Summary - best track set up

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17 January 2007
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Location
Adelaide, South Australia
I'm keen to get consensus opinions on best track setup from experienced trackers POV (I have a 91 NSX).

Following is my best guess from listening to various NSXers for a year or two. :

1) sway bars:
Front: as stiff as humanly possible. e.g: Dali 1.125" OD bar
Rear: stock OEM (i.e. stay real soft)

2) springs: 2003 NSX-R (rates F:570 lb/in, R: 465 lb/in) dali comparison chart

3) chassis:
F: Add NSX-R bar across front. Dali Type R stabiliser bars
R: Fit SoS non-compliance bushes into rear beam SoS rear beam mods

4) setups
Toe F/R: ??
Camber F/R: ??
Caster F/R: ??

5) brakes: rotors / calipers / cooling ducts. (e.g. will stock brakes stand up to track work with race fluid installed and air cooling ducts / guides added and stone guards removed)

6) what else ?
 
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My alignment (Toyo R888 235/40/17 275/40/17)

Toe -0.3
Caster 8
Camber -1.5 (maxed out)

Toe +1.0
Camber -2.5
 
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Oh... add these to the list.

Add Motol 600 fluid & good pads (Hawk, Cobalt, Carbotech, etc) + air ducting at least for the fronts (I run 2" to F & R)
 
Well said John!
My .02 and this is not to detract from CL 65 Captain he is showing you what works best for him and his post about brake fluid here is very good and one of the most misunderstood concepts by even good racers! Ultimately your driving style is going to dictate your setup, do you drive best with an understeering car or a neutral or an oversteering car. Only your style will determine that, first get comfortable so that you develop consistency, then start to modfiy one thing at a time so that you are able to quantify the results and they are repeatable. This will minimize chasing your tail trying to figure out what is happening. Hopefully Stuntman and a few other experienced guys like (John did) will chime into this thread. I'm a long time open wheel racer with a lot of miles on me, oops! Better said a lot of testing time in open wheel racing and I don't track my NSX, but that is only because I have a track car!
 
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OK sure, but with respect I've done lots of track laps in the past, and tarmac rallies, but mainly in Porsches.

My question about track setup is a general one for NSX, leaving driving style apart. i.e. What is the best generic starting setup to track an NSX, per my original post?

I'm particuarly interested in eliminating compliance in suspension (front and rear) and the toe / camber settings required after this has been done. (for example, the stock rear toe settings seem to me to be a cover up of the fundamental compliance problem)

I will edit my original to add the obvious omission - brakes !
cheers
 
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Bring plenty of Crow. You will have to hand it out for lunch for the Porsche guys to eat. :biggrin:

It's funny. I instruct for three regional PCAs and they always assign me the students with the Jap cars (Subs, Evos, Civics, S2000) even though the Cayaman S is the closest handling wise to the NSX as far as driving style.
 
Any limitations/parameters in terms of:
power (N/A, F/I)
tire sizing/compound
brake sizes/pistons
track width
alignment specs/parameters
etc...?

What's your projected power goals?

What's the car going to be used for?
Street use
Street/track (HPDE/fun) use
sprint races
endurance races
road-rallies/hill climbs
etc...?
 
power: N/A, GTLW + Top speed headers
tire sizing/compound: treaded R-spec (e.g. Kumho V70A)
brake sizes/pistons: you tell me :redface:
track width:
if you mean race track width - wide! (and smooth surface)
if you mean wheel track width: keen to know
alignment specs/parameters: ditto

What's your projected power goals?
not radical, aiming for say 40hp over stock (@wheels). I'm already 20hp up.

What's the car going to be used for?
Street use: yes
Street/track (HPDE/fun) use: yes
sprint races: yes (club events only - not full on door banging races!)
endurance races: no
road-rallies: not for now
/hill climbs: no
 
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OK sure, but with respect I've done lots of track laps in the past, and tarmac rallies, but mainly in Porsches.

My question about track setup is a general one for NSX, leaving driving style apart. i.e. What is the best generic starting setup to track an NSX, per my original post?

I'm particuarly interested in eliminating compliance in suspension (front and rear) and the toe / camber settings required after this has been done. (for example, the stock rear toe settings seem to me to be a cover up of the fundamental compliance problem)

I will edit my original to add the obvious omission - brakes !
cheers

No disrespect taken Sparky you are asking good questions to get started with a car you may or may not be familiar with in a track environment and that in it self proves you have experience! Most people would not even ask in the manner you did! None of us meant to imply you were a neophite. Just want you to be safe and get a grin you can't wipe off your face!
Oh CL 65 Captain I like that crow statement it made me smile (ex porsche owner)!
 
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Bring plenty of Crow. You will have to hand it out for lunch for the Porsche guys to eat. :biggrin:

now you're on my wavelength ... how to make my old Porsche foes eat NSX dust :tongue:

But to be frank my 91 NSX will need a fair bit of tweeking before I will match my best times in my old 2002 Boxster S. Now that's a good challenge - both mid-rear drive, similar weight, similar power (260ps). But the stock Boxster S "sport" suspension is pretty damn good .... and the stock brakes are definitely better (318mm diameter @ front, four pot brembo calipers front & rear)

The Cayman S is just a Boxster S with a roof, (and a bit more power) so I totally agree with your comment ...

