The Perfect Track Car????

[Red]

From the Canadian section - I'm looking for opinions!

Any ideas of what type of car you are looking for? I have been pondering the same idea. I bought the NSX and never even though about tracking it but now that I have put in a few days, I can see it will become a habit and it seems if you push it, its only a matter of time till something gets bent up. It would of course break my heart ( and my bank account) if something like that happened to my NSX.
My thinking is I could buy a Turbo MR2( love that mid engine design) for about the same price as a nice set of brakes for the NSX

Yes, I was thinking the same thing, tracking my baby was fun, but watching the guy who put his Prelude into the wall talk to the guy with the Armco Modified Lotus Elese made me start thinking. I think a smack up in my baby would ruin racing for me for a while.

I also have to admit that I'm a novice. With Peter Hanson (my instructor)'s help I have progressed to feeling "fast" and there was no question I was putting great times in for my run group level (Rui can be my witness! :wink BUT I fully have to admit that the car made me a better driver than I really am. When I powered on INTO the apex it was becasue the car could, not because I should.

To answer the question I have looked into a MR2- 2nd gen and done some reading over last night and today.

The answer is the fanatics love the car, but you can find people who think Fieros are cool and can explain how sh1t doesn't smell bad too.

My conclusion, the pre 93 cars (read not really available as 93+s in Canada, and rare in the US) are tail happy, where they snap around super quick. There was I guy I found who's an NSX owner who used to own an 80's MR2 who wrote an interesting constrast and compare piece (google it up!). I'm gonna pass on Mister Mister and skip over to BMW M3 or Porsche 944s or Turbo.

Now, (am I taking this thread for a loop or what?), I checked out the BMRs and found them pricey, but an interesting option to street. Ray, head instructor at the BMW school assures me there're amazing cars and cheap to maintain as a track car goes.

Now, two of my buddies have 944TS's that they track. They love them, say they're the best, cheap, etc.

(I'm writing this on a Mac, I don't like windoze much, now you may argue - great taste? Less filling?)

My conclusion, a track ready 1988 944s (Turbo is more, and maybe more car than I need) is about $7-8,000 - a BMer add 4G's.

Now my logic: I'm assuming I going to every possible track day, plus renting track time on my own (PM me if you are interested in the private weekday track session I am planning for this month!) SO I'm pretty certain I will see armco or tires up close sometime soon - so if I can buy a car for 30% less, I'm MUCh closer to another car - just in case AND if I "outgrow" this one I'll take a MUCH smaller loss selling it (who's ready to buy it for $4Gs next year?:biggrin

Also, IF you want to run Porsche club events you need a Porsche, if you want any other club you can run any car, so I have more options this way.

I think this is my decision, anyone want to talk me out of it? :biggrin: :

 

[dave22]

My conclusion, the pre 93 [MR2]s (read not really available as 93+s in Canada, and rare in the US) are tail happy, where they snap around super quick.

Interesting. My experience with the MKII MR2s is that they break away VERY smoothly. I've never pushed an NSX past its limit so I have no basis for comparison there but I CAN tell you the '91 non-trubo MR2 I've had the pleasure or wringing out breaks away much more smoothly than my S2000. It's night and day. I've driven others (both turbo and non) in a more tame manner and they all seem to have very good manners at the limit. I suggest you take one for a spin before you condemn it for being too snappy.

 

[The Kid]

I had a 944 turbo and it was fun but still shitty. I had a 1987 with 78k and I couldnt get past the "old car" feeling. Modern cars have so much of a better feel; in my opinion. Maybe a 92 MR2 turbo or ???? :wink:

 

[Red]

Interesting. My experience with the MKII MR2s is that they break away VERY smoothly. I've never pushed an NSX past its limit so I have no basis for comparison there but I CAN tell you the '91 non-trubo MR2 I've had the pleasure or wringing out breaks away much more smoothly than my S2000. It's night and day. I've driven others (both turbo and non) in a more tame manner and they all seem to have very good manners at the limit. I suggest you take one for a spin before you condemn it for being too snappy.

