Guess who got their azz WHIPPED???!?!?!?!?!!?
I wont spoil the ending for the west coast Primers! :biggrin:
It was a good fight!
Nate in DC
I wont spoil the ending for the west coast Primers! :biggrin:
It was a good fight!
Nate in DC
Tito Ortiz vs Ken Shamrock
- Thread starter nbovelle
- Start date
I won't spill the beans either.
I was disappointed though.
I was disappointed though.
I know this time it was free but even still, I'm not going to watch this one. What's next? Hughes vs. Gracie II???
I didn't see the first two events so I was kinda looking forward to it. Man did Shamrock look old. Especially after he got peeled up off the mat.
clr1024 said:
I understand what you are saying, but this was not a good matchup. Ortiz already beat Ken badly... twice.... so what's the point of the third one really. If Ken wanted to keep fighting should we keep letting them fight?
Any decent fighter has a lot of pride and wants to fight. Thats why they are fighters. But its up to a good matchmaker to match these fights.
Zuffa is banking on a lot of people's ignorance about MMA and setting up bad matches, and this is how fighters get hurt. I am sorry I have a lot of respect for Ken Shamrock and Royce Gracie... they are the reason I started MMA myself... but their time has come and gone. They do not belong in the ring with top fighters like Ortiz and Hughes who are much younger, faster and stronger than them.
It may be entertaining, but its dangerous for the fighters. Royce is a proud man and a pioneer and he is not going to tap. So should he just get killed in that cage? It was sad for me to see Hughes take his back and punish the old master like that. After he had already popped his elbow.
My point is that these bad matchups can result in serious injury but they are done for money and that's not right.
TURBO2GO said:
Kens is a skilled fighter...past his prime but the ref is there to break things up the reason that this went to a third fight was because the second was called too early. This laid doubts in everyones head if Tito truley was the better fighter as all the hypotheticals come out, what if Ken reversed escaped etc. With this third fight it has been laid to rest that without a doubt Tito is the better fighter. As for fighters getting hurt thats the nature of the sport, all of the match ups you are talking about involved highly skilled fighters with lots of experience. It would be different if they were matching highly skilled with highly inexperieced. The inexperienced may not recognize when they are in serious danger/chance of being hurt. I do agree that Zuffa has turned into a money machine, seems like there are payper view fights every month now.
I honestly don't think the second fight was stopped too early. Ken was in big trouble and had nowhere to go. Everyone blames the ref but he did his job IMO.
Shamrock/Ortiz III was nothing but an event to milk the cow.
I understand the way this goes... part of the matchmaker's job is not just to have a good match but something that people want to see. And most people, are somewhat clueless about the sport. They know "the world's most dangerous man" from wrestling... This leads to Shamrock/Ortiz III. In the meantime plenty of REAL good matchups get ignored because the names are not recognizable to people here.
Shamrock/Ortiz III was nothing but an event to milk the cow.
I understand the way this goes... part of the matchmaker's job is not just to have a good match but something that people want to see. And most people, are somewhat clueless about the sport. They know "the world's most dangerous man" from wrestling... This leads to Shamrock/Ortiz III. In the meantime plenty of REAL good matchups get ignored because the names are not recognizable to people here.
Are there any members of Prime who are either seasoned martial artists or who have significant ring experiance? I was just wondering... I have only been posting for a couple of months and don't really know all the players here. I unfortuanately did not have time to make NSXPO in Orlando but have enjoyed the insight and experiance shared here. Prime is great stuff. I have learned a wealth from you guys! Thanks! :smile:
Bodhi said:
Poohbear is really Tank Abbott.
Never mind, it was just a question...
