Track laptimes with stock brakes

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Hi Folks,

I'm interested in finding out what people's laptimes are at various tracks with their stock brake systems.

I keep hearing about folks who are able to run with their stock brake systems on their cars without any problems for entire track days while pushing the car at 9/10ths or 10/10th's.

A good metric would be laptimes, what is your average laptime for a given track and the track configuration. How long are the sessions, what's the average air temperature when those laptimes were recorded, etc.

Knowing what type of braking modifications as well as tires that you are using will be very helpful as well. Information about extensive cooling via ducting or body modifications will be useful as well. Please include the weight of the car as well.

I keep wondering if the NSX stock brake system is that great, why did every single NSX that participated in OTC made use of an aftermarket BBK system?

Remember that OTC as it was run last year was a time trial event and not a w2w racing event. I know for sure that the drivers who drove in those events are no newbies either...

Ken
 
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Ken,

I have the stock configuration on brakes, tires/wheels, and, with the exception of sway bars, suspension. Chris Croninger (sp), an instructor at a TDE event at Mororsport Ranch (a very technical track), drove my car for one of the red group sessions and he boiled my brakes. Chris may not be a pro but can definitely push the X close to its limits.
 
If you plan on doing more than 1 track event in your life, get the brakes, for safety, consistency, and yes faster lap times. My friends NSX in an advanced group ran 3:00 laps @ Road America with OEM brakes and cooked them every day. Jeff Bejeke with big brakes runs 15 sec faster than that, and Mike Bergman has run a 2:29, both were with NA NSX's.

The 3:00 NSX had slotted OEM rotors, Dali Deflectors, upgraded pads and fluid and SS lines as well. He is NOW a new Stoptech kit owner! :D

Remember as Randy Pobst says "smooth is fast". How can you be smooth, with inconsistant brake fade?
 
What can I say but if you have $8 to $10k burning a hole in your pocket - go for it.

I have added ducting, ceramic pads, Aero rotors, ATE SuperBlue, removed backing plates, and run R compounds (Yoko's) and feel very competitive with most cars. The biggest improvement is more seat time.

If you are cooking the brakes - maybe it is smoothness that is the problem? Many of the people who are turning great laps may need the brake / wheel / tire combos you recommend but many will not.

I would start with the mods I have and get a cheap set of wheels. If it doen't work well for you at your next DE and you/your instructor feels you smooth and would benifit - you could sell your setup for pretty good money and move up to the much bigger / heavier / more expensive brakes, tires, rotors, etc

Just a suggestion
 
I agree 97 percent with what Nick (matteni) has said here. Try the inexpensive way first. If you are still boiling your brakes -highly unlikely IMO - then spend the money for a big brake kit.

The three minor points on which I have only very slight disagreement (and I hope Nick doesn't mind that I mention them - no criticism of his excellent summary is intended):

matteni said:
ATE SuperBlue
There are brake fluids out there with significantly higher boiling points than ATE, so they will be more resistant to boiling. Click here for details.

matteni said:
removed backing plates
Be careful. One part of the splash shields lies between the rotors and the ball joints, and acts as an insulator. Remove them, and your ball joints could get cooked. John Vasos advises cutting off most of the shields but leaving the part between the rotor and the ball joints. (I still have my splash shields on; I had a hole cut in them and a flange welded to the edge, as a mounting point for the air ducts.)

matteni said:
I would start with the mods I have and get a cheap set of wheels. If it doen't work well for you at your next DE and you/your instructor feels you smooth and would benifit - you could sell your setup for pretty good money and move up to the much bigger / heavier / more expensive brakes, tires, rotors, etc
Keep in mind that most of the things that Nick is talking about are consumables, i.e. parts (pads, rotors, fluid, tires) that you are going to have to replace anyway. So don't worry about selling your setup for good money - just use those parts up, and if you want to get something bigger, go for it.

Originally posted by T Bell
Jeff Bejeke with big brakes runs 15 sec faster than that, and Mike Bergman has run a 2:29, both were with NA NSX's.
Jeff and Mike are perhaps the two fastest NSX drivers in the Midwest. Either one of them can jump in a bone stock NSX and run 15 seconds faster than any student. It's not the setup, it's the driver.
 
matteni said:
What can I say but if you have $8 to $10k burning a hole in your pocket - go for it.