Note to self: Don't critisize what you haven't driven.

Sorry, the tail happiness issues are from reading, not driving, but I understand that all mid-engine cars get snappy at the limit (you should have seen me in Turn 1 at WGI! :redface so the thought of Loose Tail, although exciting in Bars, doesn't go as well with novices at the track :biggrin:

I hear the S2000 is fast and loose, which is great in the hands of an expert, but tougher to learn how to become an expert on. I can say there was an S2000 guy in my run group and he was f-fast, I needed to start shifting gears or let him by.

Honestly, I'd rather Mister, and to BA's comments, I'd rather a "newer" car. I'm just hoping I'll get flamed into a decision... :biggrin:

 

[The Kid]

S2000 is a great idea; i love the look of an S2000 with the factory hardtop. Modern reliability and feel, inexpensive, can be financed, warrantied and looks great. Id also think a second generation Talon or Eclipse turbo is a great ride if an AWD is something your interested in.

 

[polar]

check out this post

 

[MCM]

I have owned a couple BMW 2002's.
I went all out on the last one. every trick in the book.
Full susp, frame work, 5 speed OD conversion from a 3 Series, one piece race seat, Momo steering wheel, About 150 solid hp- Intake, Weber 2bl, porting, headers, anza exhaust, Tii mech advance dist etc. If you really want to learn to drive, I say check out an early 70-73 BMW 2002.
With a bit of susp work, you can stay with, or loose some pretty high end cars. Their amazing cars.
(A bit of a cult car like the NSX)
Maybe I should build one more?
Also, they can be found priced right!
Anyone agree? or is it just me? :biggrin:

 

[OLDE GUY]

Having had a '88 944 Turbo S with $10,000 of modifications for track use including Bilstein coilover suspension, rollbar, sports seats, 5 point harness, etc., etc., I think that the best way to go if you want track time/seat time is to first decide whether you want to go the BMW or Porsche club route. Then second decide on an inexpensive track car that you can learn a lot from and won't cost you a bundle. If you are serious, you can become an instructor in 2 years then the DE weekends are much less expensive: Porsche is 1/2 price and BMW is sometimes free to instructors. I think that in my area, BMW has the best schools and are more serious about their instructors' training and qualifications. Porsche clubs seem to be more informal.

So if you decide Porsche, then a track modified 944 S (not turbo) is a great car with the right suspension - then throw out a lot of weight and get sticky tires. It's momentum driving but it teaches you a lot. For BMW you have a lot of options from track modified 2002 (again momentum driving) to early M3s. Joining one of these clubs, buying one of these cars and becoming an instructor is the most bang for the buck!

 

[Peter Mills]

Stuart:
The Prelude and the Elise were both driver error. The Prelude dropped two right wheels off the track surface upon exiting turn six and tried to muscle his car back onto the track surface, causing the Prelude to rocket across the track into the left side armco. He didn't know the proper procedure for recovery.
The Elise was a case of too fast too soon which happens quite often with Elise owners. Just because you purchase a car marketed towards track driving doesn't mean the car can drive itself. The laws of physics still apply.
He came into turn six carrying too much speed, realized he was over his head, instead of riding it through maintaining throttle, he lifted off the gas, causing the rear to come around leading to his impact with the armco. That same Elise spun in turn nine on Saturday, so you'd think a light inside someone's head would go on wouldn't you?
Now, I'm not looking to drum up instructing clients for next year and I'm not being holler than thou, but their instructors must take some of the responsibility for what happened. By his own admission the Elise driver said that if he had put "both feet in" he might have saved the car. His instructor should have reviewed and practiced "both feet in" even before they left the paddock on the very first session. Before my students leave the hot pits I have them compress the clutch and brake 10 tens while I repeat saying "both feet in." You only have milli-seconds to save a car and if I tell a student "both feet in" I damn well want them to act instantly and not waste valuable time saying "what?"
The problem with many driving schools is that they don't place instructors with driving knowledge of mid-engine cars with students that have mid-engine cars. Every student has the right to request an instructor with driving knowledge and experience with the car that "client or customer" is bringing to the track.
I'm now stepping down off my soap box.

