the use of hondabond

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acuratech27

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I hear stories of people using hondabond on cam plugs and oilpan gaskets and still having leaks after they are replaced. There is nothing wrong with using hondabond as long as you use it correctly and have a clean surface for it to seal to. i personally use it almost on a dailly basis and have had no problems what so ever. when i first started working on cars in general i learned very quickly how to do it and that it definentally seals a lot better than just the seal from the pan gasket or cam plugs. clearly on the honda service manual it says to use liquid gasket around the cam plugs. tomorrow i will post a pic of the page. Also on the oilpan gasket you need to put a dab of honda bond right where the oilpump mates with the block and where the rear main seal plate mates with the block.

The correct way to clean a surface to get ready for hondabond would be that you need to remove all old hondabond with a wire brush. Then take a clean rag and spray it with brake clean and wipe the surface down very good. There can be no old sealant on the surface. Next you will run a bead of sealer around the cam plug in the middle of the sealing surface. Last make sure you install the cam cam asap and let it dry for atleast 20 minutes before there is any contact with oil.
 
Wasn't it Larry who said that using HondaBond on the oil pan gasket only results in early leaks in the future?
 
Yes it was me. I was taught that early on by Mark Basch. Now since I was taught this long ago I just go that route. I can say that any engine I have seen that has HB on either the pan or cam plugs leaks!!

With the above in mind, it suggests that the surfaces were not prepped properly prior to install. Certainly possible. I do prep the surfaces as suggested, but always assemble dry. I have not had any issues so far, so I stick with it;).

The other comment I will make is every NSX engine I have disassembled from the factory, does not have HB on the cam plugs, and only has HB on the seams of the oil pump assembly where it meets the block for the oil pan.

My confirmation was if the factory does not do it, why would I??

My $.02

Regards,
LarryB
 
acuratech27 said:
The service manual says to use liquid gasket on the cam plugs
Click to expand...

Please LMK what page and year NSX manual states this. I only have the 1991 manual handy at the moment and is does not reference the cam plugs accept to show them. But on page 6-49(bottom right), in reference to the Cam Seals, it specifically states install the seals dry. Now I know that is not the cam plugs, but it is the exact same situation, at the other end:).

Regards,
LarryB
 
I am trying to post a picture of the actual page but it won't let me save the file I will scan it and post it. As far as there being hondabond on the campus from the factory I have seen them with and without it on many different cars
 
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Well either way it's good to know how the surface is supposed to be prepped when it is necessary to use it. I'm going to try my luck putting in the oil pan gasket and cam seals dry. I've always done that on other Hondas with good result.
 
I think Larry has done quite a lot of TB and Camplugs in the last 10 years and should have a better evidence than the service manual, no?
 
goldNSX said:
I think Larry has done quite a lot of TB and Camplugs in the last 10 years and should have a better evidence than the service manual, no?
Click to expand...

Yes this is true, but it also sounds like acuratech27 has equal or more experience as well. Funny how we do things a little differently, but we both "go by the book";) :D:D

Regards,
LarryB
 
pretty sure that the way things are taught and practiced now vs. 20 year old manuals have changed more than a little.

Id vote honda bond all the way if thats the way the guys are trained now.
 
I'd me be more than happy with Larrys cerebral NSX manual lol. Can we plug him somewhere and download:biggrin:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/add_ocr/brain_mind/memoryrev1.shtml

The cerebral cortex is the part of the brain responsible for intelligence, language, memory and consciousness.

add_ocr_brain.gif
Click to expand...
 
The plugs have been installed without Hondabond at the factory, ok, 20 years ago. It takes more than 10 years for them to leak only minimally and they can go 5 years or so further. We've plenty of data of all 91's out there. I've even seen an engine with 100k miles and no leaks at all but he's hypermiling his engine so it doesn't get really hot. I don't think Hondabond can take more like 20 years or so because there's another problem existing: the plugs shrink over time or at least deform due to the heat they're exposed to (see picture old (15 years) versus new). The new one was higher than the old one. When installed it was a little bit too 'wide'. I'm pretty sure Hondabond will break under these circumsstances and let it leak also. I feel more comfortable not using it. I feel comfortable changing them every 15 years or every second TB change.

Just my 0.02.
 