Brand new Stoptech BBK between $1500-$1800 (depending on where you buy it)

Set of inexpensive track wheels and tires $1000-$1200

BBK + rims/tires = $2500- $2700

Safety, consistency and faster lap times= priceless

What did you spend on your brake upgrades? bet you are 1/3 to 1/2 the way towards the Stoptech kit already.

I know I know, to each their own. I just learned the hard way when starting out, and like to try to set track newbies off on the right foot when upgrading (pending they have the $$$)
 
T Bell said:
Brand new Stoptech BBK between $1500-$1800
Yeah, right. For front and rear, try $3750-4870. Add in labor, and you're looking at up to $6K.

T Bell said:
Set of inexpensive track wheels and tires $1000-$1200
I think you're smoking something. Tires alone are going to run around $600-800. There's no way you can get a set of big wheels for the difference. Remember, with big calipers, you can't use the '91-93 OEM wheels any more. A more realistic budget is about $3000-4000.

T Bell said:
Safety, consistency and faster lap times= priceless
Funny, I have safety, consistency, and faster lap times, with just the mods that Nick mentions.

T Bell said:
What did you spend on your brake upgrades?
Mine are almost exactly the same as Nick's. I assume you are asking what I spent on the brake upgrades other than consumables, since you're going to keep replacing pads, rotors, and fluid on any setup. The answer is, around $100 for the ducting.

T Bell said:
bet you are 1/3 to 1/2 the way towards the Stoptech kit already.
I guess you lose that bet, huh?

T Bell said:
I just learned the hard way when starting out, and like to try to set track newbies off on the right foot when upgrading (pending they have the $$$)
That's funny - I feel the same way. I learned the hard way when starting out, and I like to try to set track newbies off on the right foot when upgrading - so that they spend money only on the things they need, not waste money on things that they might not need, that might not make any difference.

Again, try out the inexpensive mods - the pads, rotors, ducts, and fluid. You have nothing to lose, since these are all consumables that you'll be spending on anyway. If you are still finding fade, then go spend the $8-10K for the big brake kit. But I bet you don't. (And as you can see, I win more bets than T Bell. :p )

(Note - T Bell and I are friends, we've been to the track together - so others need not get upset at a bit of ribbing.)

Other advantages of using the stock calipers include:

- the ability to use the '91-93 stock wheels, which you can buy inexpensively

- wide selection of R compound tires in the stock sizes

- the ability to drive to the track on your street tires, because you can fit your track tires inside the car if you don't have a companion with you
 
Well Ken I can buy a Stoptech kit brand new for $1500 (rotors, calipers, pads, lines, hdw. Installing is a breeze. If anyone is stupid enough to pay more than $200 for installation, I will open a side business today!!! You can get a kit installed in 2 hours solo. (it really is simple)

As far as rims, shop around!!! I can buy (and sell) brand new 17/18'S or even 17/17's (NSX offsets) for under $750. Add tires (street for rookies, or R's for int.) for around another $750 or less for street tires, still equals $3000 for everything.

Who said you need new rims for the track??? you can find used rims. Steve got a set of SSR's with R's on them used for $1200

I say for this newbie, he gets a set of cheap used 17/18's, and buys some Yokohama ES tires.

Now if the BBK was at Brembo pricing, I would NEVER recommend that. But a BBK for an NSX for under $2G thats a steal. Even IF (as you would say) it doesn't improve your lap times, they will still look killer next to your OEM sized ones! :D

I want to see Jeff beat me by 15 sec with OEM brakes!! I was timing him and his brother with the E36, and he got slower!!! My Integra's times were faster.

Now Mike, he is a crazy nut! I miss him on the track. I loved seeing him beat DRM and Mallet Z06's and Viper GTS's with a NA NSX with over 100,000 miles on it!

PS I am via San Fran once again here NOT during NSXPO :mad: timing is everything I guess. Hope to see you @ the dinner in Jan.
 
Sorry, T Bell, but I think you're giving bad advice. You are telling someone to go out and spend thousands of dollars on something he probably doesn't need. Why not see if he needs it first - and, in the extremely likely event that he doesn't, he won't have wasted all that money. What's wrong with that strategy?