 

[BioBanker]

Looking forward to you coming up to Mosport next summer Peter.

I had one of those moments youve described where you enter too hot. Mine was in 4 at Mosport. Came in too hot and, unfortunately, off line! I realized what was about to happen, but stayed on it, clenched my teeth, and started to pray. The NSX made me proud that corner, not by being fast, but by pulling through a tough situation without complaining.

Ill never do that again!

Ill second the S2000 idea Stuart. I had one of the those cars for almost 3 years and its a phenominal car. Put a much cheaper than our car CTSC in it and remove a bunch of weight and youll probably be lapping faster than you would in your NSX with similar tires. You can pick them up REALLY cheap right now in Toronto ($23k for a 00) and you will absolutly love driving it in the winter. Its totally hillarious with good rubber; youll be the fastest guy on the road. Plus, youll learn a ton about the cars balance by driving on the slippery stuff. I cannot say enough good things about S2000s. It really is a fantastic car and the 9k redline is unreal. Id get one of those for a track car. Cheap cheap cheap and abundant aftermarket.

 

[Red]

Now, I'm not looking to drum up instructing clients for next year and I'm not being holler than thou, but their instructors must take some of the responsibility for what happened. By his own admission the Elise driver said that if he had put "both feet in" he might have saved the car. His instructor should have reviewed and practiced "both feet in" even before they left the paddock on the very first session. Before my students leave the hot pits I have them compress the clutch and brake 10 tens while I repeat saying "both feet in." You only have milli-seconds to save a car and if I tell a student "both feet in" I damn well want them to act instantly and not waste valuable time saying "what?"
The problem with many driving schools is that they don't place instructors with driving knowledge of mid-engine cars with students that have mid-engine cars. Every student has the right to request an instructor with driving knowledge and experience with the car that "client or customer" is bringing to the track.
I'm now stepping down off my soap box.

Peter, after spending some time with you over the weekend I respect you and your assesments at the highest level. I agree with you as well. The Prelude crashed the session after I told him how impressed I was that his car could keep up with mine (I feel a bit responsible since I contributed to making him feel like he was a great driver when acutally he was a young guy - I'll never be so enthusiastic in laying on praise again, I can see that the outcome can be pretty bad if you're talking to a novice)

The Lotus...Day 1: I was passing him like he was on his way to pick up a six pack and diapers. Day 2: the guy is following me tightly through turns, and I'm using the straights to keep him away. Then I let him pass, I'd prefer to be futher from danger, and take the back straight into turn 1 slow(90 vs. 130) so he gets away from from me. I caught up to him when the Armco stopped him a few turns later.

Perhaps years of off-shore sailing has taught me respect and just how stupid I am - but I did square off my tires in turn one on day one, and I didn't get the clutch down fast enough even though MY Peter and I discussed what to do as you do with your students. (Intersting, I went two wheels off in a "safe" place and balanced the car and brought it back on and it did help my confidence - a bit)

I fully agree with you that - those specific, and obviously some other - instructors were not up to the task of teaching, I wan't impressed with the Prelude's guy from the get go. I AM VERY GLAD I brought Peter Hanson with me - it helped to have the same guy who knew my limits and could see me progress - as well as having a guy who is a champion racer, so the driving tips were different (manipulating the wheel between turn in and apex instead of smooth like we were told in the driver's breifing, and using the throttle in little pumps to balance the car, which is a Peter Hanson speciality that I know Max Angelleli and Wayne Taylor do, but never really understood until Day 2.

Peter, I respected and thought it wise that you chose one student (even wiser a girl!:wink and stuck with her. I would recommend that to anyone, as well as recommending that they get their instructor situation sorted before they get to the track, know who and get referrals. The title of instructor doesn't mean you don't have bad habits, it doesn't mean you can teach, and it doesn't mean you are Senna, it is just a guy who's been on track for a couple of years.

A real instructor is a guy like Peter Mills who helps you learn and stay safe while understadning what is safe for you at your level.

