TIres won't grip in Colorado weather

Joined
13 May 2001
Messages
163
Location
Lafayette, CO
Hey everyone - happy new year! Quick question - now that I'm in Colorado, I am noticing serious grip problems with my tires. I am guessing it's due to the 20-30 degree daily high temp. making the tires too hard (coming from Phoenix, I miss the grip
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Are there any particular brands of tires that will go on a stock 2000 rim that have better grip and don't get as hard in 20-30 degree weather?

Thanks!

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David Allen
'00 Silverstone NSX-T
 
Yes - any tire that's classified as a "winter tire", such as the Bridgestone Blizzak (various model designations), the Michelin Arctic Alpin, etc. Many owners have gotten the Pirelli P210 Ice tire in the stock NSX sizes.

The size of the wheels you will put them on will determine the availability of winter tires in appropriate sizes. (Most owners who drive their cars in cold winter weather buy a second set of wheels for this purpose, so they don't have to have their tires mounted and balanced twice a year.)

Check out the Tire Rack's website for information on various winter tires. Beware, though; they remove a tire size from their website when they run out of them, and they have run out of quite a few sizes of various models of winter tires this far into the winter. So you may need to check with other tire dealers as well.
 
You don't need to run higher pressures, but you do need to monitor your tire pressures closely and adjust as needed. Tire pressure drops by about 1 psi for every 10 degree drop in outside air temperature. So if you measured them when it was 60 degrees outside (as it was here for much of December), and it's 20 degrees now, you definitely need to adjust the pressure.

However, high-performance tires (like the OEM tires as well as tires like the Bridgestone S-03) are often called "summer tires" because their range of optimal operating temperatures does not cover the colder temperatures found during winter in most of the United States outside of the sunbelt. That's why winter tires are needed - because they're designed to operate in frigid temperatures. They're not just needed for snow and ice, but also when the roads are dry but cold.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 02 January 2002).]
 
ken, most people either driving on the track or other high performance driving will strive for a "hot" tire pressure that maximizes adhesion. Air, and track (or road) temperature effects the increase in tire pressure. Since david is in a colder environment he will want to increase his cold tire pressure to reach his desired hot pressure.
 
most people either driving on the track or other high performance driving will strive for a "hot" tire pressure that maximizes adhesion.

This is wrong. Even for track usage, tire pressure should be measured cold (tires cold at the normal ambient temperature), and the cold pressure should be used as a standard for later comparison. Pressure can be measured hot but only in order to add or reduce pressure, not as any other kind of reference point. The cold pressure, plus or minus any changes you've made, remains your reference point.

Since david is in a colder environment he will want to increase his cold tire pressure to reach his desired hot pressure.

I assumed he would be doing normal street driving in the wintertime in Colorado, and that he is not doing any track driving. Tire temperatures for street driving don't need to be (and shouldn't be) taken hot - even for the track (see above), but especially for the street. David should NOT be increasing his cold tire pressure, and should use his desired cold tire pressure based on the ambient temperature for most of his driving.

Those of us who live in cold winter climates are probably a bit more familiar with how to maintain our cars in that environment.

More at http://www.nsxprime.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002195.html
 
that is just not logical and goes against what I have learned in car and kart racing.

by your logic a driver wants to set up their cold tire pressure the same whether they are racing (driving) in 50 vs. 100 degree weather - with the obvious difference in track temperature? that just doesnt make sense to me. all other things being = , said driver will either be running too high or too low pressure after a few laps.

I agree that when I measure my tire pressure in my NSX I measure cold, typically in the morning in my garage before I leave. If I am leaving for daily driving I dont worry about hot temperature. However, if at the track I will absolutely monitor hot temp to make sure I am around a temp I feel gives me the best traction.

Maybe I am missing something here. As I said in the initial message to David, this probably wont make a huge difference, but it might help a bit.

[This message has been edited by justin hall (edited 03 January 2002).]
 
that is just not logical and goes against what I have learned in car and kart racing.

Well, it's what I have learned in fifteen years of car racing and 100+ track events.

by your logic a driver wants to set up their cold tire pressure the same whether they are racing (driving) in 50 vs. 100 degree weather

That's correct. For example, let's say you are going to the track on a 50-degree day. You set your pressures at 50 degrees - let's say you like the recommended 33F and 40R. When you get to the track, and your car sits for a while, that will be the tire pressure. Go out and do a few laps on the 50-degree pavement, and the tires will heat up, and the pressure will increase. You don't know how much that increase will be. It could go up 3 psi or 5 psi. If you do 10 laps instead of five, it could go up 5 psi or 7. If you drive the car harder, it could go up 8 psi instead of 5. If the track runs clockwise, like most tracks in North America, it could go up 4 psi in the right tires and 6 psi in the left tires. IT DOESN'T MATTER, because - no matter how much the pressure increases - you still have cold pressure of 33F/40R in your tires, and that is your reference point. You aren't shooting for the tires to be X psi when hot, because the amount of the pressure increase from cold to hot can vary, based on so many factors - how hard you drive, how many laps you do, which track it is, etc - but you still have 33F/40R cold pressure in your tires, because that's what they will cool down to.

