Do you guys favor a particular brand of gas, or is one better then the other? iv always heard some gas stations have more watered down gas than others..
what gas to use?
- Thread starter dlynes
- Start date
Use any major brand of premium unleaded fuel and you'll be fine.
Anyone tried the new "Shell"? Its supposed to be new and improve 
Re: Re: what gas to use?
Not really "watered" down, but just using that expression. There are some cheaper gas stations (I've seen Arco as one) that uses more additives that burns off the gas faster so you don't get as much milage out of one tank. Do I have proof on this? No, but I've tested it on my car(s) with long trips and lots of driving that I had to do over a 6-month time period (commutting 120 miles each way) and I found the "cheaper" gas stations or 'mom & pop' stations, you don't drive as far on one tank of gas. Of course I could be just talking about of my ass and it may be all psychological, but that's what I noticed. 76, Cheveron, and Shell seemed to yield the best results, with Arco and some other "Cheaper" gas stations yielding the worse results.
hlweyl said:
xsn said:
Not really "watered" down, but just using that expression. There are some cheaper gas stations (I've seen Arco as one) that uses more additives that burns off the gas faster so you don't get as much milage out of one tank. Do I have proof on this? No, but I've tested it on my car(s) with long trips and lots of driving that I had to do over a 6-month time period (commutting 120 miles each way) and I found the "cheaper" gas stations or 'mom & pop' stations, you don't drive as far on one tank of gas. Of course I could be just talking about of my ass and it may be all psychological, but that's what I noticed. 76, Cheveron, and Shell seemed to yield the best results, with Arco and some other "Cheaper" gas stations yielding the worse results.
Yellow Rose
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I've always heard some gas stations have more watered down gas than others..
Absolute BS......per EPA and DOT laws, no gas station is allowed to "water down" gasoline.
Absolute BS......per EPA and DOT laws, no gas station is allowed to "water down" gasoline.
AndyVecsey said:
I think they are alowed varying degrees of ethanol and other cleaners/additives. I am not disagreeing with your above statement, but I think the point of the original post was that all gases are not formulated exactly the same.
Yellow Rose
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Actually, all base gasolines are identical......it is the additives that are the different. I will look around on my f-drive here at work and if I find it, I will post a document I wrote about gasoline. I used to work for Shell.
I get alot more mileage on my cars using SHELL than EXXON
Chevron or Shell for me.
I used to use Exxon, but most of the Exxon stations around here are owned my one family, and they got busted a few years back for putting 87 octane in their 89 octane tanks, and putting 89 octane in their 93 octane tanks. So rather than try to figure out what Exxon station is owned by who, I just avoid them.
According to the newspaper article that reported this story, this type of octane swap rip-off happens a lot. If your car has an octane or knock sensor, and you get a lower octane tank of gas, the octane or knock sensor will back off on the ignition timing to protect the engine, but in doing so you will see poor performance and gas milage. So I would bet that is what you are seeing, as opposed to phantom additives/fillers being put in your fuel.
So if you suspect that a station is doing this, you can report them to your state's inspection agency (most states it falls under the department of agriculture). Here in Florida the inspection stickers are on every pump with a phone number to call to report problems. Just make sure its the gas that has a problem, and not your vehicle, before you start reporting every gas station in town.
I used to use Exxon, but most of the Exxon stations around here are owned my one family, and they got busted a few years back for putting 87 octane in their 89 octane tanks, and putting 89 octane in their 93 octane tanks. So rather than try to figure out what Exxon station is owned by who, I just avoid them.
According to the newspaper article that reported this story, this type of octane swap rip-off happens a lot. If your car has an octane or knock sensor, and you get a lower octane tank of gas, the octane or knock sensor will back off on the ignition timing to protect the engine, but in doing so you will see poor performance and gas milage. So I would bet that is what you are seeing, as opposed to phantom additives/fillers being put in your fuel.
So if you suspect that a station is doing this, you can report them to your state's inspection agency (most states it falls under the department of agriculture). Here in Florida the inspection stickers are on every pump with a phone number to call to report problems. Just make sure its the gas that has a problem, and not your vehicle, before you start reporting every gas station in town.
