- Joined
- 23 February 2016
- Messages
- 2,591
Video from Acura focused on the Gen 2 Engine
- Thread starter Bricks and Bio
- Start date
- Joined
- 4 October 2002
- Messages
- 569
It’s a good video. I’m torn watching it. You ever see art work that many praised but you weren’t feeling it? Or dated someone that was “perfect” but lacked chemistry with you? This engine feels like that to me. It lacks character.
Contrary to what Turd said, I like the engine to be peaky. As special as the engine is, it is flat on top and it upshifts early. It stirs the soul to have the engine build up power as the revs rise and the crescendo changes over different zones in the powerband. I find the 991 GT3 engine more exciting and the one I would prefer because every time I rev it up, it gives me a smile.
The NSX engine sounds flat. Sport mode sounds like an industrial engine while sport plus just adds uninspiring induction and exhaust note. I find the k20t to have more character and better sound than NSX.
It doesn’t look beautiful. Why spend $7k on PMC red paint if the heart of the car is largely unfinished lacking color, texture and beauty. No wonder they covered the powerplant with black plastic.
I question if it is overkill to use a race engine for street application. Perhaps it is unnecessarily or too complex for a street car. Do we really need 8 oil pumps for the engine? Do we need to remove seven drain plugs to change the oil? Why does the engine have to be yanked from the chassis every 75k miles for 30 hours of labor at my dealership? What other Honda require this? And what other Honda sources out their block and heads to be casted by a competitor?
Why? I suspect it is a budget, time, investment choice they elected. They wanted to go racing so every NSX gets the same engine. It was low volume and time was running out so they wrote a check to Cosworth. It needed to be green so they cut the revs at 7500. I heard they are working on a solution so engine does not need to come out for valve adjustment. Does that make you feel they pushed it out the door before all things were thought through? Like serviceability.
It is an expensive engine and an expensive car that very few want. And the few that want it (Honda fans) can’t afford it. So here we are. Our success story end with sales volume so low they have to bring in mainstream cars to PMC to keep the red paint factory busy. They have taken the development back to Japan. One comment I heard was that American white collar staff isn’t willing to put in overtime whereas they will in Japan because they pour their heart into the development.
If Honda is committed to this car and will continue to fund it, we will see improvements in interior, powertrain, and weight reduction. Hopefully, they will also inject more soul to the powertrain so they can ignite the passion in our hearts.
Contrary to what Turd said, I like the engine to be peaky. As special as the engine is, it is flat on top and it upshifts early. It stirs the soul to have the engine build up power as the revs rise and the crescendo changes over different zones in the powerband. I find the 991 GT3 engine more exciting and the one I would prefer because every time I rev it up, it gives me a smile.
The NSX engine sounds flat. Sport mode sounds like an industrial engine while sport plus just adds uninspiring induction and exhaust note. I find the k20t to have more character and better sound than NSX.
It doesn’t look beautiful. Why spend $7k on PMC red paint if the heart of the car is largely unfinished lacking color, texture and beauty. No wonder they covered the powerplant with black plastic.
I question if it is overkill to use a race engine for street application. Perhaps it is unnecessarily or too complex for a street car. Do we really need 8 oil pumps for the engine? Do we need to remove seven drain plugs to change the oil? Why does the engine have to be yanked from the chassis every 75k miles for 30 hours of labor at my dealership? What other Honda require this? And what other Honda sources out their block and heads to be casted by a competitor?
Why? I suspect it is a budget, time, investment choice they elected. They wanted to go racing so every NSX gets the same engine. It was low volume and time was running out so they wrote a check to Cosworth. It needed to be green so they cut the revs at 7500. I heard they are working on a solution so engine does not need to come out for valve adjustment. Does that make you feel they pushed it out the door before all things were thought through? Like serviceability.
It is an expensive engine and an expensive car that very few want. And the few that want it (Honda fans) can’t afford it. So here we are. Our success story end with sales volume so low they have to bring in mainstream cars to PMC to keep the red paint factory busy. They have taken the development back to Japan. One comment I heard was that American white collar staff isn’t willing to put in overtime whereas they will in Japan because they pour their heart into the development.
