waste of resources... 8 organ transplant

peiserg

peiserg

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i'm sure a few have heard how yet again our generous country has taken someone from across the globe, and given away multiple organs in a likely "freebie" heroic operation...8 organs transplanted into a 1 year old in florida last week in one operation. i guess heart lungs kidney liver intestines etc...

Not that the kid is at fault, and who can blame the mom for wanting to save her kid, but give me a break.. why the hell are we paying our taxes? :rolleyes: like that cute girl last year from south america or wherever who got TWO sets of heart/lung after it was discovered that her first freebie (well, not free i guess, i pay taxes) was the wrong blood type leading to early rejection.. now of course the family is suing.. how laughable..
 
I agree with you 100%. Why are our tax dollars going towards the costs for medical services for people who aren't tax payers in our own country. I am also a proponent for charitable treatment, and I myself do provide dental services for "free" to individuals that truly need it in my private practice.

Now, as for the lawsuit pertaining to that incident that you mention. Unfortunately, even though it was a charity case and even though the parents probably signed an informed consent, there are always lawyers out there waiting for a malpractice case like this. Ultimately it is the doctors responsibility to make sure that the blood type is correct and that all pre-operative diagnostics have been done correctly and then confirmed. It is because of lawsuits like this that cause the medical community to have to increase their fees to cover their malpracrtice premiums. I have never been sued for malpractice, yet my malpractice rates increase 15-20% every year and I can't complain to anyone because falls on deaf ears. However, when I have to increase my fees to cover the costs of operating my office, my patients complain like there's no tomorrow.
 
We all (taxpayers and users of professional services) pay for the litigiousness of our society. I don't mean to say that suits are all frivolous; however, they ought to be limited to cases where blatant malpractice is present. When a foreigner can sue for malpractice when the service was free to them in the first place, we have truly hit the slippery slope.
 
its hard to say that the money for the transplant came from our tax dollars. private research dollars might have help paid for it. also, teaching hospitals esp. will engage novel medicine to put their name, school, dr, hospital out there.

what gets me going are the people here in the u.s. who abuse the system such as medicaid. i went through 2 graduate schools and had a part time job but i had no health benefits so i paid for everything out of pocket while some people go to the ER whenever they dont feel well just because they don't need to pay for it. :mad:
 
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No comment on the suit since I am not familiar with the case.

But - on the topic of US tax dollars going to health care for others I do have something to add. I work with a medical unit of the US Army. Often they send a team of doctors to places with no health care at all. They talked about children dying from ear infections (all my kids have had many) because they have 0 medical treatment. They would go for 30 days and literally work from 5am till they drop. People with their whole families will wait for the entire 30 days - in line - to get the only medical attention they are likely to receive in their entire life.

I was completely moved by their stories and how guilty they felt for falling asleep (sometimes standing up), and leaving (with the looks on people's faces who have waited in line for 30 days and know their loved ones will surely die now.

I did ask them how we justify the expenses because in the political world we live in - regardless of how much of the world's resources we use up in the USA and how high our standards of living - people will always ask why our tax dollars go to things like this.

They had an answer. They really go to study things they would only see in a developing country. In other words - they learn a lot about advanced and complicated infections that would NEVER happen in the western world and how to treat them. This helps them / the CDC learn about things that might happen in a pandemic type situation. They also get experience working in a "forward deployed" triage situation and develop better processes.

Of course - as human beings - they volunteer and do it as charity. They will tell you how we are so lucky to live in the richest, most privileged, and greatest country in the history of mankind and we have an obligation to spread the concepts of hope, freedom, and charity.

Sometimes I wonder why we send man and machines to outer space when the same resources could be used to alieviate pain, suffering, and hunger in our country and around the world but rarely feel bad when tax money goes to helping others in need.

Not meant to flame / you points are still valid. This is just my perspective and opinion.
 
i didn't take your reply as a flame. And i agree that valuable things can be learned abroad. But, Flordida is not abroad, and Italy (girl's country) is not the 3rd world, she could have received treatment there. Not a successful multi organ transplant i'm sure, but at least i'm not paying for it, and there aren't 7 kids from the states that are going without those 7 organs because of her.

Regarding the lawsuit. Yes, the doctor is liable, it was a stupid, stupid, stupid mistake. But puhllleeeeeeeze! The USA either privately or publicly funded her medical care to the tune of well over $250,000 uninsured dollars. shit. just put that money into vaccines or school books or something domestic...This sort of crap is irritating. A surgeon i know was willing to work at the Shriner's for FREE, as long as he didn't need malpractice insurance. The courts ruled that even tho he was doing 100% (not 99.99%) free work, he was still liable. So he didn't do it.
 