Now cars (I'm a fast typer, I hope you're a fast reader!) :biggrin:

I expect to f-up inspite of everything - Some guys I really respect put their cars into walls - if I'm really lucky I won't and that will be nice.

I feel fortunate that I can afford to pay for the accident damage BEFORE it happens, thats why I'm looking for a (relatively inexpensive) track car.

I see it as track insurance, I'm paying the maximum damage cost up front - the total write off of the car. Then any pressure is off and I can learn at any track, any time - I'll also buy a Hans Device, my neck costs more than $1000 and what happens when the Lotus spins and my car becomes a Lotus Eater?

 

[johnnybul]

Peter,
Did the Elise driver have the same instructor for both days? At tracquest it appears the instructors are not assigned to a particular car/driver. I know @ bmw's GVC events they alway match me up (or try) with an NSX instructor (ie Bill Held) How can an instructor monitor progress....if you have a different student each run group
I was told that the Elise driver was a little nuts on both days and I was actually in the restroom (on the hoop) when I over-heard him discussing that it was only going to cost him $5,000 in repairs and he was not certain if he was going to even report the accident to his insurance. It was almost as if he was proud of it.....

Additionally, I was chatting with another novice driver that was on track with this guy and he stated "You could have predicted that, that was going to happen"

Cheers,
John B

 

[Red]

I was actually in the restroom (on the hoop) when I over-heard him discussing that it was only going to cost him $5,000 in repairs and he was not certain if he was going to even report the accident to his insurance. It was almost as if he was proud of it.....

Yeah, I figure it will cost him $5,000 to repair the FRONT of the car:wink: , he didn't figure in the damage to the back - which was way worse!

Its hard when arrogance come up against reality - for him it will happen twice, first on the track when reality looked like blue armco and second when he gets an estimate and reality looks like green Franklins.

 

[Peter Mills]

John:
It's unfortunate that some "Driving Schools" such as TracQuest can't see the big picture. One of the changes Mark Hicks will make next year is having dedicated instructors, one per student, so that ownership is established between student and teacher.
I can't think on any positives for having students jump from instructor to instructor within the same school. It just doesn't make any sense. My student Colleen was approached by the Lotus's instructor wanting to know if she would switch to him on Sunday. I quess he wanted to ride in the 350Z. Colleen remembered the spin in T9 on Saturday and decided that I was the lesser of two evils.


Stuart:
I respect your thoughts about getting a dedicated track car, but please keep in mind that not all drivers wreck their cars while learning high performance driving. I have over 152 track days which equate to 7,296 laps, here's the part where I hope I don't jinx myself...I have yet to put one mark on my NSX. Yes, I have spun a few times. Yes, I may be very lucky, but I feel luck is the by product of experience. I never let my ego write checks that my ability can't cash.

John and Stuart:
We'll have fun next year at Mosport.

Peter,
Did the Elise driver have the same instructor for both days? At tracquest it appears the instructors are not assigned to a particular car/driver. I know @ bmw's GVC events they alway match me up (or try) with an NSX instructor (ie Bill Held) How can an instructor monitor progress....if you have a different student each run group
I was told that the Elise driver was a little nuts on both days and I was actually in the restroom (on the hoop) when I over-heard him discussing that it was only going to cost him $5,000 in repairs and he was not certain if he was going to even report the accident to his insurance. It was almost as if he was proud of it.....

Additionally, I was chatting with another novice driver that was on track with this guy and he stated "You could have predicted that, that was going to happen"

Cheers,
John B

 

[johnnybul]

Check this one out on bay



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1999...4586738391QQcategoryZ6131QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[OLDE GUY]

....please keep in mind that not all drivers wreck their cars while learning high performance driving .

Peter - I respect your experience and comments a great deal but I disagree. I have a friend on this board who has damaged the rear of both his NSXs at DE events. He is a very knowledgeable and careful person but it only takes the slightest error at speed to have significant consequences.

The NSX is a very capable and fast car and a new driver can get in over his head quite easily. Personally on three occasions, I have had cars in front of me drop fluid on the track; the NSX lost all adhesion and off we spun. Fortunately, each time it occured I had safe run off. If it had occured at other points on the tracks, the NSX would have been into something hard.