If you find that you don't like the car's handling, and you would prefer a smaller difference, front to rear, you might let 2 psi out of the rear tires. You measure them first, and it doesn't matter how much you've heated them up or whether they're 42 hot or 47 hot; whatever the measurement is, you let 2 psi out, and they're now 33F/38R when they cool down. If you like the way they handle at that point, then the next time you go to the track, you make sure they're 33F/38R when you measure them cold (at the same outside temperature as you'll be driving them in).

The Tire Rack website has an excellent discussion about this at http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/general/pressure.htm In particular, they recommend:

"It’s important to remember that your vehicle's recommended tire pressure is its 'cold' tire inflation pressure. It should be checked in the morning before you drive more than a few miles, or rising ambient temperatures or sun’s radiant heat affects it."

Getting back to David's situation - if he normally inflates his tires to (let's say) 33F/40R in the summertime, then that's a good place to start for the wintertime as well. But that means 33F/40R when measured cold at the same temperatures he'll be driving in. The Tire Rack recommends that if he keeps his car in a heated garage, that he adjusts pressures to compensate. For example, if he's driving in 30-degree winter weather, then he'll want the tires to be 33F/40R at 30 degrees. If he measures the tires cold in his heated garage where it's 70 degrees, as noted on the Tire Rack website, he would want to set them to 37F/44R cold, because they will lose 4 psi when he goes outside where it's colder.

And, of course, getting back to David's original question - yes, winter tires are designed to grip in colder temperatures, where high-performance summer tires don't.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 03 January 2002).]
 
Originally posted by justin hall:
Maybe I am missing something here.

Justin, if you are asking to David to check his tire pressures because they could have come down a few psi because of the weather change, then you are correct by saying “try running a little more tire pressure…” but only if his tire pressures are below the recommended level (or his typical summertime pressures) measured at outside temp. The thing to remember is that cold tire PRESSURE should be static. We may need to add or subtract AIR to keep these pressure settings constant when the outside temperature changes, but we never aim to change the cold tire PRESSURE. Otherwise you are saying that in the cold, a tire with more pressure grips more than a tire with less pressure, which may or may not be the case depending on about 100 factors.

I think we all agree that fiddling around with tire pressure only changes grip characteristics slightly and that can even change from driving environment to environment. It’s my opinion that no amount of messing around with tire pressures will make a high-performance tire grip in the cold. There are some really good high-speed rated winter tires out there made by Pirelli, Dunlop and others that work wonders in the cold and snow. These tires have just become available in the last 2-3 years and I’d highly recommend talking to a TireRack rep about winter tire options.

Have a grippy day!

DanO

[This message has been edited by DanO (edited 03 January 2002).]
 
There are some really good high-speed rated winter tires out there made by Pirelli, Dunlop and others that work wonders in the cold and snow. These tires have just become available in the last 2-3 years and I’d highly recommend talking to a TireRack rep about winter tire options.

Good recommendation, Dan. Funny, though, that you don't mention the two common brands whose winter tire technology have advanced the most: Bridgestone (Blizzak) and Michelin. Another brand that is not as well-known in the States but is very highly regarded by insiders is Nokian and their various models of Hakkapeliitta winter tires.

As with any other tires, a number of models of winter tires are available, with different characteristics. Some cost more than others. Some last longer than others. Some are designed for the optimal performance on ice, others on snow, while sacrificing road feel on a relatively warm (30 degree) day. Some are designed for a better ride quality in all temperatures, while sacrificing a little bit of snow grip. Some (e.g. the Blizzak MZ-02) have a spongy, porous layer for the outer 55 percent of the tread (to soak up water that forms when the tire slides on ice), but when that part is worn, the tire doesn't grip as well on ice.

Some manufacturers offer several models of winter tire. For example, Michelin's Pilot Alpin is designed for decent high-speed cruising on dry roads in moderate and cold temperatures, with some snow and ice grip, while their Arctic Alpin is designed for much better snow and ice grip with somewhat less road feel in moderate temperatures.

The Tire Rack has a lot of excellent information about the various winter tires that are available. They have performed numerous comparison tests of different winter tires so you can see what each one is good at. Lots of good info on their website.
 
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