I'm training in amateur muay thai and less than amateur brazilian jiu-jitsu
And yes, that fight was lame. I'm definately way beyond the drama Zuffa is trying to create. Just show me good displays of MMA and leave the drama crap to the WWE
And yes, that fight was lame. I'm definately way beyond the drama Zuffa is trying to create. Just show me good displays of MMA and leave the drama crap to the WWE
No worries. I was just curious in the varied interests of prime members. Seems to be an eclectic group... I wrestled in high school and college, did akido for 10 years and have been in traditional TKD & Hapkido for the last five so I was curious on how others viewed televised fights. Seems that most of what I read on prime is well versed and very knowledgable. I have picked up some valuable tips and info in the last couple of months - all good stuff. Thanks! :smile:
Aikido is a beautiful art. I am really always impressed by its movements. TKD has some useful stuff but in self-defense on its own its really lacking. Good to know any of these, unfortunately the real stuff gets watered down and filtered out once the MA enters sport, competition, olympics, etc.
If you are well versed in BJJ and Muaythai which are the LEAST watered down martial arts still you are doing well. Wrestlers are also very tough if they learn a few good submissions and some defense against Jiujitsu and the like. Frankly I would be worried fighting anyone with cauliflower ears. :biggrin:
If you are well versed in BJJ and Muaythai which are the LEAST watered down martial arts still you are doing well. Wrestlers are also very tough if they learn a few good submissions and some defense against Jiujitsu and the like. Frankly I would be worried fighting anyone with cauliflower ears. :biggrin:
Question:
What would be the best discipline to pick up for real life applications? Say I get jumped and need to do some damage...
Some styles are very good for the ring and a controlled environment, others I'm sure are better for practical application.
Curious... thanks
What would be the best discipline to pick up for real life applications? Say I get jumped and need to do some damage...
Some styles are very good for the ring and a controlled environment, others I'm sure are better for practical application.
Curious... thanks
orbusrex said:
When I trained at Rickson's studio, we used to have a saying. One year of BJJ is more effective than a lifetime of any other martial art. You can take out others w/o hurting yourself (ie breaking a fist punching someone's head). Grappling is very effective IMO. But there are good self defense courses that teach the best of each discipline because not one is better than all.
Search youtube for "bas rutten defense"
So BJJ is the consensus?
One thing in my line of work... I usually am dealing with more than one person that wants to kick my ass, so going down to the ground may not be the best. (I prefer ground fighting by the way) I don't know though... I'd like to pick a few more brains!
Thanks Bradley and Splitz.
Rob
One thing in my line of work... I usually am dealing with more than one person that wants to kick my ass, so going down to the ground may not be the best. (I prefer ground fighting by the way) I don't know though... I'd like to pick a few more brains!
Thanks Bradley and Splitz.
Rob
Rob, here is the situation.
Almost no one knows how to fight on the ground. But lots of people are naturaly OK at standup fighting (experienced).
Brazilian Jiujitsu is an art to help a SMALLER guy overcome a LARGER guy. If you are really good at standup and say hit a guy that is a lot bigger 3x the amount he hits you, if he outweighs you by 50 pounds, one punch from him can put you in a world of hurt. BJJ neutralizes a size advantage to a certain extent as it uses a lot of leverage.
Almost all serious fights will see ground at some point, and that's when you can have a huge advantage.
I forget who it was that said this, perhaps one of the Gracies, "the ground is an ocean and I am a shark. You don't even know how to swim".
You need to know how to swim. It is essential.
However, you have a good point in not wanting to go to the ground against several people. For striking, the rawest most brutal and effective art is Muaythai. It covers the "middle" ground between long striking distance and grappling. It is the clinch that MT is excellent at, and relies heavily on knees and elbows, your strongest body parts. Don't forget if brawling, you can break knuckles real quick with a punch and be diabled. An elbow can do 10x more damage and be fine.
BJJ FINISHES fights. If you choke someone out or break their shoulder or elbow joint with a good submission, they are DONE. No one sleeping after being choked out is going to hit you.
So I would say BJJ if you had to pick only one art, is the one. But you really need to combine that with Muaythai and you are good to go.
There is a reason why almost every MMA guy trains in both of these arts.
