Was the NSX community more in touch with the market than Acura?

[blue_myriddn]

Back in 2012 Honcho started a topic "NSX Price is Right!" in which a number of members of this forum chimed in on what they though the MSRP of the then 2015 NSX would be. It was a quick snapshot with real numbers on customer expectations. Acura of course surprised 89% of with the MSRP of $158k. The problem of course is that few people seem to want to pay that much, especially once extras are added on. While there are a select model who see the value, by in large it is viewed as overpriced.

Evidence suggests that the community saw that coming and perhaps tried to steer Acura in the right direction if they wanted to make sales. The chart below which shows the responses broken in to $20k buckets makes a pretty clear illustration of where the perceived "market price" is for the vehicle.

 

[N Spec]

I think Honda experimented with trying to elevate their Acura brand and the NSX brand also with the high price tag. Have they actually sold nearly 800 yet? Last I checked it was somewhere north of 500?

 

[Heavymetals]

I don't think the survey was counting on the Gen2 being a hybrid.

As for being "overpriced", take a look at what else is available in the super hybrids (if they aren't "sold out" @$2.5 million @).

My $0.02? The NSX gen 2 is a bargain.

 

[blue_myriddn]

I don't think the survey was counting on the Gen2 being a hybrid.

We all knew it was going to be a sport hybrid when the survey was done.

 

[Heavymetals]

We all knew it was going to be a sport hybrid when the survey was done.

I stand corrected then.

However, a 4 year difference is still a long time between survey and product.

 

[blue_myriddn]

Perhaps, why do you feel that time is a factor? We are all very familiar with what "NSX" meant and had a grasp for what it could deliver. As it turns out, there is a very good chance that the majority of the community was 100% on target with their range of $110-130k as a STARTING price for the car. I think there is something to be said for our ability to project where demand would lie and it makes me wonder if Acura marketing would have been better off paying closer attention to its existing customer base.

 

[Heavymetals]

Time is a BIG factor in the car business.

Evidently HONDA decided that it had to redesign the car because the "time was gone" for the design it had.

One, it is a fickle market indeed for over $150k hybrids that are "toys".

Two, it doesn't help being late in the game.

Three, never having fielded a sports car that expensive was a new one for HONDA.

The community may have all been of one mind when they thought $130k was "about right", too bad they were wrong in the end.

As I said, I think the car is a bargain.

 

[blue_myriddn]

Interesting points, but I disagree with all of them.

- Honda redesigned the car because the old one wasn't selling and they wanted to retire it. More money was being made in other divisions.
- being late to the game is in my opinion irrelevant to the market price. I suspect the car would have sold equally poorly with a $158k MSRP in 2012 as it did today.
- Honda has fielded a sports car that expensive in the past, I own it. In today's dollars, the NSX2 is priced about equivalent to the NSX1. Their pricing model failed then too
- I don't think you can say that the community was wrong about a $130k price being "about right" given the mass depreciation of the 2017 market. Sounds to me like we hit the nail square on the head.

I believe that the NSX2 is indeed a bargain for a customer looking for *exactly* what the NSX2 offers. Those customers are rare though (very happy & satisfied, but rare). Just like I think that the original NSX is still a bargain at its current market price. Trying to find a buyer to agree with you though... that's the tricky bit! For the vast majority, the NSX2 is anything but a bargain and that is demonstrated simply by poor sales.

 

[Heavymetals]

Boy, for a gen1 owner you sure sound bitter.

Why mention depreciation, so what? I never bought any car as an investment and probably never will.

As for comparing dollar value over time, again, so what? Inflation is not linear across the board.

Maybe you should quit rehashing the Gen2 and start speculating on the Gen3. lol

Consider me one of those "rare" customers.

As for "poor sales", try getting qualified for a $200k auto loan for less then 2.5% if at all.

 

[blue_myriddn]

Oops - funny how the internet distorts conversations. I am anything but bitter, as most people who have met met at NSX events can attest I am delightfully chipper, especially when it comes to talking about cars. My apologies for coming across that way, certainly wasn't my intent at all.

I brought up depreciation simply as a market correction indicator. When something is not at market price, it tends to go down in value until it hits that market price. Numerical evidence suggest that has occurred to the NSX2.

Good call on cars as investments, I agree that is a bad strategy and don't follow it either. I bought my car because I liked it, no other reason.

I will disagree with the inflation argument as the price points of cars in general track it. I would argue that an $80,000 car in late nineties is about equivalent to a $160,000 car, but that would probably mean doing some math and research so it isn't likely to be worth the time. I will stand by my point though that the launch of the NSX in 1990 is comparable to the launch in 2017 in terms of Honda fielding an expensive sports car. On that point I feel you are simply incorrect.