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goldNSX said:
The plugs have been installed without Hondabond at the factory, ok, 20 years ago. It takes more than 10 years for them to leak only minimally and they can go 5 years or so further. We've plenty of data of all 91's out there. I've even seen an engine with 100k miles and no leaks at all but he's hypermiling his engine so it doesn't get really hot. I don't think Hondabond can take more like 20 years or so because there's another problem existing: the plugs shrink over time or at least deform due to the heat they're exposed to (see picture old (15 years) versus new). The new one was higher than the old one. When installed it was a little bit too 'wide'. I'm pretty sure Hondabond will break under these circumsstances and let it leak also. I feel more comfortable not using it. I feel comfortable changing them every 15 years or every second TB change.

Just my 0.02.
Click to expand...

so i guess honda engineers do not know what they are talking about then. in 95 and up manuals it clearly states to use liquid gasket on cam plugs. i work for acura and do alot of heavy line work and i have seen cars come from the factory with honda bond on them and as far as the oil pan gasket i am not talking about completely covering the gasket in hondabond just where the oil pump and rear main plate meet with the block because of uneven surface. not sure if you know this but honda bond is a silicone and silicone stretches so if the metal in the plug shrinks some how then the hondashould stretch enough to seal still. the cam plug is a metal plug with rubber around it. not saying that putting them in dry is bad because as larry said it is no where in the manual from 91-94 but in 95 and up it is definentaly there on page 6-45. as far as the picture are those factory plugs or have they been replaced before?
 
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The real ironic thing is after 100+ NSX engines I have seen, only 3-4 actually needed cam plugs!!!!!!!!!
 
One question before I discuss it any further. What do you consider 'leaking'? I've not seen a cam plug that was leaking so badly that you had oildroops on the garage floor. I saw them sweating which is maybe one oildrop per year on the garage floor. And of course, the problem of oil leaking has been analysed first by eliminating the VTEC-gasket-leaking which can leak pretty badly.

See pic: I call this sweating. This is about years of driving.
 

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I agree the higher temp will effect this much more then in the East. Typically I see when they are leaking they have hardened. Heat would be a major factor for that.

In the case of the "sweating" that actually looks like the VC Gasket is old and leaking.

If I were to rank frequency of leaking, my experience has been:

1. VC Gasket = Splash oil under valve cover
2. Spool Valve = Full engine oil pressure
3. Cam Plug = Splash oil from the valve train, with maybe some pressure from the end cam journal

Regards,
LarryB
 
In our experience, placing Hondabond at the corners of the seals & plugs helps long term durability, especially for performance engines. This helps with the casting variances in the covers and shrinking of the seals over time. Jeff, our lead technician and engine assembler has employed this technique for 10+ years including one of our first engines from many years ago that was inspected recently without leaks.

You need to be judicious with the amount applied however so that excess does not bleb into the engine and clog ports & screens.

-- Chris
 
Wow. Well over 30 years of total experience on this thread, each input bringing a wealth of information. Interestingly, my '00 with close to 59K mi. is currently being worked on for gasket leaks (oil pan/valve covers/cam plugs) plus belts/TB and H20 pump. Driven at 2K miles a year since I bought it 6 years ago, practically a garage queen. Disappointed at the leaks..our other vehicles, 11 and 12 y/o (Tacoma/Lexus RX300) with over 2x the mileage are still leak free.
This is my first time to deal with cam plug leaks; I don't understand how Honda chose to use $7 plugs and not invested in something more solid that is not prone to shrinkage and distortion, like SOS billet plugs. I'm interested to know how long these have held against leakage over time and if this could be a panacea for this pesky problem regarding cam plugs. Chris, do you have any data regarding SOS plugs in terms of durability and how long before these actually leak after installment?
I am also surprised about Honda's change of stance regarding the use of HB pre and post '95. Does this mean every vehicle coming out of production line after '95 should have HB on oil pan gaskets and cam plugs? Shouldn't this change in repair standard also have been reflected in the production line as well?
As a footnote, my TB is 11 y/o. I do not have any record (I have them all) of these being ever changed. I'll take pics if any of you are interested to see how it looks like; I drive the X once a week and still take it to red line every time it sees daylight. Thank you all for sharing your wealth of experience. It is a privilege to be able to learn from your technical expertise because of a common passion.
Best regards.

Wil
 

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