in for them to do the experiment?

normally when I change oil, it will get dumped into the oil pan, which it had contain all kind of contaminants from all the different cars i had changed oil with it.

Just want to see if it's worth the trouble to do that. (My car is not functioning now, but maybe a good time to get this done.)

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Although I initially recommended against it, changing oils before and after a track event, even in the middle of the day, is not a bad idea.

I need clarification on this one point.

So, what you are telling us is that Paul recommends changing your engine oil, at the track, ideally even in the middle of the day. So, is this between practice and qualifying or do you reccomend that I wait until lunch to change my oil again, or is that too long in your opinion?

I'm curious here.... How is it for someone that has run 1 track event in his entire life.... get an opportunity to post recommendations?

Just curious if it might be that all the teams at the 24 hours of Le Mans don't drive their car as hard as you did that one day? Or you know... I think I know what is going on.... you do realize that for analysis you are supposed to put the oil in the plastic bag and mail it- not drink it, right?

:tongue:

 

[CL65 Captain]

Although I initially recommended against it, changing oils before and after a track event, even in the middle of the day, is not a bad idea.

That's just NUTS!

Let's see, I run Fri for the Instructor Open Lapping day, Sat and Sun. So.... that's (2x3) x 7 qts x $10 = $420 for oil for the weekend. Paul do you recommend two oil filters a day too?

Oh and I do 2-3 weekends a month.

Changing oil at the track... that's funny!

 

[nsxotic911]

That's just NUTS!

Let's see, I run Fri for the Instructor Open Lapping day, Sat and Sun. So.... that's (2x3) x 7 qts x $10 = $420 for oil for the weekend. Paul do you recommend two oil filters a day too?

Oh and I do 2-3 weekends a month.

Changing oil at the track... that's funny!

It's up to you. I'd suggest you do an oil analysis and then you can determine what the correct interval is.

 

[nsxotic911]

I need clarification on this one point.

...
:tongue:

I'm curious how someone that provided the same advice some time back now derides that same piece of advice.

My only point in this thread, which is far above what everyone has been saying is that to determine the correct interval and proper oil, scientific analysis.

The fact that it's so cheap and sounds so simple seems to steer people away from doing it.

A combination of butt-dyno, 'visual inspection,' "hasn't blown up yet," "my buddy says that.." are the way 99% of people here judge oil here instead of using a very easy and objective way.

 

[Hrant]

Let's get to some factual information and report on actual data such as the SUS Viscosity @210, CST viscosity@100C and flashpoints so we can compare notes.

I have used both 10W/30 (for many years Mobil1, and before that Castrol GTX) and 5W/40 Motul since the CTSC (and with oil cooler and 3 qts Accusump when the CTSC was installed). Oil change intervals are about 3K. I have been doing oil analysis with Blackstone for many years.

If I read the reports correctly, by oil industry manufacturing specs, the SUS Viscosity@210 of the 5W/40 is higher than the 10W/30. According to Blackstone, the former has a range of 65-76 and the latter has a range of 59-68. Mine have come just a hair below the range at 58.6, and for the 10W/40 and right at 65.6 for the Motul 5W/40. cST Viscosity@100C for the Motul was 11.8 and the range is 11.6-14.8. The same readings for Mobil 1 with 10W/30 had been 9.4-9.8 consistently. My next analysis of the Motul oil should come any day now. My flash point has been consistently over the minimum of 360F/390F at 415F.

Blackstone's comment on the Motul 5W/40 oil which was used in the summer months up to December here in NorCal: "The viscosity of the oil read normally so maybe this oil does take the heat and stress that you put on it a little better."

I have 55K miles on my 98-T and it dynoed at 362 rwhp and 254 lbft in 4th gear at Shad's Dynapak - fully loaded with no weight reduction. The car runs strong with no motor/oil issues that I know of. YMMV.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Get your lab work done

Isn't that what the doctor always requires?

I'll second Hrant's analysis practices. It's what I always did running a skydiving airplane. Just take the sample from the middle of the drain stream.

 

[Ponyboy]

As I mentioned, I'll only concern myself with the winter rating in say March or November when it is probably 37 degrees out here, sleeting, and the car tends to sit for long periods of time between run groups; I'll spare the engine in the paddock.

In retrospect, the Eneos gets our nod up this way. However, at $15 a quart multiplied by 9 quarts multiplied by a couples of events per month it certainly isn't cheap.

Sooo....have you noticed any difference in oil temps when using Eneos?

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

I'm curious how someone that provided the same advice some time back now derides that same piece of advice.

Not so, I am being consistent. I have always encouraged you to do all the oil analysis you feel is necessary. Also, in the event you do decide to bring your NSX out to the track this year; if you feel the need to change your engine oil twice a day... once again I think Paul should do what Paul thinks is best for Paul's car.

My only point in this thread, which is far above what everyone has been saying is that to determine the correct interval and proper oil, scientific analysis is required which far exceeds NSXPRIME speculation, including the al mighty John.

I underlined your point. Here is mine.

This is the track forum. The OP asked for a input on what weight oil to use for the track. You responded.

Seeing as how we have established that you do not put your vehicle on a racing surface, nor participate in motor-sports in anyway; I suppose I was simply confused as to how your mechanical experience on this particular matter came to bare.

I haven't yet gotten that answer.

A combination of butt-dyno, 'visual inspection,' "hasn't blown up yet," "my buddy says that.." are the way 99% of people here judge oil here instead of using a very easy and objective way.

So what you are telling us is that when someone like a Rob or a Eddie or a Greg or a Shad (some of whom I might add has been building/racing/winning longer than you have been alive) .... their specific advice isn't nearly as correct/relevant as your own in this instance. Ok.

Well, IMHO the easy and objective way is to realize that being smart is all about knowing what you don't know. Ask someone that has some clue as to what they are talking about in some credible way, then actually take the extra step to listen to what they have to say and run with it.

That said, I am going to have to go ahead and disagree with your advice. While a great diagnostic tool in specific circumstances- I personally feel member input / real world track experience contributed by fellow local racers is far and above more relevant to answering the OP's question.

Suffice to say, when a customer asks a vendor, fellow racer, or engine builder what oil to use... I know of none that instead sent them out the door with a mail-in kit.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Sooo....have you noticed any difference in oil temps when using Eneos?

No. Due to environmental and other factors I don't feel I have any direct comparable data. If you are concerned about operating temps, their were some tweaks I have found that made a definite difference for me.

 

[Ponyboy]

No. Due to environmental and other factors I don't feel I have any direct comparable data. If you are concerned about operating temps, their were some tweaks I have found that made a definite difference for me.

Gotcha. Not necessarily "concerned" but wanted to see if there was any thing more substantive than anecdotal reports. Been interested in Eneos b/c of the extreme weight (0W50) variances.

I run 11qts of oil in my car. Changing the oil before, during, or after a track event is going to be one expensive proposition. If that's the prudent thing to do, I may just skip track days altogether.

 

[CL65 Captain]

One of my friends is running Red Line Oil in his track car. They told him at Red Line to run it the entire season and then change it. One weekend a month, April-Nov.

I'm not going to comment on that, but that's what advice they told him.