As for speculating on Gen3, this is a Gen2 forum isn't it?

Regarding $200k auto loans, you believe that is the reason for poor sales? If so, you may want to have a good look at the market strength of other brands. Last I checked, I believe Audi is outselling the NSX at about a 2:1 ratio.

If I may summarize this discussion it seems to be: "I find the car to be a good value at its price and therefore it must be a good value at its price despite the fact that I seem to be very rare and alone in my opinion." Do you by any chance work for Acura? You seem to have something in common with them!

 

[ozone]

We kept being told by people on this forum, that the target market for NSX2 were not members of this forum. Obviously, Acura agreed.

 

[Heavymetals]

Manufactures self finance which also distorts "demand".

When I was looking, BMW was offering 0.9%.

If HONDA wants to move some cars, look for creative financing.

The car market is crap, the flood helped get rid of some excess inventory.

My market focus was on getting a super hybrid.

IMO the NSX was a bargain.

WOW looks, WHIZ BANG tech, and affordable.

 

[fastaussie]

Time is a BIG factor in the car business.

Evidently HONDA decided that it had to redesign the car because the "time was gone" for the design it had.

One, it is a fickle market indeed for over $150k hybrids that are "toys".

Two, it doesn't help being late in the game.

Three, never having fielded a sports car that expensive was a new one for HONDA.

The community may have all been of one mind when they thought $130k was "about right", too bad they were wrong in the end.

As I said, I think the car is a bargain.

Interesting points, but I disagree with all of them.

- Honda redesigned the car because the old one wasn't selling and they wanted to retire it. More money was being made in other divisions.
- being late to the game is in my opinion irrelevant to the market price. I suspect the car would have sold equally poorly with a $158k MSRP in 2012 as it did today.
- Honda has fielded a sports car that expensive in the past, I own it. In today's dollars, the NSX2 is priced about equivalent to the NSX1. Their pricing model failed then too
- I don't think you can say that the community was wrong about a $130k price being "about right" given the mass depreciation of the 2017 market. Sounds to me like we hit the nail square on the head.

sorry Heavymetals, i have to agree with all of blue_Myriddn's disagreements with you. he's not bitter, those were facts he mentioned. and he's 100% spot on...

IMO the NSX was a bargain.

WOW looks, WHIZ BANG tech, and affordable.

a bargain which very few people want. as evidenced by the car being a total sales disaster...

 

[PrimeMvr]

My opinions with a random fact or two thrown in...

Buyers always set the market, and sellers are free to participate (meet the market price that's available) or sit on their product hoping the market will shift upward.

Sellers can influence a market by controlling supply, but only if a product is in high demand. Sellers can also influence demand by meeting or exceeding expectations. That's where Acura failed initially IMHO. They hyped up the expectation to a point that even this great car has been perceived to be a disappointment by many.

I've admired the NSX since it's inception, but I was just out of college and couldn't afford one at the time. I almost bought a gen 1 a few years ago, but passed because I had my sights on the gen 2. When I saw the gen 2 start to evolve I fell in love. My poor wife has had to listen to me babble and look at every picture for three years. Some people were frustrated by the repeated delays, but I took it as "this car is going to be perfect". I eagerly waited with checkbook in hand.

I anticipated a Ferrari killer at a 125 to 150 price point. When the reality hit of midpack performance, delayed customer builds and a much higher actual price, I lost my energy to be one of the first and hit pause to see how it would shake out. I still loved the car but could see that the market wouldn't bear the messy launch, higher price, and (perceived?) lack of performance. So I waited some more.

Patience paid off and I got a value that I am happy with and will enjoy every ounce of this car. I am their target market. I love the crazy technology, the lines and the way it feels when you pound it through a corner (test drive, I pick mine up in two weeks).

I think if if they would have delivered a bit more HP, kept targeted ads running, and delivered build to order before the $210k dealer cars the market might look different today. But I'm in IT, not marketing, so what do I know They can and likely will get this turned around.

 

[fastaussie]

it's too late to turn anything around. with an unchanged 2017 model now becoming the 2018 model, the much hyped new NSX is done.

the first model year always sells the most, look at the NA1 sales. 3200 in 1991, 1200 in 1992. and then a drastic decline from there, with 600 the next year. and that NSX was a lot more competitive in performance and price, with less competition from other brands.

the new NSX is a very nice car, no doubt. but so is everything else. it's all down hill from here... :frown:

 

[nsxsupra]

the new NSX is a very nice car, no doubt. but so is everything else. it's all down hill from here... :frown:

It is sad for me to agree with you. But damn you are 100% correct. The competition is too fierce if not insanely fierce. Audi, McLaren, Ferrari, Lamboghini too strong. For NSX's price and being a Japanese car only chance it had is if it can destroy competition in all performance aspects while costing a lot less. Imagine if it had 720S performance or even 488GTB performance while costing $100k~$150k less. Then it may had a chance.