I work in the field of Nuclear Medicine and have worked at several major hospital centers. A large percentage of health care dollars are spent on folks that are so far gone that they practically live in critical care units. Many of their families don't have the heart to put a "DNR"(do not resuscitate) order on them, and who can blame them, noone wants to lose a loved one. There are so many problems in the health care industry, the list is too long.

And there is no easy solution as it becomes more and more political. Being around physicians and experts in the field over the years this is my take on it: one of the major hurdles to solving the health care problem is the patients themselves, in other words us. I'll try to explain this phenomenon by reconstructing a similiar conversation I had with a patient...

Me: Why are you having your stress test today sir?
Patient: I had this terrible burning in my chest a couple months ago, it gets worse the more coffee I drink. I usually drink about 5-6 cups per day.
Me: Are you still getting this discomfort?
Patient: No, it went away after I started taking prevacid.
Me: Did you try cutting back on the coffee?
Patient: No, you see I do just fine on the prevacid.

So the insurance company has to pay over $100 per month for prevacid because the patient chooses to drink too much coffee. I know this is oversimplifying the problem but I think it all comes down to how we take care of ourselves, eating right and exercising can do wonders for your health, everyone doesn't need to be on high blood pressure and cholesterol meds. If insurance didn't cover his stomach medicine, i'm sure he would try to cut back on the coffee to help his discomfort.

Originally, insurance companies only covered major health traumas. Health care savings accounts could be a big help, if everyone put away 10% of their income since they started working and used that for their own health care (with supplemental coverage for major health care issues) that would be a good start. They could also use this account for retirement and invest the money as they wish.

This probably will never happen because the changes necessary would have to start at the government level. So as a politician trying to get elected, they will not be very popular telling the masses that there will no longer be insurance coverage to pay for there prevacid, claritin, etc.

That is only one of the many problems in health care today. There are definitely greedy Doctors and greedy insurance companies also. Funny thing is, even with all the problems and bureaucracy, I wouldn't want to be sick in any other country. God bless America!
 
I agree with this subject.
Here locally(Jax, FL) we brought a young girl from around the world that had never walked in her life. Due to misformed legs. She had crawled her whole life and had adapted well to it.
Anyway, she came her and ALL her surgeries, therapy, medicine and the like was FREE !!!
But we can't seem to take care of our own. War vets, homeless, jobless, etc. Makes me crazy:mad:
 
Solution to social security, Medicaid, Medicare, and budget shortfalls for funding. Make everyone pay the full amount ~5.6% social security tax on ALL income. NO cut off at ~87k. This way the business owners and CEO's that are making their fortunes off the sweat of the working class will also have to support the working class that is making them rich. I think it is very unfair that Dennis K. makes 600 Million a year and only has to pay into social security on the first ~87k while the people who helped him make that 600 million (right down to the janitor) are most likely paying 5.6% on their entire income. Much larger burden for the working poor to bear.

However this will not stop the abuse of these programs which is a HUGE problem.
 
Does anyone know for sure that our tax dollars paid for any part of the surgery?

Does anyone know for sure that the organs that were donated came from the U.S.?

My guess is that the hospital and doctors donated their time for the surgery. They probably picked up most of the other travel expenses and such as this is GREAT advertising.

I also wouldn't be suprised to find out that the organs also can from Italy, they probably have less need for some of them as if that type of transplant isn't performed there.


SteveNY,
I pay more in various taxes than 99.99% of the individuals out there. To say that I should also pay 5.6% of my entire income on Social Security is ridiculous. We already have a sliding scale on taxes and the percentage of my income is higher than any other group. I own my own company so I already match the social security of all of my employees, including myself.

If I see someone making a lot of money, most of the time they are providing jobs for many (all of which are also paying taxes). Also most of the people making the big dollars are the ones taking the biggest risks.

Don't get me wrong, I am happy to live in America and I want to pay my fair share of taxes. I just sometimes get a little upset when peoples first response is tax the rich more they can afford it. Most of those rich people employ a lot of others. If the tax rate goes too much higher I will probably just retire.
 
Heres my beef about taxes: It seems like I am being penalized for furthuring my education in getting advance degrees so I can get a larger gross income yet a ratio net income similiar to those who make less gross and have not gone to graduate school.
I know it sometimes depend on the state you live and work in but here in pa I get state, city, occupational tax which I don't get any refund for. So taxing the "rich" in this sense seems unfair too.

Gov't is like a big business and the reason why there is over a trillion dollar deficit is because of mismanagement.
:(
 
Carguy! said:
Does anyone know for sure that our tax dollars paid for any part of the surgery?