If Honda is committed to this car and will continue to fund it, we will see improvements in interior, powertrain, and weight reduction. Hopefully, they will also inject more soul to the powertrain so they can ignite the passion in our hearts.
Just wondering, what year NSX do you currently own @ Silver F16? I enjoyed our 91 for 5 years and the 2001 for 14 years. I think the new NSX is extraordinary looking. I also like the idea that the engine is special. I really don't care how many people are purchasing the car. I did not want a volume car like the Mid Engine Corvette where 20,000 in the first year is a starting number. The NSX has always been an outliner, different. I have the Nouvelle Blue Pearl which is one of the best looking blues I have ever owned. It just plain standouts as beautiful. And of course that is just my opinion.
point being you did not buy new...why would you when you can buy used all day at 120-130.....and I agree for the outlier it is a great car, and will always be a rare treat at cars and coffee. The facts are the facts...If they want a very low production sports car at the msrp price it and the buying experience needs to be more bespoke/more choice.......otherwise as is you will have the status quo...
Silver
If you wrote this on a Porsche or Ferrari site you'd be getting death threats! Sacre bleu as the French use to say.
The staccato you wantonly adore is just not a by product of turbo motors so my advise is to move on to those torque less normally asperated dinosaurs while you can still get them as they will shortly be legislated out of existence by the green police.
Notice how quietly Porsche moved their mainline 911 models into turbo power without putting the turbo sticker on the back. Porsche GT models are getting more and more difficult to comply to euro standards and are being choked with particle filters.
Those seductive high revving sports cars are great ( I've had numerous 911's) for a while. But to live with the droning at highway speeds and the ridiculous picture of pulling into a nice restaurant valet revving 7k looks a bit childish now.
I like the DNA of my NSX motor and the satisfaction it's not likely to implode at the first track day. I think Porsche use to race what they sold, not so much now. I only mention Porsche as you used it as a comparison.
Honda looked into the future and saw what Porsche saw in their 918 and not one of their faithful asked for a discount on Porsche! No one is complaining that the 918 battery replacement is ….$200K!!! They have big boy pockets. What does that say about the NSX buyer or those carping on this board. Those that have trouble with the maintenance cost of an NSX should move on to a lesser involving sports car, like a 12 cylinder Ferrari out of warranty. (joking).
I say it's a car many want but can't afford ergo the Vett comparison. Sport cars and private golf memberships are dying now. Congrats to Honda for building the second gen.
Jimmy aka sled driver
If you wrote this on a Porsche or Ferrari site you'd be getting death threats! Sacre bleu as the French use to say.
The staccato you wantonly adore is just not a by product of turbo motors so my advise is to move on to those torque less normally asperated dinosaurs while you can still get them as they will shortly be legislated out of existence by the green police.
Notice how quietly Porsche moved their mainline 911 models into turbo power without putting the turbo sticker on the back. Porsche GT models are getting more and more difficult to comply to euro standards and are being choked with particle filters.
Those seductive high revving sports cars are great ( I've had numerous 911's) for a while. But to live with the droning at highway speeds and the ridiculous picture of pulling into a nice restaurant valet revving 7k looks a bit childish now.
I like the DNA of my NSX motor and the satisfaction it's not likely to implode at the first track day. I think Porsche use to race what they sold, not so much now. I only mention Porsche as you used it as a comparison.
Honda looked into the future and saw what Porsche saw in their 918 and not one of their faithful asked for a discount on Porsche! No one is complaining that the 918 battery replacement is ….$200K!!! They have big boy pockets. What does that say about the NSX buyer or those carping on this board. Those that have trouble with the maintenance cost of an NSX should move on to a lesser involving sports car, like a 12 cylinder Ferrari out of warranty. (joking).
I say it's a car many want but can't afford ergo the Vett comparison. Sport cars and private golf memberships are dying now. Congrats to Honda for building the second gen.
Jimmy aka sled driver
- Joined
- 23 February 2016
- Messages
- 2,591
In the corporate America I work in, folks who lead successful projects are rewarded. Once in a while when some carries out an initiative that management wanted but goes not so far, folks also get rewarded. Having Turd moved up to a VP role fits in the latter bucket.