I also don't understand the advice about the ES tires. They're a great budget tire, to be sure, but what does that have to do with advice about track use? :confused:

P.S. Are you talking about only a front big brake kit, or four wheels? I want to know where I can get a four-wheel kit at a two-wheel price. :D
 
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Folks,

I agree that better ventilated brakes will make a difference, but as I mentioned earlier there are no Aero-rotors nor Project U rotors available for the 97+ brake system, so that's a no-go. I would have gone this route first if I had a choice.

Let's get back to the topic here, I would like to know what are the average laptimes that folks are able to achieve with their stock brake system who don't have fading problems. Not what other people are able to achieve with their cars, but what you can achieve with your NSX.

And I would like to have an honest assesment, if the funds that are related to the BBK upgrade are not an issue then would you personally chose to upgrade the system, if so why?

Thanks,

Ken

BTW: I suspect that I will be the first NSX owner who tracks their NSX frequently who has the front/rear Stoptech BBK installed. I'll post some feedback for others to read later on.
 
2slow2speed said:

Let's get back to the topic here, I would like to know what are the average laptimes that folks are able to achieve with their stock brake system who don't have fading problems. Not what other people are able to achieve with their cars, but what you can achieve with your NSX.
This is a great discussion, but making any conclusions based on lap times and difference in brakes is next to impossible. Improving the braking performance is one of the least effective ways to improve lap times. Since some folks mentioned Road America, please measure the amount of time you are braking during a typical Road America lap, it is a low percentage of the lap time to start with and making even a 10% improvement is darn hard to do, therefore 10% improvement of a low number is a really low number. I won’t even go into the physics that 10% better deceleration doesn’t improve your time to-distance times 10%. If you want to improve lap times use the following priority:

- Improve the driver
- Better tires
- Better suspension
- Weight reduction
- Power increases
- Brakes
- Gearing, differentials, and other

I probably missed some things, but my point is that brakes are way down the list and for some vehicles would be listed last.

Bob
btw my race car has stock brakes
 
T Bell said:
Well Ken I can buy a Stoptech kit brand new for $1500 (rotors, calipers, pads, lines, hdw. Installing is a breeze. If anyone is stupid enough to pay more than $200 for installation, I will open a side business today!!! You can get a kit installed in 2 hours solo. (it really is simple)

As far as rims, shop around!!! I can buy (and sell) brand new 17/18'S or even 17/17's (NSX offsets) for under $750. Add tires (street for rookies, or R's for int.) for around another $750 or less for street tires, still equals $3000 for everything.

Who said you need new rims for the track??? you can find used rims. Steve got a set of SSR's with R's on them used for $1200

I say for this newbie, he gets a set of cheap used 17/18's, and buys some Yokohama ES tires.

Now if the BBK was at Brembo pricing, I would NEVER recommend that. But a BBK for an NSX for under $2G thats a steal. Even IF (as you would say) it doesn't improve your lap times, they will still look killer next to your OEM sized ones! :D

I want to see Jeff beat me by 15 sec with OEM brakes!! I was timing him and his brother with the E36, and he got slower!!! My Integra's times were faster.

Now Mike, he is a crazy nut! I miss him on the track. I loved seeing him beat DRM and Mallet Z06's and Viper GTS's with a NA NSX with over 100,000 miles on it!

PS I am via San Fran once again here NOT during NSXPO :mad: timing is everything I guess. Hope to see you @ the dinner in Jan.



Show me a advertised price of $1500-$1800 for the front Stoptech BBK I have never seen it advertised for lower than $1895.


My used SSRs were more like $1400 now that YOU brought it up.
 
Originally posted by 1BADNSX This is a great discussion, but making any conclusions based on lap times and difference in brakes is next to impossible.

I totally agree.

Originally posted by 1BADNSX Improving the braking performance is one of the least effective ways to improve lap times.

I totally agree. As long as "braking performance" is defined as shorter braking distances. R compounds and good aggressive pads are much more cost effective. But if "braking performance" as defined as not fading from pad or fluid, then perhaps not. Again, with a BBK heat just isn't an issue anymore. I do understand what you're saying though, and totally agree.