Does anyone know for sure that the organs that were donated came from the U.S.?

My guess is that the hospital and doctors donated their time for the surgery. They probably picked up most of the other travel expenses and such as this is GREAT advertising.

I also wouldn't be suprised to find out that the organs also can from Italy, they probably have less need for some of them as if that type of transplant isn't performed there.
Click to expand...

I can be 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999
sure that the organs originated in the states. They have a VERY finite life span once removed. That's why the #1 guy on the liver list who might live in NY loses the liver to the #2 guy who lives in L.A. if the donor dies in L.A. They won't even fly them across a state, much less across an ocean! Likely scenario is brain dead donor in same city.

So the doctors and hospitals donated the time. so what. Why not donate the literally hundreds of thousands it took to someone who's paid into the system for more than 2 months?

Oh yeah. Raise my taxes. and why not use an example of someone who makes more than anyone save probably 1-200 people in the country as an example of why :rolleyes: What does that have to do with the subject of wasting tax dollars on non citizens? Check Yahoo right now. some infant and her mother died in a medi-vac chopper crash. I'm sure the father will sue. Nevermind that the mother brought the kid over the border SPECIFICALLY to seek medical treatment...

oh, ps. on the guy who only pays 5.6% of 87k vs. a 600million salary... uh, i might have to consult a CPA, but i'd guess he pays more in taxes than the average city of 20-30000 people. so yeah, stick him for some more $$, why the hell not? at 35% tax brack he's already being hit for approx 210 million in taxes.. besides, the "countless thousands" who help him make his money, right down to the janitor, are likely not giving away their services for free. I'd imagine the trusty old janitor gets paid for what he does.. and the boss is ALREADY paying half of their SS taxes...
 
peiserg said:
I can be 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999
sure that the organs originated in the states. They have a VERY finite life span once removed. That's why the #1 guy on the liver list who might live in NY loses the liver to the #2 guy who lives in L.A. if the donor dies in L.A. They won't even fly them across a state, much less across an ocean! Likely scenario is brain dead donor in same city.

So the doctors and hospitals donated the time. so what. Why not donate the literally hundreds of thousands it took to someone who's paid into the system for more than 2 months?

Oh yeah. Raise my taxes. and why not use an example of someone who makes more than anyone save probably 1-200 people in the country as an example of why :rolleyes: What does that have to do with the subject of wasting tax dollars on non citizens? Check Yahoo right now. some infant and her mother died in a medi-vac chopper crash. I'm sure the father will sue. Nevermind that the mother brought the kid over the border SPECIFICALLY to seek medical treatment...

oh, ps. on the guy who only pays 5.6% of 87k vs. a 600million salary... uh, i might have to consult a CPA, but i'd guess he pays more in taxes than the average city of 20-30000 people. so yeah, stick him for some more $$, why the hell not? at 35% tax brack he's already being hit for approx 210 million in taxes.. besides, the "countless thousands" who help him make his money, right down to the janitor, are likely not giving away their services for free. I'd imagine the trusty old janitor gets paid for what he does.. and the boss is ALREADY paying half of their SS taxes...
Click to expand...

I just spent about 30 minutes reading, trying to find out where the organs originated from and all I came up with was it was a one year old baby that donated all of the organs. My guess is it probably was some type of closed head injury that resulted in being brain dead. Just so you know with this type of injury they can keep a baby alive and could be transported virtually anywhere in the world for surgery.

I have a friend that received a new Kidney and Pancreas from a donor in Alaska, he was shot in the head in a hunting accident and they had no problems flying him in for the transplants.

Why do you think you should decide who is worthy of the hospital and the doctors time? If they want to donate their their time to help this little girl, I say great! I understand that they probably had some other motives such as setting a new record for the most organs transplated at once. By the way the doctor beat his old record of seven that he did in 1997.

This is the type of case that makes the news and I am sure the hospital and the lead doctor will get a bunch more business from people that want more routine transplants.

As far as your other points it looks like we agree (Which scares me a little based on your original post.):)
 
i'm not saying I should decide where and when they donate the time and money.I'm saying they ought to use it for people that pay into the system that keeps them gainfully employed, not some lucky schmo that comes from whereever..I woulnd't have a problem if organs were plentiful, and other countries reciprocated.

I doubt, highly, that they would be able to chopper or jet in someone from italy, and keep them stable enough on the flight... to prevent viability of the organs from being lost. Just my humble opinion. Opinion i've formed from doing cardio-thoracic and transplant anesthesia for a while... now i might be wrong, and i'll be the first to say "i was wrong" if i am, but i doubt it...
 