Unfortunately, it can not even be compared to entry level 570S or LP-610-4 in terms of performance and certainly nowhere near that of 720S or 488GTB. It is certainly way better than GTR but it is also priced as such. IMO it is better than 911 TurboS or R8 V10 plus or LP580-2 in similar price range. But not to general public.

Had Acura allowed 17 model to be ordered without CCB. It would had give it some competitive edge. $156k decently optioned, it would had been very competitive and likely meet the target of 800 units.

 

[Space Truckin]

Very interesting thread, seems as though the market/ public has spoken, as evidenced by Acura's $30K incentive (read price drop). I received two calls yesterday from dealers wanting to unload their 17's. To all that want a bargain....

Posted by dealer yesterday Orig MSRP....$166,800.00
Thread: Dealer Listing: New 2017 NSX Valencia Red/Black Vin#19UNC1B05HY000834 $128,207

And the hits keep on coming...
www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/ve...searchRadius=0&makeCode1=ACURA&modelCode1=NSX

 

[Mac Attack]

"Was the NSX community more in touch with the market than Acura?"

Not really.

When you sell a new product, you should always start high and then adjust if necessary. Obviously, you're going to sell more cars if you reduce the price to where more people can afford them.

The NSX community that responded to the thread had, what, an average NSX value of around $50k back then? Prices have crept up a bit recently, but maybe it's around $60k now? That's still a far cry from the now $140k models. I think it was just wishful thinking on most Primers that it would sell for less, so they could eventually move up into one themselves when used models appear in the market.

 

[Mac Attack]

I think there is something to be said for our ability to project where demand would lie and it makes me wonder if Acura marketing would have been better off paying closer attention to its existing customer base.

How can you say this until you actually have data supporting the claim?

Acura sets the price of the car based on many factors that the majority of us have no clue about. Furthermore, the existing customer base is very small, and there is an even smaller base of current NSX owners that could step up from a $50k car to a $140k car. Threads like this make us appear childish. What good does a "Told you so" do?

I would focus on helping Acura sell more. Maybe taking a poll on what content they could get rid of to lower the price, perhaps highest-ranking "bang-for-the-buck" features to add, etc.

 

[topman2005]

How can you say this until you actually have data supporting the claim?

Acura sets the price of the car based on many factors that the majority of us have no clue about. Furthermore, the existing customer base is very small, and there is an even smaller base of current NSX owners that could step up from a $50k car to a $140k car. Threads like this make us appear childish. What good does a "Told you so" do?

I would focus on helping Acura sell more. Maybe taking a poll on what content they could get rid of to lower the price, perhaps highest-ranking "bang-for-the-buck" features to add, etc.

Can't agree more ride:

 

[DocL]

How can you say this until you actually have data supporting the claim?

Acura sets the price of the car based on many factors that the majority of us have no clue about. Furthermore, the existing customer base is very small, and there is an even smaller base of current NSX owners that could step up from a $50k car to a $140k car. Threads like this make us appear childish. What good does a "Told you so" do?

I would focus on helping Acura sell more. Maybe taking a poll on what content they could get rid of to lower the price, perhaps highest-ranking "bang-for-the-buck" features to add, etc.

Right off the bat forcing the carbon brakes at $10k was a bad idea.

 

[fastaussie]

"Was the NSX community more in touch with the market than Acura?"

Not really.

because Acura is doing so well on their own! :hopelessness:

IMO it is better than 911 TurboS or R8 V10 plus or LP580-2 in similar price range. But not to general public.

the rest of your points are highly valid, but not this one. all three of those cars are better than the NSX...

 

[brandonsan]

because Acura is doing so well on their own! :hopelessness:



the rest of your points are highly valid, but not this one. all three of those cars are better than the NSX...

I have heard from several people that did the ride and drive that they liked the NSX better than the 911 T

 

[Jinks]

The car is too numb and regular feeling to fetch the money they want for it. It just doesn't give you a strong emotion. It just didn't for me. The reality is and should be a 120k dollar Japanese sports car. I think Honda finally gets it.

 

[fastaussie]

I have heard from several people that did the ride and drive that they liked the NSX better than the 911 T

some will like the NSX better, some will like the Porsche better. all a matter of personal taste. i've driven both, and would take the 911 Turbo S every time...

The car is too numb and regular feeling to fetch the money they want for it. It just doesn't give you a strong emotion. It just didn't for me. The reality is and should be a 120k dollar Japanese sports car. I think Honda finally gets it.

and coincidentally, that is now the lowest price to date where the car is being offered for sale, in the 120,000 range...