In this case, we really got a great car but the dummy moves in the project (really late, not nose lift, thin customization and the beautifully articulated points from F16) contributed to tepid sales
In this case, we really got a great car but the dummy moves in the project (really late, not nose lift, thin customization and the beautifully articulated points from F16) contributed to tepid sales
Agree. I think folks are slowly coming around to the NC1. It's kind of like the NA1/NA2 that way- a slow selling, under-appreciated exotic that really does deliver and we won't realize how good it is until 10 years after it is out of production. That said, I still have mixed feelings over the Cosworth engine. I think it was definitely a rush job when they realized the transverse J35 wasn't going to cut it for GT3 racing. I would have preferred to see a real Honda engine in the car, as it is what the marque is known for and the legend of the C30/32. Ted kind of bashed it in the video, but the C was designed by Honda's F1 guys and it had a real appeal. It did very well in JGTC racing and at Le Mans, so I'm not sure I would agree with him. I'm an executive at a Fortune 200 company too and I can definitely see a bit of the corporate game of "selling the decision" after it's made in this. They chose Cosworth and are now stuck with Cosworth, so they might as well "celebrate" it. It did add $50k to the sticker price though, which is the main issue affecting sales in my opinion. At $120k, this car is a no-brainer.
Mrs. Honcho has been quietly signaling an interest in track driving, so I'm watching the NC1 as a potential option for her, though she's got her eye on the new Vette right now. Here's my wish list for the MMC (likely in 2021):
- A real luxury infotainment system that competes with its peers, not the clunky 2010 parts bin unit that it is in there
- Get better sound out of the engine. It can be done, even with the turbos. (firing order maybe?); the car should have a track mode that is wild.
- Less complex servicing. 7 oil drains? Filter through the trunk? Really??
- Cup holders!
- Style update to reflect current brand styling + more throwback to the original cues (longer tail?) Where is [MENTION=18349]N Spec[/MENTION]? LOL
- Joined
- 23 February 2016
- Messages
- 2,591
I just don't see a big investment in the program coming from Honda.
I also work at a Fortune 200 shop and if the sales numbers are not in line with requirements, the only chance a program has to survive is it furthers a strategic imperative.
The NSX is really the only Honda car that you could connect to their racing thing (no I won't give you the Civic Type R)
I keep focusing on the lack of a nose list. Many folks have to park in a garage at work and they typically have ramps that are too steep for the NSX (pretty much any incline is too steep for the car).
Lucky for me we moved to the Midwest and this place is as flat as can be (they have to fake it by naming towns with geographically false names like Vernon Hills).
I also work at a Fortune 200 shop and if the sales numbers are not in line with requirements, the only chance a program has to survive is it furthers a strategic imperative.
The NSX is really the only Honda car that you could connect to their racing thing (no I won't give you the Civic Type R)
I keep focusing on the lack of a nose list. Many folks have to park in a garage at work and they typically have ramps that are too steep for the NSX (pretty much any incline is too steep for the car).
Lucky for me we moved to the Midwest and this place is as flat as can be (they have to fake it by naming towns with geographically false names like Vernon Hills).
No corporate marketing wizardly can overcome this kind of thoughtful critique - well said Silver F16. In looking at the competition in this price range... one could mention a used 458 or a used 650S/12C, Huracan as well. The one competitive advantage Honda could have had was to keep servicing and maintenance cost to a minimum. However, ~$20k for a engine-out valve job is just crazy. Emotional experience aside... The NC1 is much too expensive for what it is. I'm definitely in the market for one once the prices come down where the value is comparable with others, given the emotional/performance/upkeep balance i'm comfortable with is achieved.
btw.. if Honda is listening... an available Extended Factory Warranty program could be a competitive advantage for the NC1 no others can compete with. Every 911 generation that comes out... Porsche builds the best 911 beater. They are incredible at that kind of incremental but consistent progress. The NC1 was a half-baked 911 competitor. I hope they build an "NC2" from Japan. Let's start with that awful, MDX-grade, interior.
drmanny3,
Concur! I wasn't looking for a car till this come back on my radar after seeing it at the Phx auto show. Drove it fantastic!This car rocks, looks, design, ride, performance, cutting edge technology. I've had multiple Porsches they just recycle the same design and up the price and arrogantly act like they are doing you a favor to sell you the car.
Interesting nobody complained about Porsches 918 price or weight nor the $200k to replace the battery.