So are any of you guys matching / bettering Cayman S times on track ??
 
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So are any of you guys matching / bettering Cayman S times on track ??[/QUOTE]

Yes,at my one and only :frown: track wkend at Watkins Glen I was having some fun with another instructer level driver in a caymen s with wide hoosiers.I was running ra1 so yes a NA nsx can run as fast or faster at the track with drivers of similar experience,my car does have nsx-r susp and front bbk.
 
John, if with stock NA NSX you can keep up with a Cayman S driven by an instructor level driver with Hoosiers and you with RA1, then plenty kudos to you. I wasn't able to .... hence started the mods to avoid further embarrassment :wink:
 
I'm pretty happy with my pace,I do have a 3.2 L motor and the usual IHE for those not in the know.Certainly ,though many factors go into lap times and I know WGI very well so I feel comfortable there.For me the zo6 is the street car I can't hang with.:redface: Hoosiers on a well driven zo6 and my finger gets to pointin:wink:
 
Agree, the Z06 is in a differrent league. I must admit the Cayman S was driven by a very good instructor with Moton suspension and who knows what esle; he just kept pulling away at Infineon ........ Keeping within's one comfort pace is indeed how to have fun.

I also agree with others regarding your driving style will make a difference to how you set your car - even starting from the baseline; do one mod at a time.
 
So are any of you guys matching / bettering Cayman S times on track ??

Yes,at my one and only :frown: track wkend at Watkins Glen I was having some fun with another instructer level driver in a caymen s with wide hoosiers.I was running ra1 so yes a NA nsx can run as fast or faster at the track with drivers of similar experience,my car does have nsx-r susp and front bbk.[/QUOTE]

For the time being, I turned better lap time than numerous GT3's on those Michelins... but then I have Koni 2812, GT wing, and Nitto NT01 tires. The disadvantage is engine and brakes compared to GT3.

Since you have some racing expeience, I would recommend moderate upgrade on brakes. (pads /fluid/ 2piece rotors). It shouldn't take much to beat a caymen S time on a nsx.
 
I think it would be helpful if Billy and/or other experienced NSX track drivers would summarize for us what the performance suspension changes we see on NSX-R, Type-S and Zanardi really mean for track and street applications. Why, for example, did Honda decide to make the front springs stiffer on all of the above, but leave the reverse setup on stock NSX's? I know it increases understeer, but why is that important for track driving and not street? Will the car be more difficult to control/unpredictable on the street with the "track" suspension? I've always wondered about this. Wouldn't less tendency to over-rotate be beneficial for both street and track applications? Or, is there some disadvantage to having more understeer tendency on the street?
 
I think it would be helpful if Billy and/or other experienced NSX track drivers would summarize for us what the performance suspension changes we see on NSX-R, Type-S and Zanardi really mean for track and street applications. Why, for example, did Honda decide to make the front springs stiffer on all of the above, but leave the reverse setup on stock NSX's? I know it increases understeer, but why is that important for track driving and not street? Will the car be more difficult to control/unpredictable on the street with the "track" suspension? I've always wondered about this. Wouldn't less tendency to over-rotate be beneficial for both street and track applications? Or, is there some disadvantage to having more understeer tendency on the street?

first off it is (almost)always safer to have understeer as the general behavior for a street car.The simplest reason is because in general the population at large will brake first ask questions later.ABS has helped allowing average joes to panic brake and steer.The application of brakes places more weight on the front tires lessoning understeer.Now inherent oversteer(loose) is made worse by braking and spinning is the result.On track I have used the zanardi and type R and the stiffer spring rates of the R help keep the car flatter in corners,but what really makes the r susp better and faster on track imo is the dampers that react faster and keep the tires on the road more so than other shocks.I think spring rates up to a point say 1000-1200 lbs front 600-800 lbs rear work well for track cars only when the dampers are of very high quality.
 
first off it is (almost)always safer to have understeer as the general behavior for a street car.The simplest reason is because in general the population at large will brake first ask questions later.ABS has helped allowing average joes to panic brake and steer.The application of brakes places more weight on the front tires lessoning understeer.Now inherent oversteer(loose) is made worse by braking and spinning is the result.On track I have used the zanardi and type R and the stiffer spring rates of the R help keep the car flatter in corners,but what really makes the r susp better and faster on track imo is the dampers that react faster and keep the tires on the road more so than other shocks.I think spring rates up to a point say 1000-1200 lbs front 600-800 lbs rear work well for track cars only when the dampers are of very high quality.