It is true that accidents don't happen that often but I think that we are seeing them more often than we did 10 - 15 years ago - the cars today have so much more horespower and are so capable up to a limit. Each DE driver has to ask himself if he can afford the cost of significant repairs (don't count on your insurance company; they are on to DEs), the decreased value of his NSX on resale due to the accident and the emotional loss. I have seen the faces of drivers who have significantly damaged their nice cars and it's not pretty.

When you can get into a very good track ready 944S (non turbo) for $9,000, it's something to think about. I'm thinking about it :wink:

 

[fkong777]

If you can go FR configuration a Nissan 240SX would be a good track car.. Tons of Suspension and Engine support for it.

S14 have a bolt on Greddy turbo kit that will give it extra 70hp or so.

or you can go SR20DET conversion for a few grand.
AEM has a EMS for it not for Plug and play configuration.

yeah I know the drifting scene played out the car but there is just so much product for it.

My choice would be a late model S14 with coilovers, Greddy turbo kit and of course some 18" wheels

 

[Peter Mills]

The NSX is a very capable and fast car and a new driver can get in over his head quite easily. Personally on three occasions, I have had cars in front of me drop fluid on the track; the NSX lost all adhesion and off we spun. Fortunately, each time it occured I had safe run off. If it had occured at other points on the tracks, the NSX would have been into something hard.

Please see the part of my post where I state " Yes, I may be very lucky".
Better read into that "Yes, I am extremely lucky".

It is true that accidents don't happen that often but I think that we are seeing them more often than we did 10 - 15 years ago - the cars have so much more horespower and are so capable up to a limit.

Your statement sums up what concerns a majority of northeast HPDE instructors. High horsepower cars with electronic stability makes the current student/driver feel invincible. They are driving much faster earlier in their development cycle than in past years and they have absolutely no feel for the car what so ever. Unfortunately they don't know their limits until it's too late. Many students are in such a rush to move up the run group ladder, because of peer pressure or ego, that they lack the necessary tools or skills that one accumulates while at the Novice and Intermediate levels to handle these unplanned on-track adventures.

 

[Red]

Perhaps I'm not common to the breed, but I'm doing this (DE) so I can learn to become a track driver and one day either race or just go to DE events and have a great time confident I am an excellent track driver.

What attracts me to the 944s is that it will not hide my errors, also will I be able to drive it towards the outside of its envelope - unlike the NSX which is so good that it allows me to have bad habbits while not allowing me to really see what I am doing wrong until its too late.

I don't want to be a hero because I have traction control. Nor do I want to be the fastest because I have the most horsepower. I want to outdrive better cars with lesser drivers, that is acomplishment. My 4 year old could probably crank out a fast lap in a Merchelago (if he could reach the clutch), but put him in a 944...

 

[ncdogdoc]

I think the 944 idea or a BMW 325i stripped with a few add on M3 parts is probably the ideal track day/race car. Lots of aftermarket and even better used (i.e. cheap) performance parts. Wheels and tires are not huge sizes, so consumables are cheap. Very light when stripped, and lots of people to work on them when they break.

I have a friend with a 1995 M3 stripped with suspension upgrades and sticky tires that can do VIR full course as fast as my track rat (before the DAL engine), so an M3 maybe too much car for play. There are lots and lots of junk 325's at the salvage yards, so repairs are very cheap if needed.

Plus both of these cars (esp the 325) have owner installed roll bars/sort of cages that make them much safer without spending the $2000+ for a custom cage.

p.s. Thanks for the compliment Bill, but in hindsight, both rear end crinkles were driver error, although Barber is still somewhat of a mystery. I just know I was a little too confident that session. Maybe there was something on the track, like a spatial distortion

 

[NSXLuvr]

I have been struggling with the same dilemna.

The short answer is: there is no perfect track car.