Jimmy aka sled driver
Concur! I wasn't looking for a car till this come back on my radar after seeing it at the Phx auto show. Drove it fantastic!This car rocks, looks, design, ride, performance, cutting edge technology. I've had multiple Porsches they just recycle the same design and up the price and arrogantly act like they are doing you a favor to sell you the car.
Interesting nobody complained about Porsches 918 price or weight nor the $200k to replace the battery.
Jimmy aka sled driver
Hey glad to hear your enthusiasm. I really don't understand why folks feel so inclined to bad mouth a car like the NC1. We should be happy that Honda/Acura spent the money and the effort to produce a car like the NC1. It was no small undertaking. A lot of things happened during that process. The Great Recession could have killed the car all together. Just take a moment and think about how you would feel if Honda/Acura chose not to bring the car back. What would you be saying then? Frankly I remember all the Winey Bitches and their complaints back when the 91 came out, followed by the 95 then the 97 and finally the 2002. It would be one thing if the folks complaining had themselves ever been responsible for design, production, and marketing of a milestone product like the previous generation NSX or the NC1. I understand critiques, but to just complain like you could have done better, give me a break. Yes, the engine is expensive. As I understand it is a race ready engine. I recall when the previous NSX engine was developed that Honda specifically manufactured special blocks that could be raced but only made a few of them. As far as I know they are long gone. The engines that ended up in the cars were great but were never intended for racing. If I am wrong please feel free to correct me. While I am too old to go racing at this point in my life, I do really appreciate the uniqueness of the engine. It is one of the reasons I was willing to fork over the cash. My recommendation is to find a car you can be happy with and enjoy the damn thing.
I agree. The unless you’ve had one in your garage there is no reason to bad mouth the NC1. However I certainly have many reasons why the car is a failure.
Last edited:
Thank you for your comments. While I do not know all the circumstances surrounding your issue. I believe that you had your car taken back by Honda/Acura via the Lemon Law in your State. The real question is did it work correctly when new? My understanding (very limited) was that a particular dealership worked on your car and the result was an unacceptable vehicle. Correct me if I am wrong. I can only imagine the crap you went through trying to get your car back to its original condition. That really sucks big time. Were they (Acura) ever able to figure out what was wrong and why it happened? Hopefully, at some point you will come back into ownership of a NSX.
My car had several small problems before the gas tank fiasco. The car spent a total of 36 days at a dealership for service during the first ten months that I had it. After eight rear tires in 1,500 miles I said enough of this and started my Lemon Law process. I'm not going to get involved in another longwinded discussion. The car is gone and that's all that matters. Acura doesn't know how to treat the caliper of the customer who gets one of these cars.
I hear you. I cannot imagine how miserable you must have been during that period of time. My sense is that the dealerships I am visiting (three thus far in Southern California) are going out of their way to treat me well. So perhaps it was a launch that went really badly. I have read a lot of the marketing materials and gone through the training materials that Acura developed for their technicians and the service advisors. They were very impressive. However, they are only as good as the collective will to follow. I have been teaching transformational change and leadership for almost 30 years and can tell you from experience that sometimes, actually many times there are those who just can not make the leap and remain buried in the past. My recommendation is to forgive them and move on to your next adventure. It is all about Karma and Life is just too damn short. By the way we have similar taste Nouvelle Blue/Orchid.
The original C30A 3.0L PGM-FI engine block is derived from Honda's original V-6 engine that was developed for the Acura Legend. They set the V-spacing at 90 degrees because, at the time (~1986), Honda planned to expand the design to a V8. The V8 never happened, but the C30 kept the 90-degree spacing. The NSX block is essentially a reinforced C-series block with 6-bolt mains and larger oil passages. No special racing blocks were cast. Instead, Honda pulled engines off of the NSX-R line that were already dynamically balanced and sent them over to Mugen for race modifications (dry sump, ITB, etc). At least until 2002, NSX race engines in Le Mans, JGTC and ADAC were running on factory production blocks. The IMSA Acura Spice cars also were running factory 3.0 liter blocks. Unlike the NC1, the NA1 engine was never intended for racing but nevertheless found itself well-suited to the task. The NC1, by contrast, is a full-up race car engine in a street car.