DocJohn, this is one of the best posts on driving instruction I have seen on this site. It is very true that an understeering car is inherently safer to drive and in some cases faster for the novice and some of the best lean towards understeering cars, weight transfer under lateral acceleration and polar moment are some of the more advanced driver control methodolgies that are within the reach of all drivers with attention to detail and good instruction. I believe you said you are an instructor, well if that is so I'm sure you do your students well. I spend a considirable amount of time in the shop preparing my car such as bump steering the suspension after a set up to ensure the jounce and droop settings follow that expectation I have. The person who tunes (analy I suppose) their suspension and works out the bugs to ensure proper handling (when the car gets loose it is predictable) stays on the pointy end of the grid and if everyone in the group is as anal as the next then competition is set at a high level on the bar. This is (for me anyway) where the fun comes in and the chess match begins. Cheers I think your students are lucky! Oh and you are right of course you steer the stiff end of the car and adjust springs to be as light as compliance and ground clearance will allow (mechanical grip) and tune your shocks to deal with the rebound of bump and compression to get that rubber back on the road, as the fastest way from point a to point b is not by sliding but by acceleration through. I remember Carrol Smith at a semminar saying enter at 99 exit at 105, the other guy enters at 100 and exits at 100 and you will kick his arse through the turn and he will swear you are cheating!
 
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Thanks for the compliment,,I figured now after the elections we can get back to discussing cars and driving:wink:
 
The application of brakes places more weight on the front tires lessoning understeer.

So, by placing stiffer springs in the front, it resists this transfer of weight and keeps more on the rear wheels, correct? My understanding is that this retains rear grip on braking and corner entry at the expense of some front grip. Is this the point of the stiffer front R, S and Zanardi setups?

I guess my confusion is that if understeer is generally safer, why are the stock NSX's left with oversteer bias and the performance/track models given more understeer? Is there an advantage to more oversteer on the street that would warrant this decision? I have heard that the greater oversteer bias results in a more responsive steering feel as opposed to the "understeer" setups with stiffer front springs and thicker front sways. My main concern is that I currently have the Eibach/Koni setup. Like stock, the Eibachs have softer front springs. I'm worried about encountering a snap oversteer condition on hard braking/cornering or on slick roads. Was thinking about adding the Tanabe springs, which are close to Type-S rates with front bias.
 
I'm not sure where you got the basic belief that the stock nsx is setup for oversteer,,it is'nt.As I said most car manufacturers dial in a degree of understeer from the factory it is safer.The "tuning" of a car has so much physics involved if you are a splitter there are volumes of literature devoted to car suspension physics,but I'm a lumper:biggrin: it all boils down to how fast can it get around a race track and not kill you.That said any good driver can take an nsx around a track and whether it has 1000 lb front and 2 lb rear of 100lb rear and 50 lb front springs will adjust thier inputs to get it round,how fast is the question.Imo the Japanese tuners like stiffer rear springs,here in the US we prefer stiffer fronts.What I'm telling you is not to overanalyze every lb /every inch:wink: just start off with a tested tried and true setup go through old threads talk to other owners ect,,,and then whatever you do practice hpde,autox,have fun.
 
So, by placing stiffer springs in the front, it resists this transfer of weight and keeps more on the rear wheels, correct?

yes, provided you're on a smooth track.

My understanding is that this retains rear grip on braking and corner entry at the expense of some front grip. Is this the point of the stiffer front R, S and Zanardi setups?

well... yes, but only rear grip in the sense of relatively more weight on a rear wheel, making it less likely to lock a brake while car is unbalanced by braking application. But I doubt this is reason for stiffer front springs. If rear brake lockup is a big problem the professional solution would be to fit braking bias adjustment valves into the hydraulics, and adjust so less force goes to rear brake pads.

Keep in mind NSX has ~ 450lb more weight over the rear axles even when standing still.

I guess my confusion is that if understeer is generally safer, why are the stock NSX's left with oversteer bias and the performance/track models given more understeer?

I'm wouldn't say stock suspension is deliberately oversteer biassed by Honda. It's more a case of most of the weight is over rear axle so rear wheels have to do more work to hold car on track (hence wider tyres). Combined with power to rear wheels and compliance build up in rear bushings means the car can be provoked with rapid power application at wrong moment into snap oversteer / tank slapper syndrome. But I have had this happen in a Porsche Boxster S also, which has a very similar "polar moment of inertia" (weight distribution) yet I would not say they're oversteer biased either.

Is there an advantage to more oversteer on the street that would warrant this decision?

Honda would not have made such a "decision" - see above.

I have heard that the greater oversteer bias results in a more responsive steering feel as opposed to the "understeer" setups with stiffer front springs and thicker front sways.

You're talking about "turn in" i.e. how well a car follows your steering commands and turns into a corner. By definition an understeering car doesn't turn in as well as an oversteering car.

But people don't set up a car for more oversteer to get better turn in per say. More like: on a car with excessive understeer (not the NSX) they will adjust suspension to reduce the understeer.

I'd say the stock NSX in a fast corner with smooth power application has mild oversteer tendencies, plus the risk of snap oversteer if rapid power application or dramatic steering inputs occur.

NSX trackers I know have addressed the mild oversteer characteristic mainly by beefing up the front anti-roll bar, which has the effect of lifting inside rear wheel off while cornering, thus reducing front grip, thus better balancing front/rear grip. I'd suggest you try this before changing to heavier springs.

The guys that know say the best approach to developing track setup is to do one change at a time, learn what it does to the car's handling, then move to next mod. one at a time, bit by bit. The measure for each change is whether your lap times come down :smile:
 
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