AndyVecsey said:
I don't mean to hijack this thread but I think many people on this forum would be interested in hearing the differences in the gasoline additives you speak of. From your work experience is any one brand "better" than another? Inquiring minds want to know. If you don't want to further this thread hijacking please feel free to pm me.
Thanks
Here's an article from yesterday's New York Times. You'll note that it provides many opinions which conflict with each other.
With So Many Gasoline Choices, What's a Driver to Do?
By MATT RICHTEL
Published: July 11, 2004
LEADED or unleaded? It is a question that belongs to simpler times, when a consumer could pull up to the gas station, momentarily forget life's complexities and know the right answer.
Buying gas these days, though, has become a complex and emotionally draining experience. The questions swirl: How much octane do I need? Will my car fall apart without gas that includes additives and detergents? What is a higher priority, my child's college education, or a full tank of premium fuel for my sport utility vehicle?
Hysteria, of course, will get you nowhere and may cause you to swerve while operating heavy machinery. It turns out that by following basic rules, you can become an informed gas consumer - an important role in a time when fuel seems so expensive that you could burn a dollar's worth just turning around your car at the self-service island to have the correct side of the vehicle face the pump.
The first thing to understand is that gasoline, like most everything else, has been subjected to the wizardry of marketing experts. They have introduced so many grades, products, brand names and fancy words - like "Techron" and "V-Power" - that the Shell Answer Man himself may become disoriented.
So how much fancy gasoline do you need? And will it really matter if you use the cheapest gas you can find? There are competing schools of thought. One side is anchored by people who believe that brand names matter, and the other by strict constructionists, who argue that gas is gas is gas.
"A lot of consumers buy more expensive fuel on the mistaken belief it will enhance performance," said Sean Comey, a spokesman for AAA of Northern California. "They might as well throw the money out the window and burn it."
But there are also those who say gasoline quality and brand name do affect mileage, car longevity and driving performance. Some of these people, to be sure, come from the gasoline industry, and they can be very forceful about their opinions, especially with their next of kin.
"I tell my kids: never buy gas at an independent station; if you do, get the highest octane," said a manager at a repair shop at a San Francisco Chevron who refused to give his full name.
Of the choices facing consumers, the two most basic are about the level of octane to put into the car, and whether to buy gasoline with an "additive," which is essentially a detergent that is marketed as a way to keep your engine clean and head off mechanical problems.
The big franchises, like Shell, 76, Mobil and Chevron, profess to have special additive formulas (like Chevron's Techron) that keep the engine cleaner. But it is worth noting that while independent stations may not include additives that are as powerful in their gasoline, the Environmental Protection Agency does require all fuel sold to include some detergent, said Jim Williams, a senior manager at the American Petroleum Institute, an industry trade group.
Is the amount of additive required by the E.P.A. enough to keep cars clean?
"It's a minimum quality standard," Mr. Williams said, adding that some companies have decided to go further than the minimum, in part because it gives them a marketing leg up. "It's a decision they make on their marketing strategies, based on what their consumers want."
People who work on cars for a living differ on whether special additives help. Dennis DeCota, executive director of the California Service Station and Automotive Repair Association, and a longtime owner of a 76 station, said it helped to put some detergent in the car. But he said that it did not matter where it came from - whether from a brand-name station or from an auto-parts store where you can dump a bit into the tank every three or four fill-ups.
"I'm a 76 dealer, and I can't remember the name of our additive - Prosomething," he said. "It's absolutely not worth the difference in price between branded and unbranded detergents - it's marketing."
Go to an auto-parts store "and buy octane boosters or detergent and add them to your own gas tank," he said. "It's cheaper."
As for the octane issue, well, it makes the detergent debate look clean. The higher the octane level, the more efficiently the fuel burns. Most gas stations have three grades of octane - 87, 89 and 91, for example.