Once you know these and have a good base, you can incorporate other things like groin strikes, eye gouging, strikes to sensitive parts of the thorax, crushing of the windpipe, etc. If you have a chance read "The Tao of Jeet Kun Do", a collection of writings for fighting by Bruce Lee.
Many new "arts" and self defense courses have sprung up and claim superiority when they have no basics. They claim real fighting is different than the UFC type fights... and this is true... but they claim that with a few BS moves you become an expert as they are "the most devestating"... try a groin strike or eye gouge against a seasoned MMA fighter and he will kill you. So don't fall for that BS... you must know how to ground fight, and standup fight, at distance, in a clinch, and on the ground. Then add in the nasty stuff and I can't even begin to stress cardio conditioning.
For your situation, I think Judo maybe helpful as well, but Judo is watered down with a lot of time limits. It is excellent at throwing an oponent and shares some basic locks and subs with jiujitsu. If someone literally "jumps" you, a good Judo throw can have him laying on the ground real quick. I am suggesting Judo as a supplement, it is not a substitute for good Brazilian Jiujitsu.
Almost no one knows how to fight on the ground. But lots of people are naturaly OK at standup fighting (experienced).
Brazilian Jiujitsu is an art to help a SMALLER guy overcome a LARGER guy. If you are really good at standup and say hit a guy that is a lot bigger 3x the amount he hits you, if he outweighs you by 50 pounds, one punch from him can put you in a world of hurt. BJJ neutralizes a size advantage to a certain extent as it uses a lot of leverage.
Almost all serious fights will see ground at some point, and that's when you can have a huge advantage.
I forget who it was that said this, perhaps one of the Gracies, "the ground is an ocean and I am a shark. You don't even know how to swim".
You need to know how to swim. It is essential.
However, you have a good point in not wanting to go to the ground against several people. For striking, the rawest most brutal and effective art is Muaythai. It covers the "middle" ground between long striking distance and grappling. It is the clinch that MT is excellent at, and relies heavily on knees and elbows, your strongest body parts. Don't forget if brawling, you can break knuckles real quick with a punch and be diabled. An elbow can do 10x more damage and be fine.
BJJ FINISHES fights. If you choke someone out or break their shoulder or elbow joint with a good submission, they are DONE. No one sleeping after being choked out is going to hit you.
So I would say BJJ if you had to pick only one art, is the one. But you really need to combine that with Muaythai and you are good to go.
There is a reason why almost every MMA guy trains in both of these arts.
Once you know these and have a good base, you can incorporate other things like groin strikes, eye gouging, strikes to sensitive parts of the thorax, crushing of the windpipe, etc. If you have a chance read "The Tao of Jeet Kun Do", a collection of writings for fighting by Bruce Lee.
Many new "arts" and self defense courses have sprung up and claim superiority when they have no basics. They claim real fighting is different than the UFC type fights... and this is true... but they claim that with a few BS moves you become an expert as they are "the most devestating"... try a groin strike or eye gouge against a seasoned MMA fighter and he will kill you. So don't fall for that BS... you must know how to ground fight, and standup fight, at distance, in a clinch, and on the ground. Then add in the nasty stuff and I can't even begin to stress cardio conditioning.
For your situation, I think Judo maybe helpful as well, but Judo is watered down with a lot of time limits. It is excellent at throwing an oponent and shares some basic locks and subs with jiujitsu. If someone literally "jumps" you, a good Judo throw can have him laying on the ground real quick. I am suggesting Judo as a supplement, it is not a substitute for good Brazilian Jiujitsu.
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I would tend to agree with the BJJ + MT is one of the best approaches. With this in mind, I also feel that it is usually the more experianced and seasoned person who will walk away less damaged on the street (not ring). Size does matter, but so does speed, luck, attitude and overall condition. If your sole intent is one of self defense and/or control then I would look for a MMA trainging center that focuses on your needs. Also, never discount a striker. A quick person can inflict a great deal of damage on multiple opponents in very short order. Lastly, once you start your training, don't jump from discipline to discipline. Stay with one style for at least five years before switching, learn the little things and practice, practice, practice!
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