trail braking

[Impetus]

Had my NSX for a couple months now. It's a 91 AT full stock. full conversion done on it later... but for now nice to have a stock car to learn from.

i attribute part of my difficulties on the AT transmission and lack of engine braking. May be alignment is totally off too. tires were dated 1996 so last time it had an alignment was probably 10 years ago!

coming from a heavy AWD turbo car, technique is totally different.

On some days, i drive the car perfectly, and she feels great. On other days I feel sloppy and everything is just off ... and I wonder to myself if I was driving it right when it felt right (just an off day) or if I am infact driving this car very wrong and dangerously.

On my other car, it's late brakes, late apex, understeer, force into over steer, when apex opens to the straight, nail the gas, soon as power to front wheels kick in, the car chews itself out. Barbaric, cave man style. Noticed relative to the GTR, need to take a more refined approach, smoother lines in the NSX. Can't over speed into the corner because lightest touch of brakes and rear comes around and loss of power band. So what I've been doing is early brake, make sure Im at right speed let off brakes slightly before the apex, relative to earlier apex into a smoother line, gradual throttle rather than full.

But I've heard with MR cars, you should trail brake because it brings traction to the front tires so you can turn. Have noticed understeer on the NSX. Scares the pi$$ out of me.

Is trail braking the right technique?

I know it's difficult to explain especially over the net but how if you guys do it, how far into the corner to you keep brakes on?

thanks.

 

[BioBanker]

I donno - Im off the brakes before I turn that wheel myself. My set up does not have any perceptable understeer, even with the 205s in the front vs 275s in the back.

You can see what Im doing in this VIDEO. Ignore the first lap, stuck behind an M3 and coasting.

 

[polar]

I did trail braking a few times on the track when I realize I was carrying too much speed into a corner. It was pretty scary.

 

[NSXGMS]

I haven't had much luck trail braking in the NSX either. I too always end up coming in too hot and the understeer pushes the car right off the line--or off the track. I have a NA2 Type-R sway setup and Type-R chassis bars.

I'm on the verge of installing the Zanardi rear sway to create more oversteer but need a couple hundred more track miles to see if I can work it out. I'm also switching suspension setups soon so I'll need to work that out as well.

I've found that trail braking really only works when you can count on a very neutral or oversteering setup like karts have. If you come in too hot you can still keep control of the front end and wont get pushed off the track and can recover.

Maybe someone with more experience than I do could comment.

 

[L8apex32]

MR cars tend to have less understeer than front-engine cars. I would think you'd feel that the NSX needs less trail braking than the front engine cars you described. If you feel a heavy tendency to understeer, then perhaps your tires are old or the alignment/setup isn't good???

Similarly, cars that are more neutrally balanced can only handle so much trail braking before oversteering. The ideas of "neutral" get into not only front/mid/rear engine, but setup, tires and what sort of track you are talking about. Decreasing radius turns or double-turn complexes can require trail braking. In some cases, when adjustable, cars may use adjustable brake bias to allow a balanced car to trail brake when otherwise, it would oversteer.

But, for stock NSXes, it should feel relatively neutral or balanced compared to most street cars. And, trail braking should be done in a slight to perhaps moderate amount depending on the situation.

The idea of braking till it slides, then nailing the gas seems to apply to front engine, front wheel drive cars and in the powerful AWD cars which behave similarly. Balanced sports cars are not usually driven in this manner for best lap times. They simply loose too much speed at the apex. They also tend to have too much roll and yaw - which makes driving them this way very hard.

Instead, try to brake as little as possible. (Put another way, try to maximize the minimum speed in the turn.) Once this, the hard part of the turn, has been maximized, then apply throttle as possible not to mess up the exit. Normally, you can just mash the throttle... but if not, apply throttle as best you can.

If none of this helps, perhaps newer/stickier tires will be a solution.

 

[sahtt]

Too general to answer definetely.

Depending on the setup, a stock NSX may find trail braking beneficial if it was a tight corner that didn't allow a lot of setup prior to it. Anything else more along the lines of a sweeper you will not want to risk getting the rear end that loose. The beauty of a MR setup on a track is the ability to stay on the gas throughout the entire corner.

Even a nearly perfectly setup front mid engine car [FD or S2k due to engine being behind front axle] is not going to have as much traction during cornering because the powerplant is simply not directly above the wheels receiving the power. At the same time, that decreases your ability to control "overstepping your bounds" at the limit as the car's cornering speeds continue to increase. Such is the case/comments regarding keeping control of the NSX Type R at the limits.