On the most basic level, the octane level dictates whether your engine makes knocking noises, which can happen if fuel burns inefficiently or continues to burn after the engine is turned off.
Again, though, there is a perhaps little-known factor that mitigates engine knock. Mr. Williams, from the petroleum association, says that most cars today have automatic knock sensors that can determine whether fuel is burning inefficiently and can change how it is combusted, thus eliminating knock. Further, he argued that a little knock never hurt anyone, unless it lasted a long time.
Mr. Williams and several other people in the industry agree that the octane decision may come down to what is required by the automaker. Near the fuel cap of Mr. Williams's Lexus, he said, is a note that reads, "premium fuel only," and he complies. But he would not necessarily recommend the high-end fuel for drivers of cars whose makers do not require it.
Mr. Comey, from AAA, said that when a car maker "recommends" premium fuel it is not the same as requiring it.
"If you shoot truth serum into the veins of car engineers," he said, "they'll admit that 'recommended' means you don't really need it."
Car makers and dealerships say higher-octane fuel can improve performance and minimize the risk of engine knock. Tiffany Cook, a spokeswoman for Saab Cars USA, said the company's engineers "have seen slight performance improvements when cars use higher octane fuels," but they think it is much more important to get regular maintenance and oil changes for the car than to worry about octane.
"It becomes an issue of personal preference," she added. "We have some owners say they won't use anything less than premium. They get accustomed to how the car sounds. But it's certainly not anything where it's going to be damaging to the car if you're using lesser octane fuel."
Generally, the least expensive gasoline available is the best choice, unless your car manufacturer states otherwise. But there is a caveat: Do not drive around for miles to find the least expensive station. A moral victory of 3 cents a gallon may cost $1.50 in gas.
There is no concrete data on whether a particular brand of gas can increase performance. But there are anecdotes. In the Sunset district of San Francisco, there are two gas stations a block apart - an Olympia station and a Shell. George Williams, 46, filled his Honda at the Olympia the other day and said, "I avoid putting Shell in my car" because it never runs as well.
Moments later, at the Shell, Hank Chan, 57, a cab driver, said he buys only Shell, which gives his car more power. In other words, some people swear that a certain brand makes their cars run better. They may be right.
But some other people may just be deeply loyal by nature, or happen to have the credit card of a particular oil company.
WERE the Beatles trying to tell us that Paul was dead? Some gasoline shoppers labor under certain old wives' tales: independent stations sell gas that is watered down, or comes from the bottom of an oil tanker and is somehow dirtier than brand-name gas. In no particularly order, the answers are: not true, not true and the Beatles were a great band but were not trying to personally send you any subliminal messages, except, perhaps, to ditch that gas-guzzling S.U.V. for something smaller: a yellow submarine.
With So Many Gasoline Choices, What's a Driver to Do?
By MATT RICHTEL
Published: July 11, 2004
LEADED or unleaded? It is a question that belongs to simpler times, when a consumer could pull up to the gas station, momentarily forget life's complexities and know the right answer.
Buying gas these days, though, has become a complex and emotionally draining experience. The questions swirl: How much octane do I need? Will my car fall apart without gas that includes additives and detergents? What is a higher priority, my child's college education, or a full tank of premium fuel for my sport utility vehicle?
Hysteria, of course, will get you nowhere and may cause you to swerve while operating heavy machinery. It turns out that by following basic rules, you can become an informed gas consumer - an important role in a time when fuel seems so expensive that you could burn a dollar's worth just turning around your car at the self-service island to have the correct side of the vehicle face the pump.
The first thing to understand is that gasoline, like most everything else, has been subjected to the wizardry of marketing experts. They have introduced so many grades, products, brand names and fancy words - like "Techron" and "V-Power" - that the Shell Answer Man himself may become disoriented.
So how much fancy gasoline do you need? And will it really matter if you use the cheapest gas you can find? There are competing schools of thought. One side is anchored by people who believe that brand names matter, and the other by strict constructionists, who argue that gas is gas is gas.
