Turbo or SC in the Denver Area?

[dfdtruckie]

Anyone with experience in turbo or a SC NSX. Looking at installing one and would really appreciate your input, good and bad etc... Checked some of the other threads and found concerns about emissions, cold and hard starts, high idle etc..
Thank you

 

[dawk]

Which kits? The Comptech uses stock cats (out of the box) so it will pass emissions. The Angus turbo kit does not use cats, but Angus can make a kit with cats. Or you can purchase the Angus kit and every 2 years swap in cats to pass emissions, or put it back to stock to pass (PITA).

 

[dfdtruckie]

I was looking at both of them actually. Wanted to see if there were any issues with a car at this elevation. I'm having a little trouble finding someone that can tune the angus kit. Any suggestions? Spoke to Chris at Flatirons and he is not much of a fan of the turbo option but the angus kit is a very appealing price point.

 

[Sleek]

I was going to say Chris at Flatirons but I knew he leans more toward the supercharger. There is a place in Wheatridge called 3 zero 3. Their shop is about I-70 and Ward road, I am not completely sure all that they do. I know of them because they are close to my shop and I see some nice cars there. I remember reading a post on here recently of someone taking their NSX to them ( 3 zero 3 ) and they were happy with them. Not sure if this helps but I guess worth a call to them..
Bob

 

[latzke]

Both can work great at high-altitude given proper tuning based off the right parameters (so things don't get too rich at high altitude if tuned at lower altitude, or get too lean at low altitude if tuned at higher altitude).

Both can also have issues. In fairness the one CTSC I've seen have issues was an Autorotor kit on an OBDII NSX (so used the ASM piggy-back) which doesn't apply to you (OBDI) and the one turbo I've seen with issues was fairly old and never setup properly. In both cases they were too rich at high altitude.

I'm a bit biased toward fixed-displacement SC (CTSC, SOS) as that is what I have and I like the linear power increase and consistency of response to throttle inputs.

However, turbo (or centrifugal SC like Bash Boost) may not lose as much power as you get higher and air gets thinner (able to maintain similar boost levels if limited by regulator and not capacity of turbos).

Have you considered a LoveFab turbo? Cody is between SOS and Angus on price and has a good reputation. He'll also have a lot of high-altitude experience come the second week of July and will be in Colorado some this year (building a Pikes Peak Hill Climb NSX to run in July and tentatively attending NSXPO in Sept). Of course he'll probably be unavailable leading up to the hill climb (busy with prep/testing/etc)...but I'll go out on a limb and assume he'd stick around if he had a customer lined up for install/tune in the days that follow.

 

[dfdtruckie]

Both can work great at high-altitude given proper tuning based off the right parameters (so things don't get too rich at high altitude if tuned at lower altitude, or get too lean at low altitude if tuned at higher altitude).

Both can also have issues. In fairness the one CTSC I've seen have issues was an Autorotor kit on an OBDII NSX (so used the ASM piggy-back) which doesn't apply to you (OBDI) and the one turbo I've seen with issues was fairly old and never setup properly. In both cases they were too rich at high altitude.

I'm a bit biased toward fixed-displacement SC (CTSC, SOS) as that is what I have and I like the linear power increase and consistency of response to throttle inputs.

However, turbo (or centrifugal SC like Bash Boost) may not lose as much power as you get higher and air gets thinner (able to maintain similar boost levels if limited by regulator and not capacity of turbos).

Have you considered a LoveFab turbo? Cody is between SOS and Angus on price and has a good reputation. He'll also have a lot of high-altitude experience come the second week of July and will be in Colorado some this year (building a Pikes Peak Hill Climb NSX to run in July and tentatively attending NSXPO in Sept). Of course he'll probably be unavailable leading up to the hill climb (busy with prep/testing/etc)...but I'll go out on a limb and assume he'd stick around if he had a customer lined up for install/tune in the days that follow.