 

[kenjiMR]

first of all, why are you driving a AT NSX?

I regularly trail-braked in the NSX on the track... it is a technique you probably won't be able to do until you have mastered the feel of driving at the limit of the car.

All cars can benefit from trail braking, but oftentimes the cost of attempting to trail brake to improve laptimes can cause over deceleration which is not what you want. You want to be able to get on the gas as quickly as possible as you approach the apex.

Also sometimes I tap the brake after the initial turn in on a decreasing radius type turn to get the car to rotate. I wish I had my footage from Reno-Fernley track, there is a high speed 140+mph straight plus esses then a decreasing radius turn that I would do that regularly.

 

[Impetus]

Thanks for all the inputs. Very interesting...keep em coming

From what I've read based purely on theories, trail braking is more effective in RR cars. For MR it's more likely to be used in hairpins and decreasing radius... and if skillful enough, can do it on every type of turn. On the last presumption, does it improve lap times all other variables left constant?

I live in HK where the supply of NSX's are thin. MOst are AT and most MT have been in accidents. So I've had to buy an AT and do the conversion myself. Waiting to transfer parts over from a NA2 type S corpse.

{Can't imagine what driving a MT would be like in an NSX, the brake pedal is already quite close to the transmission wall and the shift position is really close to the driver position and a bit fwd...}

 

[docjohn]

Your street car nsx is set up to understeer.If you are a novice and you feel like the car is understeering tooooo much,,you are probably braking too late and carying too much entry speed,slow down,,i.e. slow in fast out.Brake earlier,or try this drill,don't brake at all, this forces you to go in slooow and choose the right line.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

GT NSX, I was in HK back in November and met Henry, Keno and Vincent.. Yeah, you not kidding how few nsx in HK compared to Ferrari and Porsches.

I'm suspecting you are kind of guy who liked to drive on those narrow mountain roads, not at the track? (very few of the enthusiast there had a chance to track their own car.)

I have to ask for the obvious, do you manual shift your AT nsx? I had not ever driven an AT nsx, but in my experiences, all HONDA AT doesn't like to shift between 1-2 gears... With low torque(which applies to all Honda engines), that makes driving an AT Honda that much harder.

Guys in US probably will never understand how narrow those roads are in HK, and some of the corners, you are already cheating death if you touching 60km/h. I guessed nsx couldn't be any faster than a GTR in that kind of road.

Driving a nsx does take fast hands, and anticipation of what's going to happen next. Like you mentioned a smoother line is needed.

Do you use your left foot to trail brake? That would probably be what you need to do (or learn) and give the front tires more bite upon turn in.

 

[Impetus]

GT NSX, I was in HK back in November and met Henry, Keno and Vincent.. Yeah, you not kidding how few nsx in HK compared to Ferrari and Porsches.

I'm suspecting you are kind of guy who liked to drive on those narrow mountain roads, not at the track? (very few of the enthusiast there had a chance to track their own car.)

I have to ask for the obvious, do you manual shift your AT nsx? I had not ever driven an AT nsx, but in my experiences, all HONDA AT doesn't like to shift between 1-2 gears... With low torque(which applies to all Honda engines), that makes driving an AT Honda that much harder.

Guys in US probably will never understand how narrow those roads are in HK, and some of the corners, you are already cheating death if you touching 60km/h. I guessed nsx couldn't be any faster than a GTR in that kind of road.

Driving a nsx does take fast hands, and anticipation of what's going to happen next. Like you mentioned a smoother line is needed.

Do you use your left foot to trail brake? That would probably be what you need to do (or learn) and give the front tires more bite upon turn in.

Actually the NSX I'm building will be focused for track use but I still enjoy driving on the streets. Yes it's either on very narrow mountain roads or very uneven and curvey highways, expressways.

Here's an example: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-844512776702389511&pr=goog-sl&hl=en

No I don't manual shift the AT, I want to be able to sell it when it comes out :redface:

No have not dared tried the left foot braking technique because I am not familiar with it or the car...have tried it in the GTR but I don't really know what I'm doing.

Far as what's faster, hard to compare because my skyline is highly modified and the nsx is full standard and no juice. stock for stock, i think the nsx is faster. mod for mod i think the nsx should also fair better when cornering is the main focus. Not to many straights in HK, and that's really where a GTR excels. There's a movie link somewhere on u-tube of my tuner's customer car (ITB) battling a white GTR33. That white 33 is a Auto Select car with 800ps. THe NSX is around half and giving it a good fight.