"A lot of consumers buy more expensive fuel on the mistaken belief it will enhance performance," said Sean Comey, a spokesman for AAA of Northern California. "They might as well throw the money out the window and burn it."
But there are also those who say gasoline quality and brand name do affect mileage, car longevity and driving performance. Some of these people, to be sure, come from the gasoline industry, and they can be very forceful about their opinions, especially with their next of kin.
"I tell my kids: never buy gas at an independent station; if you do, get the highest octane," said a manager at a repair shop at a San Francisco Chevron who refused to give his full name.
Of the choices facing consumers, the two most basic are about the level of octane to put into the car, and whether to buy gasoline with an "additive," which is essentially a detergent that is marketed as a way to keep your engine clean and head off mechanical problems.
The big franchises, like Shell, 76, Mobil and Chevron, profess to have special additive formulas (like Chevron's Techron) that keep the engine cleaner. But it is worth noting that while independent stations may not include additives that are as powerful in their gasoline, the Environmental Protection Agency does require all fuel sold to include some detergent, said Jim Williams, a senior manager at the American Petroleum Institute, an industry trade group.
Is the amount of additive required by the E.P.A. enough to keep cars clean?
"It's a minimum quality standard," Mr. Williams said, adding that some companies have decided to go further than the minimum, in part because it gives them a marketing leg up. "It's a decision they make on their marketing strategies, based on what their consumers want."
People who work on cars for a living differ on whether special additives help. Dennis DeCota, executive director of the California Service Station and Automotive Repair Association, and a longtime owner of a 76 station, said it helped to put some detergent in the car. But he said that it did not matter where it came from - whether from a brand-name station or from an auto-parts store where you can dump a bit into the tank every three or four fill-ups.
"I'm a 76 dealer, and I can't remember the name of our additive - Prosomething," he said. "It's absolutely not worth the difference in price between branded and unbranded detergents - it's marketing."
Go to an auto-parts store "and buy octane boosters or detergent and add them to your own gas tank," he said. "It's cheaper."
As for the octane issue, well, it makes the detergent debate look clean. The higher the octane level, the more efficiently the fuel burns. Most gas stations have three grades of octane - 87, 89 and 91, for example.
On the most basic level, the octane level dictates whether your engine makes knocking noises, which can happen if fuel burns inefficiently or continues to burn after the engine is turned off.
Again, though, there is a perhaps little-known factor that mitigates engine knock. Mr. Williams, from the petroleum association, says that most cars today have automatic knock sensors that can determine whether fuel is burning inefficiently and can change how it is combusted, thus eliminating knock. Further, he argued that a little knock never hurt anyone, unless it lasted a long time.
Mr. Williams and several other people in the industry agree that the octane decision may come down to what is required by the automaker. Near the fuel cap of Mr. Williams's Lexus, he said, is a note that reads, "premium fuel only," and he complies. But he would not necessarily recommend the high-end fuel for drivers of cars whose makers do not require it.
Mr. Comey, from AAA, said that when a car maker "recommends" premium fuel it is not the same as requiring it.
"If you shoot truth serum into the veins of car engineers," he said, "they'll admit that 'recommended' means you don't really need it."
Car makers and dealerships say higher-octane fuel can improve performance and minimize the risk of engine knock. Tiffany Cook, a spokeswoman for Saab Cars USA, said the company's engineers "have seen slight performance improvements when cars use higher octane fuels," but they think it is much more important to get regular maintenance and oil changes for the car than to worry about octane.
"It becomes an issue of personal preference," she added. "We have some owners say they won't use anything less than premium. They get accustomed to how the car sounds. But it's certainly not anything where it's going to be damaging to the car if you're using lesser octane fuel."
Generally, the least expensive gasoline available is the best choice, unless your car manufacturer states otherwise. But there is a caveat: Do not drive around for miles to find the least expensive station. A moral victory of 3 cents a gallon may cost $1.50 in gas.
There is no concrete data on whether a particular brand of gas can increase performance. But there are anecdotes. In the Sunset district of San Francisco, there are two gas stations a block apart - an Olympia station and a Shell. George Williams, 46, filled his Honda at the Olympia the other day and said, "I avoid putting Shell in my car" because it never runs as well.
