Stupid/novice Brake Question

ak

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I tracked my car for the first time this past weekend(what fun
biggrin.gif
) anyway, after 2-3 sessions, my brakes were shuddering like hell. I have stock everything. My questions are...

1. Why do brake shudder?
2. Is this due to warped rotor? If so, then what does it mean when the rotor is warped?
3. Yesterday, i was driving the car and no brake shudder. Why not? Does it only raise its ugly head when the brake is hot??
4. Do I still need to turn the rotor? I plan to put on carbotech pads soon.
 
This has been a subject of extended discussion and debate. As you already are aware, when rotors are warped, they usually shudder all the time, not just when they get hot.

The best guess is that the brake shudder occurs only when hot, due to the development of "hot spots" on the rotors. These are areas that expand at different rates when they are heated, so that the rotor is not a uniform thickness; hence the shudder.

Turning the rotor will only help temporarily and may not even help at all; the shudder will soon return and may quickly get even worse.

I had previously experienced LOTS of brake shudder, which required replacing the rotors every four track events. I eventually conquered it through a combination of aftermarket pads (RM Racing), rotors (PowerSlot), brake fluid (Motul 600), and cooling ducts.

I think this is discussed in the FAQ.
 
In your situation, I would switch to Aftermarket pads. Porterfield R4S's are great street/track pads. They aren't very good for heavy track duty, so you will probably graduate from using those at the track after 1-2 events, but they are MUCH better than stock.
 
Your new carbotech pads may help too. I recently put on Carbotech Plusses.. I've noticed a HUGE improvement and last time I went for an aggressive drive in the mountains I didn't feel any shudder. I havn't tested them at the track yet either. I'm also using the air ducts like nsxtsy mentioned as well.
 
When rotors are warped, you feel the same kind of vibration in the front end, but you feel it all the time, even when the rotors are cold.

If rotors are slightly warped, you can fix them by having them turned (ground down so they're flat again). However, this will make them more susceptible to warping again in the future, because they're then thinner. If they're severely warped, or if they've already been turned once, then just replace them.
 
There are the types of rotor warpage. One type is what I call "cold warpage" and the other is "hot ghost warpage". Cold warpage is a permanent warpage which you will feel at all speeds and temperatures - it is typically the result of poor casting and quality control. "Hot ghost warpage" becomes evident only when the rotors reach a certain temperature, such as when they become hot after hard braking; it results from uneven heating and cooling during the heat tempering process and/or the final cryogenic treatment of the rotor. This type of warpage in the rotor is NOT evident when they are cold - you can literally put the rotor on a lathe with a feeler gauge at room temperature, and it will spin true...but heat it up to some arbitrary temperature, say, 500deg, and the warping becomes evident.

Now, there is a third cause of brake shudder, which is NOT caused by a warped rotor, but can often lead many to believe that their rotors are warped. This third cause is "friction material film transfer", which is essentially the irregular, non-uniform deposition/transfer of brake friction material onto the rotor surface. All high-performance compounds exhibit this phenomenon to a certain extent at various temperatures, with some compounds being very hard offenders, indeed. When the brake friction material is deposited or smeared onto the rotor surface in an irregular pattern, upon application of the brakes, the brake pad will "grab-and-release" on the film transfers due to chemical adhesion, resulting in a brake shudder, and thus simulating what is often assumed to be a warped rotor.

Andie Lin


[This message has been edited by HomeDepotNSX (edited 03 October 2001).]
 
Nice write-up Andie.

BTW, anyone looking to upgrade their brake pads should seriously consider the Carbotech Panther Plus pads that Andie sells. I bought a full set from Carbotech and ran them for two days at Sebring and they felt better than any other pad that I've used, and I've tried them all!

Thanks again Andie.
 
I'll second that. I've put the Carbotech Panthers Plus through 4 track days at Sears Point and they held up very well on my track Miata. The pads were very progressive and had no fade whatsoever.
 
Originally posted by nsxtasy:
How were they for dusting?

More dust than a stock or RMracing pad, but much better performance and virtually no wear. I'm only going to be using them for track events. They have awesome initial bite, but until they get warmed up on the street they do squeal a bit. I personally don't mind the squeal, but everyone looks at me like I need a brake job. Besides, I can now do a complete pad change and fluid flush in under one hour by myself.

-Cheers
 
Originally posted by nsxtasy:
How were they for dusting?

I agree with the comments above. They dust a little more than OEM pads, but not bad. I drive with them on the street as well and they do squeal/squeek a bit. Good thing is these pads don't eat the rotors for everyday street use.
 
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