Originally posted by 1BADNSX btw my race car has stock brakes

Key words: race car. By nature much lighter than a stock or close to stock vehicle.

Originally posted by 1BADNSX I probably missed some things, but my point is that brakes are way down the list and for some vehicles would be listed last.

Again, totally agree. Unless, you're having problems with the stock brakes and consider it a safety item.
 
Steven Spanbauer said:
Show me a advertised price of $1500-$1800 for the front Stoptech BBK I have never seen it advertised for lower than $1895.

My used SSRs were more like $1400 now that YOU brought it up.

It's not advertised. But a certain, much maligned, and vendor of "ill repute" sells them for the call in or email price of $1500. It's a good deal.

Don't know if Cobalt sells them for the same price. I'm sure Andie can make it worth your while.
 
laptimes? :cool:

Right now, only one I can recall is in my 3.0L NSX A032Rs on 91-93 OE wheels and Carbotech P+s. at Thunderhill w/o bypass. 2:15:xx. I think I can get lower than that now even with my stock brakes.

anyway, get Hotap Timer and post laptimes guys!
 
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If laptimes are not an indication on how much somone is pushing their cars then what would be a better indication then?

For example if I drive my car at 5/10ths or 6/10ths at a track like Laguna Seca for a 30 minute session, then I don't have any problems with my braking system.

In contrast if I push my car at 7/10ths or at 8/10ths or so for a 30 minute session, then I will always fade, guaranteed.

Won't both of these conditions be indicated by average laptimes?

Note that I am asking for average laptimes instead of the fastest lap.

When I read comments by fellow members who I respect and trust their opinnions stating that the stock NSX braking system is sufficient and that they never ever fade, then I start to wonder how much of my fading is due to my "lack of skills".

I've read statements such as taking it easy for a couple of laps to let the brakes cool down, does this mean that the user experienced fade therefore they are letting the stock NSX brake system cool down?

Can such a system be classified as being sufficient? Doesn't that mean that the braking is underpowered compared to other portions of the car?

Anyways, if folks can't follow my line of reasoning then I give up.

For example I can average in the 2:05's-2:07's for an entire 30 minutes session at Laguna without fading.

Once I push into the 1:54's - 1:57's, the brakes will fade in a single 30 minute session, guaranteed. I can't push the car harder because it will make the fading worse, and the level of confidence is not there as far as braking goes.

BTW: I run with SO3's, I think that they have at least 3-4 seconds left in them before I switch to R compounds once I get my fading problems out of the way.. Something that I will be keeping track of once I get used to the Stoptech BBK.
 
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Bob (1BADNSX) made the excellent point that differences in brake setups are way down on the list of things that affect lap times. And I agree.

One thing that may not be apparent from his post (even though he mentions "improve the driver") is that the difference from one driver to another will almost certainly be far, far greater than the difference from one car setup to another. So finding out lap times from a bunch of different drivers is meaningless in any effort to evaluate different car setups.
 
The DAL Motorsports NSX runs the stock brakes per the rules for the Grand-Am Cup series and we have had little to no fading problems. The biggest problem we have is premature ABS activation and thats more a programming problem than anything else, and it would be encountered with almost any street ABS set-up.

We run stock 91 brakes with Cobalt pads and 3 inch ducts on each side. Brake Fluid is ATE Super Blue. Engine is has completely stock from the throttle body to the end of the exhaust manifold.

For reference we've run low 1:30's in the car at Texas Motor Speedway. Mid 1:50's at Texas World Speedway the only time we've been down there. We were in the 2:10's at VIR and ran 2:11's at Daytona with handling problems that we never really got sorted out. All this and we are still sorting the suspension set-up on the car.
 
kenjiMR said:
laptimes? :cool:

Right now, only one I can recall is in my 3.0L NSX A032Rs on 91-93 OE wheels and Carbotech P+s. at Thunderhill w/o bypass. 2:15:xx. I think I can get lower than that now even with my stock brakes. My car should be able to get below that now even with the OE brakes.

anyway, get Hotap Timer and post laptimes guys!

Thunderhill counterclockwise without bypass.