Moments later, at the Shell, Hank Chan, 57, a cab driver, said he buys only Shell, which gives his car more power. In other words, some people swear that a certain brand makes their cars run better. They may be right.
But some other people may just be deeply loyal by nature, or happen to have the credit card of a particular oil company.
WERE the Beatles trying to tell us that Paul was dead? Some gasoline shoppers labor under certain old wives' tales: independent stations sell gas that is watered down, or comes from the bottom of an oil tanker and is somehow dirtier than brand-name gas. In no particularly order, the answers are: not true, not true and the Beatles were a great band but were not trying to personally send you any subliminal messages, except, perhaps, to ditch that gas-guzzling S.U.V. for something smaller: a yellow submarine.
Re: Re: Re: what gas to use?
I also noticed something like that. I only use chevron.
And I think it's a minor detail but important nonetheless. Chevron has individual hoses for each octane grade instead of one hose for all 3 87-89-91. That way if the person before you used 87 it doesn't get mixed because a little bit of the gas is still left in the hose. Like I said minor but I wouldn't risk it.
Ofcourse this was more important to ME when I had my prelude but I thought I would just throw it out there for you guys.
Newman said:
I also noticed something like that. I only use chevron.
And I think it's a minor detail but important nonetheless. Chevron has individual hoses for each octane grade instead of one hose for all 3 87-89-91. That way if the person before you used 87 it doesn't get mixed because a little bit of the gas is still left in the hose. Like I said minor but I wouldn't risk it.
Ofcourse this was more important to ME when I had my prelude but I thought I would just throw it out there for you guys.
don't buy higher than 91 unless you have raised your compression ratio, otherwise you are wasting money and likely hurting performance.
hlweyl said:
are you complaining?
No.jlindy said:
No.jlindy said:
Satan's statement, that using premium fuel from the pump is a waste of money and harms performance, is just plain false.
Buy premium fuel for the NSX unless you want your performance degraded. Premium fuel means 92 to 94 pump octane in most of the United States, and 91 octane in the West. Mid-grade fuel is 89 octane, which is less than the minimum (91) recommended by Honda for the NSX.
As long as you use premium unleaded fuel in the NSX, you'll be fine.
See, the thing with the new Shell V-Power gas is that it's not actually 93 octane. I've heard from a friend of mine who owns a Shell station that it's 94 octane.
They're not required to say that it's 94, but it is supposed to be.
I have no idea how true this is, but I've known this guy for years and I trust him when he says it.
They're not required to say that it's 94, but it is supposed to be.
I have no idea how true this is, but I've known this guy for years and I trust him when he says it.
Yellow Rose
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I received the words in bold via a PM that originated from within this thread. Without divulging that person’s identity, I feel that his questions are useful enough to be shared, because in different wording I see the same being asked by others.
Do you happen to have any knowledge of any one gasoline being better than the others due to the specific brand's additives? Or it that one should simply buy the cheapest brand name premium because there really is no significant difference?
In medicine we have what is called a "clinical difference" meaning that a patient will heal better, live longer etc and there is an "experimental or scientific difference" where it appears to be better in the lab but in the real world it doesn't affect healing, lifespan etc. to any apparent degree. Is the difference in the brands of gasoline more scientific or is it more clinical?
To use your profession's terminology, raw gasoline that leaves the refinery - makes no difference if it is Shell, Exxon, Chevron, etc. - is a "clinical difference". Meaning that one can quantitatively measure the difference of 91 octane vs 93 octane. Additionally, the 93 octane from Shell can be compared to the 93 octane from Exxon, and compared to EPA standards to verify conformance. These are measurable and guaranteed differences, just like patient A living longer than patient B.
Blended gasoline which have the additives are what differentiate Chevron from Shell from Exxon, etc. Each refinery has patents on their particular additive, weather it prevents (reduces, actually) carbon build-up, anti-ice (for the northern climates), vapor pressure stabilization, anti-knock, etc. The gasoline that the consumer buys at the pump is "experimental or scientific difference" and here is why.