How was your experience with your SC? Was the install painless? Did you do it yourself or have it done for you? Was it a kit(CT or SOS etc)? Have you noticed a drop in MPG? Thanks

 

[dawk]

I was looking at both of them actually. Wanted to see if there were any issues with a car at this elevation. I'm having a little trouble finding someone that can tune the angus kit. Any suggestions? Spoke to Chris at Flatirons and he is not much of a fan of the turbo option but the angus kit is a very appealing price point.

I think I am going to pull the trigger and purchase the Angus turbo kit within a year. Have bought most of the "extra" items already. The best AEM tuner around here is Servion down in the Springs.

 

[dfdtruckie]

I think I am going to pull the trigger and purchase the Angus turbo kit within a year. Have bought most of the "extra" items already. The best AEM tuner around here is Servion down in the Springs.

Sounds good. Thats what I was also considering. Spoke to the Servion/Rev performance guys and was told that the car may not pass emissions in Denver due to the AEM EMF on the kits. I'm still doing research.

 

[dawk]

Sounds good. Thats what I was also considering. Spoke to the Servion/Rev performance guys and was told that the car may not pass emissions in Denver due to the AEM EMF on the kits. I'm still doing research.

Are you going to install yourself?

 

[dfdtruckie]

Are you going to install yourself?

I was considering doing the install myself but not sure if the money sayed would be worth it. How about you?

 

[dawk]

I will install myself.

 

[dfdtruckie]

Well you have go to keep me informed on the progress of your install. If you would like an extra set of hands , I would love to help you just for the learning experience. I'm not sure if Angus posted step by step directions for his kit. A few of the other owners had some pretty good pics.

 

[latzke]

How was your experience with your SC? Was the install painless? Did you do it yourself or have it done for you? Was it a kit(CT or SOS etc)? Have you noticed a drop in MPG? Thanks

CTSC.

Previous owner (my dad) had Pikes Peak Acura install it 12 years, 20k miles ago. Pretty much a bolt-on thing (I don't think they did any tuning/adjusting on a dyno) but that isn't to say it didn't require quite a few hours.

Sole issue has been a leak in one braided stainless steel fuel line. I replaced all the lines with the better ones that are part of the current kits. There is a thread on the stainless lines rupturing in the FI section if you're curious.

Hit to MPG didn't seem much with basic kit, but I'm sure is noticeable after upgrade to high-boost version, short gears, and 4.55 R&P. Stories about 32 MPG crusing on interstate not happening to me. Since I started keeping track 16 fill-ups ago, I've hit 27 MPG twice (one leg of drive to Vegas for NSXPO 2010 and driving from my house to Byers, CO early in the AM). Normal seems to be 23-24 MPG (I think same ballpark as my 1990 4-cyl accord...but a lot more fun). Depends on how you drive...and the whole point of FI is to add air so you can burn more fuel - which creates opportunity to decrease fuel economy. :biggrin:

 

[latzke]

dawk & dfdtruckie - since you mention emissions compliance, what years are your cars?

Make sure you consider the yaer when picking/ordering a kit and/or components. My understanding is you can't yank out the OEM ECU on a 1995+ and pass emissions because ODBII needs to remain present...but that with a 1991-1994 you can drop in an AEM EMS and it doesn't matter as long as you pass the dyno+sniffer test (which you'll need cats for).

Seems the modern kits generally go for AEM FIC piggy-backed on the OEM ECU for 1995-2005 and AEM EMS (replace OEM ECU) for 1991-1994. There is a "Series 2" EMS for the 1995+ vehicles that sounds like the bees knees (even better than EMS available for 1991-1994) and maintains OBDII functions, but I'm not sure if that means it would pass CO emissions or not (disclaimer is that it is not for emissions controlled vehicles...but that may be due to really strict rules like in CA).

My 1991 has the old-school fueling system for the CTSC (rising rate FPR + check valve in vacuum line so MAP sensor doesn't see boost + OEM ECU).

 

[dawk]

I am OBDII. I will have a FIC piggyback. I think I am going to either have Angus fab up some cats that I can put on during emissions sniff test. Or, I may just take the kit off and install oem cats for emissions. I already have to lift my car in order to clear the rollers and also have to put the stock cats in to pass emissions currently.