Track temperature 65 degrees F.
Car weight 3040 full tank, laptimes set with 1/3 tank of gas.
Driver 185lbs.
Stock 1997 gearing, 275hp at the rear wheels. 215/40 17, 275/35 18 Bridgestone SO-3's.

Average laptimes 2:16 - 2:17's for a 30 minute session, and experiencing some brake fade not bad as Laguna.

Fastest lap so far: 2:14:83

I think that there is about 3 to 4 seconds left in them, even at Thill since I don't shift to 4th between turns 6 and 9 because if I do I will make my fading problem worse by having to brake really hard going into turn 9 and then 10, 11, 14, 1 and 2 becomes a mess.

Very cautious about turn 1 because of lack of confidence on brakes after coming out of 14 and lack of confidence going into turn 2 because of the lack of confidence after braking for turn 1.

Speed diferentials:

Turn 1 115-125mph down to 80-85 fast left turn. 4th gear

Turn 2 110mph down to 65 big left hand sweeper. Downshift to 3rd from 4th

Turn 3 95 mph down to 60 off camber right turn. carry in 3rd

Turn 4 no braking, just a slight lift to transfer weight start the climb left turn

Turn 5 90mph down to 30 mph the chute, left hander downshift to 2nd from 3rd

Turn 6 80mph down to 60 mph. 3rd

Turn 7 no braking

Turn 8 110mph down to about 90-95 mph 3rd gear getting ready for the uphill.

Turn 9 110mph down to 65 mph. stay in 3rd, can cary more speed if shifting up to 4th and downshifting to 3rd, but that would really heat up the brakes for the following turns.

Turn 10 115mph down to 65 left hander. 4th down to 3rd

Turn 11 90mph down to 45 mph left hander. 3rd down to 2nd

Turn 12, no braking powering through chicanes

Turn 13 exit from chicane powering through.

Turn 14 110-115mph down to 40 mph right hander. 4th down to 3rd down to 2nd.

Turn 15 no braking powering through to the main straight.

And then we start again..

BTW: I know that with R compunds I would have to brake a bit less.
 
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Brian Bailey said:
The DAL Motorsports NSX runs the stock brakes per the rules for the Grand-Am Cup series and we have had little to no fading problems. The biggest problem we have is premature ABS activation and thats more a programming problem than anything else, and it would be encountered with almost any street ABS set-up.

We run stock 91 brakes with Cobalt pads and 3 inch ducts on each side. Brake Fluid is ATE Super Blue. Engine is has completely stock from the throttle body to the end of the exhaust manifold.

For reference we've run low 1:30's in the car at Texas Motor Speedway. Mid 1:50's at Texas World Speedway the only time we've been down there. We were in the 2:10's at VIR and ran 2:11's at Daytona with handling problems that we never really got sorted out. All this and we are still sorting the suspension set-up on the car.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for sharing the information, really interesting to read.

Are you allowed to switch rotors to some other rotors with better cooling. (I'm not that familiar about the Grand AM series.. sorry.)

I read an earlier post that stated that other NSXs were doing 2:20's at VIR and asked other members about their own laptimes but never read the replies.

BTW: Does your car meet the 2730 lbs weight limit as well?

Thanks,

Ken
 
nsxtasy said:
I also don't understand the advice about the ES tires. They're a great budget tire, to be sure, but what does that have to do with advice about track use? :confused:

P.S. Are you talking about only a front big brake kit, or four wheels? I want to know where I can get a four-wheel kit at a two-wheel price. :D

Well as a newbie, R-compounds are NOT reccomended, and you yourself know that the Yok's are a great street tire.

The $1500 is just for the fronts. You are right, the NSX is a rare street car that can actually benefit from rear upgrades, due to a light front, and mid engine layout. My Integra went through about 25 sets of fronts, before my stock rears needed replacement.

A 4 wheel kit bargain is with Wilwood. http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26932

I had Wilwoods on my Teg, and like these prices!!!! 4 wheels, and 6 piston fronts!!!

:eek:
 
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Steven Spanbauer said:
My used SSRs were more like $1400 now that YOU brought it up.

Sorry, my bad I thought it was $1200 that you paid. $1400 is still a reasonable example to show it is possible for someone looking to find a bargain on track wheels after a BBK install. It is still possible to do this for $3000 total, not $6000 or more like some have thought.
 


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