In Canada we have socialized federal healthcare, everybody pays so it's free (for the most part). Sure it creates higher taxes and has it's own issues but I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. I never go to the doctor as I'm in fine health, but they day I need it, I'll be glad I don't have to worry. I'll pay for the poor to get healthcare and social programs, as I sure as hell would want it if I was in the same boat as them.
 
Carguy! said:
Does anyone know for sure that our tax dollars paid for any part of the surgery?
Click to expand...
I think it's funny that this story was apparently posted as a pretext for a rant against our tax system, but no one has answered Carguy!'s first question...
 
nsxtasy said:
I think it's funny that this story was apparently posted as a pretext for a rant against our tax system, but no one has answered Carguy!'s first question...
Click to expand...

Yesterday, I read an article which said that the operation had cost 375000$ and that the Italian government had paid for it.

Unfortunately, I am not able to find this article today ! :(
 
satan_srv said:
In Canada we have socialized federal healthcare, everybody pays so it's free (for the most part). Sure it creates higher taxes and has it's own issues but I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. I never go to the doctor as I'm in fine health, but they day I need it, I'll be glad I don't have to worry. I'll pay for the poor to get healthcare and social programs, as I sure as hell would want it if I was in the same boat as them.
Click to expand...

Canada does have some good policies for their healthcare. One of the major downfalls in Canada is when a study such as nuclear, mri, etc is ordered for a patient, the waiting time is up to a year in many places whereas in America you can usually get in somewhere good within a week. You can correct me if I'm wrong, that's just the chatter down here.
 
hlweyl said:
Canada does have some good policies for their healthcare. One of the major downfalls in Canada is when a study such as nuclear, mri, etc is ordered for a patient, the waiting time is up to a year in many places whereas in America you can usually get in somewhere good within a week. You can correct me if I'm wrong, that's just the chatter down here.
Click to expand...

That's absolutely true. My mom had to wait 3 months for her MRI, it's assigned based on priority/need. There is a lot of waiting, but in the end I still see the value of the system. If you really want one there are private MRI clinics starting to pop I believe.

Basically the system will likely evolve as a public taxed system, but for the more well-off a private second system government regulated will pop up for specialized services. I'd have to do more research it's probably already happening.
 
glad to hear we did not pay for it. doesn't change the limited organs available going to a non-citizen tho...
But to say we WOULD not do this for free is completely erroneous. While someone with zero coverage can not make office visits without paying cash, they can certainly walk into literally ANY ER in the country and the ER is legally bound to treat any life threatening illness. I put epidurals in uninsured patients (98% hispanics, not sure if they are illegals, but 99.99% don't speaka-the-ingleesh) all the time. Will i get paid? no way. it wouldn't bother me, except for this: they will sue my ass into the ground if anything happens, regardless of the fact that i am "goodwilling" their procedure. so i still pay out of my own pocket for malpracice for those procedures, knowing i won't get reimbursed. Other example. any pregnant person, regardless, will have full medical care if they are in labor. Fine, fine, not the fetus' fault i suppose, but I am required by law to provide the anesthesia for free, and the same caveat of liability holds true... if i screw up on a freebie, i can, and will, be sued. or better yet: prisoners getting heart bypass operations or heart transplants (this is not an exaggeration...true cases) paid for by me and you.
 
nsxtasy said:
I think it's funny that this story was apparently posted as a pretext for a rant against our tax system, but no one has answered Carguy!'s first question...
Click to expand...

sorry, missed...

this was a rant about giving a person "outside" the system organs that i think should be preferentially given to US citizens first. And incidentally, it is maddening to see our tax dollars used for that purpose. I am happy to hear it was privately funded, but still pissed they would choose someone from 12000 miles away over someone here.
 
what do you mean you don't get paid for it? you have a salary of some sort?

its a matter of public policy, we don't want professional to use less care even though their not being paid for the work.

same w/ lawyers that do pro bono work...still liable for malpractice.
 
I am required to cover the ER if i work at a hospital. most hospitals have this policy. I do the work of the un-insured, and send a bill. So, strictly speaking, it is not a "freebie" since i send a bill. But if someone can't afford the health insurance, the chances of me getting paid are slim. some rare people pay, but it is about as common as seeing a black footed ferret in your backyard... the hospital, surgeon, pharmacy, etc also eat the bill. so it's not like i'm the only one getting the shaft.
and no, i don't alter care cause i won't get paid. really, the only way for me to do that is to refuse to administer the anesthesia.. places that are extremely heavily uninsured (the county facility) pays their own "house doctors" because no one can make a living working for free.. that's where the majority of indigent health care dollars would be spent, since all docs are salaried by the state... again, it's not that i mind doing charity, it's that i mind if the freebie sues me..
 

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