 

[dfdtruckie]

dawk & dfdtruckie - since you mention emissions compliance, what years are your cars?

Make sure you consider the yaer when picking/ordering a kit and/or components. My understanding is you can't yank out the OEM ECU on a 1995+ and pass emissions because ODBII needs to remain present...but that with a 1991-1994 you can drop in an AEM EMS and it doesn't matter as long as you pass the dyno+sniffer test (which you'll need cats for).

Seems the modern kits generally go for AEM FIC piggy-backed on the OEM ECU for 1995-2005 and AEM EMS (replace OEM ECU) for 1991-1994. There is a "Series 2" EMS for the 1995+ vehicles that sounds like the bees knees (even better than EMS available for 1991-1994) and maintains OBDII functions, but I'm not sure if that means it would pass CO emissions or not (disclaimer is that it is not for emissions controlled vehicles...but that may be due to really strict rules like in CA).

My 1991 has the old-school fueling system for the CTSC (rising rate FPR + check valve in vacuum line so MAP sensor doesn't see boost + OEM ECU).

Is it possible to go with a system like yours for my 92? So your system doesn't interfer with the ECU? throw check engine lights? Cat problems? I'm trying to go with a reliable FI that will be able to get tuned and pass emissions. What kit do you have? Intercooler? Have you had any issues at altitude with idle, starting etc..?
Thank you

 

[kookoo4nsx]

Installing the kit yourself is very rewarding. You will need a lift or as I did, jackstands in my garage. The worst part was replacing my old cast iron headers with late model stock headers. Everything else just fit together like a puzzle and fitament was dead on. I installed everything myself except the AEM F/IC, gauges and fuel injectors. You can drive the car on stock ecm and stock injectors as long as you don't boost AT ALL.

I really learned A LOT about my car overall by doing the install by myself.
400hp is very rewarding and I have no problem keeping up with my friends 2001 Porsche Turbo.

You will need to upgrade your clutch if you go over 350rwhp and I recommend upgrading your brake pads!

I will install myself.

 

[dawk]

Installing the kit yourself is very rewarding. You will need a lift or as I did, jackstands in my garage. The worst part was replacing my old cast iron headers with late model stock headers. Everything else just fit together like a puzzle and fitament was dead on. I installed everything myself except the AEM F/IC, gauges and fuel injectors. You can drive the car on stock ecm and stock injectors as long as you don't boost AT ALL.

I really learned A LOT about my car overall by doing the install by myself.
400hp is very rewarding and I have no problem keeping up with my friends 2001 Porsche Turbo.

You will need to upgrade your clutch if you go over 350rwhp and I recommend upgrading your brake pads!

Yes. Totally agree. I have done everything on my car minus the timing belt. I had the chance to look at a previous owners that had he kit installed and it looked pretty straight forward. I think I can get everything put together included the gauges. I was worried about the oil tap, but it does not look that hard. Only step that looks to be somewhat difficult is the oil pump wiring. I have the updated headers and sway bar, so no worries there. I am planning on getting my clutch upgraded soon. Shooting for 400whp.

 

[latzke]

Is it possible to go with a system like yours for my 92?

Yes. Lots of people poo-poo the low-tech solution, but it's worked on hundreds of NSXs with the old Whipple CTSC. This may still be how CT is doing their kit today for the 1991-1994 (that, or this plus EMS FIC to add a little more fuel).

So your system doesn't interfer with the ECU? throw check engine lights?

Right. The check valve keeps the ECU from seeing boost (which would cause it to throw a CEL and go into limp mode). A better way to achieve the same end is to put a voltage clamp inline. I have bought CT's ESM to upgrade to this solution (and remove check-valve), just haven't installed it yet.

Cat problems? I'm trying to go with a reliable FI that will be able to get tuned and pass emissions.