Let’s say that we both buy new identical cars and live in the same city. You religiously fill with Chevron and I with Shell. We drive cars in the same manner. At 50k miles we teardown the engines for inspection. Quantitatively one engine may (or may not) have more carbon build-up but it still runs strong, able to duplicate the other engine's performance. In this sense, qualitatively the carbon build-up is the same. So we put the engines back into the cars and run for another 50k. Upon the second inspection, carbon build-up is now more visible in one engine over the other. But what if the average driver sells their cars at about the 75k mark? Then it is all a moot point. Therefore, what can be proven in a laboratory fixed environment may not necessarily be duplicated in the real world.......at least to the point that it makes an earth-shattering difference. I buy gas at Shell, Exxon, Chevron, Mobil, etc. One could argue that I get the best of all worlds, with respect to additives. What Mobil doesn't have, Exxon does. What Chevron has, Shell doesn't. Are additives incompatible with each other? I don't think this will ever be concluded. If they are not compatible, I’d be willing to bet that the detrimental effect will not be realized within the timeframe of the engine’s useful life.
Do you happen to have any knowledge of any one gasoline being better than the others due to the specific brand's additives? Or it that one should simply buy the cheapest brand name premium because there really is no significant difference?
In medicine we have what is called a "clinical difference" meaning that a patient will heal better, live longer etc and there is an "experimental or scientific difference" where it appears to be better in the lab but in the real world it doesn't affect healing, lifespan etc. to any apparent degree. Is the difference in the brands of gasoline more scientific or is it more clinical?
To use your profession's terminology, raw gasoline that leaves the refinery - makes no difference if it is Shell, Exxon, Chevron, etc. - is a "clinical difference". Meaning that one can quantitatively measure the difference of 91 octane vs 93 octane. Additionally, the 93 octane from Shell can be compared to the 93 octane from Exxon, and compared to EPA standards to verify conformance. These are measurable and guaranteed differences, just like patient A living longer than patient B.
Blended gasoline which have the additives are what differentiate Chevron from Shell from Exxon, etc. Each refinery has patents on their particular additive, weather it prevents (reduces, actually) carbon build-up, anti-ice (for the northern climates), vapor pressure stabilization, anti-knock, etc. The gasoline that the consumer buys at the pump is "experimental or scientific difference" and here is why.
Let’s say that we both buy new identical cars and live in the same city. You religiously fill with Chevron and I with Shell. We drive cars in the same manner. At 50k miles we teardown the engines for inspection. Quantitatively one engine may (or may not) have more carbon build-up but it still runs strong, able to duplicate the other engine's performance. In this sense, qualitatively the carbon build-up is the same. So we put the engines back into the cars and run for another 50k. Upon the second inspection, carbon build-up is now more visible in one engine over the other. But what if the average driver sells their cars at about the 75k mark? Then it is all a moot point. Therefore, what can be proven in a laboratory fixed environment may not necessarily be duplicated in the real world.......at least to the point that it makes an earth-shattering difference. I buy gas at Shell, Exxon, Chevron, Mobil, etc. One could argue that I get the best of all worlds, with respect to additives. What Mobil doesn't have, Exxon does. What Chevron has, Shell doesn't. Are additives incompatible with each other? I don't think this will ever be concluded. If they are not compatible, I’d be willing to bet that the detrimental effect will not be realized within the timeframe of the engine’s useful life.
If they are all the same, why then is Amoco/BP Premium crystal clear in color like water, and others are not?
I am a racer, therefore I support those who support us
Sunoco, BP, Mobil
I am a racer, therefore I support those who support us
Sunoco, BP, Mobil
nsxtasy said:
Maybe you should re-read my post pay attention next time, don't put words into my mouth. 91 is a premium fuel, and I said using over 91 on stock nsx compression is a waste, and may cause power loss. Of course less than 91 will hurt performance, no one is disputing that.
My statement is absolutely true in 99% of driving situations.