I testdrove a SM HOPING that I would like it. It was boring. Yeah, its a momentum car and would make me a better driver. However, it just wasn't as fun as driving my NSX. I luv the feeling of the NSX jumping out of the corners due to the acceleration, me having to brake hard while downshifting and dealing with the weight transfers, traction. On the SM, you let off on a couple of places at the track and brake at a couple of other places. The rest of the time the gas pedal is stuck to the floor. Its just not as fun.

So, In my situation, I feel either a e36 m3 or a 944 or a miata turbo would be the best place to start. For now I am just enjoying my NSX at 9/10ths :wink:

 

[Jason Weaver]

I am obviously a little biased but I just don't think one can go wrong with an E36 M3 track car. Especially as affordable as they are getting these days. Don't get me wrong the 944 turbos are a blast (I have one for sale - shameless plug :wink: ) but in terms of pure reliability and super easy to drive fast it's a hands down no brainer!

 

[dquarasr2]

There were some good suggestions here, but one that I am surprised about is the reference to an "SM" that was described as a momentum car but was boring.

Apologies if I didn't see it explicitly, but I assume the poster meant "Spec Miata".

I started getting really serious into driving with my '94 Miata. I must tell you that after driving the Miata and my newly-acquired '91 NSX at events at Sebring, I think the Miata is more fun. But, I have yet to fully find the NSX's limits, which are considerably higher. But I digress.

Here are the reasons to go with a Miata as a track car, at least to start:

- They are plentiful and very inexpensive. A decently performing Spec Miata can be put together for under $10k, including purchasing a car
- They are very robust and parts are very cheap
- They are extremely forgiving and are SO easy to catch
- They don't mask small things that slow you down; if you use the wrong line, there's not enough power to make up for the mistake
- They brake very, very well and it's really hard to overheat the brakes and run out of them, assuming good fluid and track-ready pads

Learn speed in a forgiving car, then move to one that has more, um, guts.

(BTW, there was mention here that Mark Hicks will "fix" TrackQuest. I've been instructing with Chin Motorsports, and they are a great group. The advantage to their system is one dedicatedd instructor, all day long, so yes, a rapport can be developed with the student and vice-versa.)

I'll be instructing at Sebring November 19 with the Acura, and this time it's got all new brake goodies so hopefully I won't run into the problems I had the first time I tracked it. Look me up if you attend. (red '91, #174)

 

[hatchback]

I've seen plenty of races, both amateur and professional, and it seems to me that everyone damages their car at one time or another. There's always a "reason", and some people are plenty eager to blame factors allegedly beyond their control, but every race there's a crash sometimes serious mostly not and every racer even the best or the most careful has off-track excursions and makes mistakes and suffers from the mistakes of others and will eventually crash their car or be crashed into if they haven't already. If that's true, as it certainly seems to me, then its plain foolish to drive your race car to the track because you might not be able to drive it back home. And its doubly foolish to track a car that you can't afford to write off completely, both financially and psychologically, because the chances that you will are significant.

Regarding the question that started the thread.... At some point you have to decide where and how you are going to race. BMW/Porsche Club? Honda Challenge? SCCA? FIA? Etc. Do you prefer to race against a lot of other cars or just a few? Are you okay if someone can beat you by outspending you or do you want them to beat you by outdriving you? Your choices will limit your vehicle choices.

 

[OLDE GUY]

Are you okay if someone can beat you by outspending you or do you want them to beat you by outdriving you?

Ultimately, that is the way it is. Something as easy to do as purchase new race tires for every race!

I will add one important point. Don't try learning to drive by attending SCCA schools. I had an SCCA competition license for a while. The SCCA school emphsizes the official racing rules and safety. There are so many groups that you get relatively little track time and there are always a lot of accidents. You only go to the SCCA school to obtain your license so you can compete in SCCA races - not to learn how to drive.

The "for profits" like Skip Barber Racing School can teach you a lot about driving theory and techniques. But unless you have a bundle of money to do the Skip Barber race series, you can't beat BMW, Porsche Clubs, etc. for the "seat time" that you get at reasonable prices. Do that for a couple years to get experience then you can decide what series you might want to compete in.