No cat problems yet, eventually they'll probably need replacement because of age and extra duty. The system I have can/does pass emissions, but isn't the best if you want a great tune as your only "knobs" are pully size, injector size, and adjusting rising-rate fuel pressure regulator. The EMS provides a lot more flexibility (change timing, change injector duty cycle, etc, etc). A good tune can be more efficient than my setup and get more power (mine has to be set a little on the rich side to be safe). If I were starting from scratch, I would go EMS today.

What kit do you have?

Early CTSC whipple + high-boost kit (smaller pulley, larger injectors). If I were going to supercharge today I would also consider SOS's kit (with EMS option). They're both great.

Intercooler?

No.

Have you had any issues at altitude with idle, starting etc..?

Sometimes it stalls a couple seconds after starting...but after the second start is fine. Idle will hunt a little (fluctuate 100 rpm up/down) when cold but normalizes up when warmed up. I think both of these have nothing to do with altitude...but probably are related to the larger injectors of the high-boost kit.

 

[dfdtruckie]

Would this be the kit?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CT-Engineer...Parts_Accessories&hash=item20acb20c2f&vxp=mtr

add the ems?

Did you install yourself?How long did it take? Tuned in Colorado? Does it feel like a completely different car after?
Thank you

 

[latzke]

Would this be the kit?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CT-Engineer...Parts_Accessories&hash=item20acb20c2f&vxp=mtr

Yes. That is the current/modern version of the kit I have. See next question als0.

add the ems?

This kit comes with the CT ASM not the CT ESM like mine did (neither should be confused with the AEM EMS). The ASM caused altitude issues for another Colorado person in Colorado, with 1995+ OBDII setup. Might do the same for you. One solution is to use ESM instead...but you remove some overall safety (could see detonation at low altitude with cool ambient air...which is why they added the ASM).

Going EMS would be the means to an optimal tune. This might also mean different using a different fuel regulator, and/or bigger injectors, and/or different fuel pump. Ask someone who knows more than I do about this (Christ Wayland at Flatirons...and/or in the Forced Induction section of Prime, if after using the search you still have questions).

Did you install yourself?How long did it take? Tuned in Colorado?

Already answered, but to reiterate:

Installed by Paul Z at Pikes Peak Acura, but a reasonable bolt-on job for a competent DIYer with two full days to dedicate to the job. Read this to understand what you would be getting yourself into before you decide to DIY.

Not tuned. FRP set appropriately by CT before they ship. Dyno run years later confirms set well (good, safe power). Doing a dyno immediately after to confirm all is good seems advisable. Call Chris Wayland (sp?) at Flatirons Acura and ask him if he does a dyno after these installs (whatever he does or recommends is probably advisable)...and to see what he says about the ESM vs ACM vs EMS.

Does it feel like a completely different car after?

Yes and no. Adding 100hp (?) to an NSX makes it feel different in that it is a good bit faster. Another change is that characteristic/iconic NSX intake growl is muted - replaced somewhat by supercharger whine. Characteristics of the power delivery (throttle response, shape of torque curve, etc) and most other things remain the same so it still drives like and NSX so maintains that character (in a more-powerful form).

 

[WillErickson]

This kit comes with the CT ASM not the CT ESM like mine did (neither should be confused with the AEM EMS). The ASM caused altitude issues for another Colorado person in Colorado, with 1995+ OBDII setup. Might do the same for you. One solution is to use ESM instead...but you remove some overall safety (could see detonation at low altitude with cool ambient air...which is why they added the ASM).

Going EMS would be the means to an optimal tune. This might also mean different using a different fuel regulator, and/or bigger injectors, and/or different fuel pump. Ask someone who knows more than I do about this (Christ Wayland at Flatirons...and/or in the Forced Induction section of Prime, if after using the search you still have questions).

I'd concur with the above (I'm the person Craig is referring to above with the OBDII altitude related issues) and take it a step further. Considering the relative proximity we have to SOS in Phoenix, consider taking your car down there for the tuning and/or install. A couple of flights to and from Phoenix is most assuredly cheaper and less hassle than blowing an engine. Plus the drive through southwest Colorado is amazing, just avoid highway 160...