DocJon: good advise... total different state of mind

 

[NSXDreamer2]

No I don't manual shift the AT, I want to be able to sell it when it comes out

Wrong! I don't think you will harm your nsx tranny for doing manaul shift, of course you weren't doing manual shift as if you are driving a sequential box, (or F1 box in those Audi, VW and Ferrari).. the whole point is to minimize the unwanted up/down shift as auto box tends to hunt gears (and most of the time in wrong gear!) if you left it in D. down shift when you are on your brakes, up shifts when it's run out of rpm... If you do it right, the tranny is actually seeing less stress. (less gear change)

I had my 150k miles accord to prove it. (oh, flush and change auto fluid helps too.)

 

[Impetus]

cool. morning drive early tomorrow, will give it a try... thanks!

 

[nsxhk]

morning drive tomorrow?

 

[92 white 0650]

Had my NSX for a couple months now.

i attribute part of my difficulties on the AT transmission and lack of engine braking. May be alignment is totally off too. tires were dated 1996 so last time it had an alignment was probably 10 years ago!

Well, you’re right on when you say it’s difficult to explain on a forum. But I will offer a few observations at the risk of being misunderstood.

1. The NSX, like any well designed mid engine car, is all about being smooth and it is much easier to learn by riding with a very good instructor on a track and watching, feeling and hearing how (s)he does it.

2. You’ve mentioned several factors that will be corrected with time. The fact that you’re new to the car and have driven much different cars is the first hurdle that will be overcome with a few good track days. Your alignment may or may not be OK, but 10 year old tires are definitely working against you. And driving on public (dangerous?) roads isn’t going to allow you to learn about “on the edge” car control for obvious reasons. Your assessment of AWD turbo handling as being cave man style is correct and not applicable to driving the NSX well.

3. You will start to develop a smooth line and consistency with some well planned and instructed track time.

4. Don't worry about it just yet, but trail braking is a technique that helps with being smooth and it’s just a matter of degree between drivers. We teach simplicity to novices and the heavy handed cave-men; “brake and shift in a straight line; use all the grip for turning at a constant speed….yadee yadee,” etc. But that’s to make sure the student doesn’t carry too much speed into the turn or try to do too many things in the busy brake zone and turn in point. The experienced drivers all trail brake to some extent, it’s part of “balancing” the car thru the turn. But don't force it, let it come naturally.

5. Left foot braking is a great advantage to smooth trail braking. And it's easy to learn if you have an AT (or a race car that shifts without a clutch). (But, you can't safely do it with a MT NSX with the steering shaft in the way.)

Be patient til you get on the track with a good instructor/coach. Learning out of a book is good to a certain extent but there’s no substitute for first hand real time information that you see, feel, hear and experience with all senses.

Find a track with a safe group and have fun.

 

[Impetus]

That's some good info, Ted. Thank you.

I wish there was a track in this country with a good pool of instructures, I would be there every weekend, but there is not. Going to China still requires special procedures impossible to the individual. Track day organizers charge over 1250USD for 2 days. That's only including the fee and special china license. A weekend like this would cost over 3000 and occur 3-4 times a year. You guys are so lucky to have tracks everywhere with in easy access... So this makes the case for car enthusiasts to have to do it in public roads (5am runs sunday mornings have minimal traffic, but still the road surfaces are unpredictable). Which is a bit nerve racking in the NSX.

What advice do you have for tight corners and hairpins?

 

[stuntman]

Don't practice on the streets.

Go to a track day; Come over here or go to on in Japan. China dosn't have very many smaller/local tracks?

 

[Impetus]

Don't practice on the streets.

Go to a track day; Come over here or go to on in Japan. China dosn't have very many smaller/local tracks?

I never said it was the rite thing to do. But we play "safe". Anyways intention is not to go full on, in the streets to try techniques read about online. It's just data I can keep in mind as I get to understand the car. When I do get a blue moon chance to go to the track, the collected experience and inputs help.

come to the US or fly to japan? I suppose I am to check my car in at the airport.. :tongue: No really, I am planning to go to Japan actually and get some track time in with my tuner's network.

CHina does have a few smaller tracks, and a new F1 track in Shanghai. But I live in Hong Kong and there is no free cross boarder travel unless you have a license plate that costs you 37K USD per year provided you have the right connections.

HK govt does not support motorsport so currently, NO tracks here. They had the oppportunity to make the new F1 track here before it went to Shanghai. THere's no shortage of land... they opted for Disney land instead.

cry me a river right? :redface: