Speed out, Vettel in.

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Toro Rosso fired Speed and Sebastian Vettel got his first regular "not-test-driver" F1 seat he's already going to drive at Budapest next sunday.

So after making history winning a championship point at his first race standing in for Kubica he's going to drive Toro Rosso this year.

Exciting year for young new talents in F1.
 
I dont know wy thyre blaming speed when their car sucks. Speed has been doing way better than liuzzi anyway.
 
Re: Why? Good question.

I dont know wy thyre blaming speed when their car sucks.
I think F-1 has demonstrated that U.S. drivers (US born or Champ Car grads) are just from the "wrong side of the tracks".......er, pond. Maybe it's part of the image problem the US has in general elsewhere in the world? It's definitely tough for any driver without boatloads of money to make it in a politically charged atmosphere like F-1, but it seems like it's a steeper hill for the "US guys". Maybe I'm wrong. Hopefully one of our esteemed F-1 afficionados will enlighten us. :redface:
 
Re: Why? Good question.

I think F-1 has demonstrated that U.S. drivers (US born or Champ Car grads) are just from the "wrong side of the tracks".......er, pond. Maybe it's part of the image problem the US has in general elsewhere in the world? It's definitely tough for any driver without boatloads of money to make it in a politically charged atmosphere like F-1, but it seems like it's a steeper hill for the "US guys". Maybe I'm wrong. Hopefully one of our esteemed F-1 afficionados will enlighten us. :redface:

I think you are both forgetting that you actually have to be good as well as have the resources to get there. Contrary to popular American belief, Speed did not outperform Liuzzi this year, it was the other way around. Speed and Liuzzi split better race results 50/50 through the European GP. Liuzzi beat Speed in qualifying 60% of the time this year.

The only true measure of a driver is against his team mate, because they are in the same car. Speed was not beating Liuzzi, and he was mouthing off and whining a lot. The only other place he could have gone was spyker, and they probably wouldn't have him either.

Speed wasn't really good enough, in fact I suspect he was simply brought in because he was American! Red Bull themselves acknowledge that the US is their largest market, and that this was the primary reason they were sad to see the USGP not on the schedule next year.

Anyway, when a truly world class driver comes out of the US, you can be sure there won't be any problems for him in F1.
 
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Re: And SeaBass?

OK, now we know.

Maybe you could help this gentleman get his facts straight.

So, any predictions about SeaBass or is he just another so-so like all the rest? Or did they even bother to pick up the option?
 
I'm still confused why they let Vettel sit at the test before Hungary with nothing to do and let Speed test the car, especially since Vettel has never been in the Torro??? If they are going to release him, put the new kid in the car and give him some seat time?

Up until the last race, the car usually let Scott down, not the other way around. They still don't have the tranny reliable as was evident in qualifying today. Seabass is talking Nascar, so it looks like F1 may not want another Cart champion. Well, Nascar is up to what, 4 road courses now? Maybe he'll bring in the French demographic? :tongue:
 
Re: And SeaBass?

OK, now we know.

Maybe you could help this gentleman get his facts straight.

So, any predictions about SeaBass or is he just another so-so like all the rest? Or did they even bother to pick up the option?

That's odd, because when I look at the official F1 site, it appears that Liuzzi outqualified Speed 6 out of 10 races. Maybe I counted wrong? It is very possible, something I would definitely admit to if it is the case.

Also, those stats are misleading, because they don't lay it down simply. Speed only finished ahead of his team mate 5 out of 10 times. Who cares if he had more top ten laps finished, or finished in the top 10 once or led his team mate more laps than vice versa. In the end, did he actually beat his team mate at the end of the day in what matters, final positions? Yeah, but only 50% of the time. Also, what is the championship points difference between the two? Oh, I see...To say he outperformed Liuzzi is a media twist. Speed was very very outspoken about his negative feelings for his bosses though, and you won't last long when you are doing that. If I were Speed, I would have put my head down and worked my ass off, instead of saying I really don't care anymore about my future here. Bad attitude.

I still maintain that Speed was not in the top 10-15 drivers in the F1 world, and wouldn't have done much even if given a decent car to drive. He would not have beaten his team mate anywhere else except maybe spyker.
 
Re: One heck of an entertaining season

Also, those stats are misleading,
OK, we got it. Don't waste any more time with us, you need to get after Varsha and Hobbs after they put up the same or similar numbers and mistakenly thought they proved a point. And then made comments like......well you heard them I'm sure. But how about when Hobbs went on to say this about SeaBass "I hope he knows what he's doing?" :rolleyes:

And it will be interesting to see what Vettel can do here after what he did subbing for Kubica. We won't jump to any conclusions from this weekend.

Here's the best part; the wife passed up Desparate Housewives tonight to watch the race with me since she thinks F-1 now provides more scandal and dirt !!!! :biggrin:
 
Re: One heck of an entertaining season

OK, we got it. Don't waste any more time with us, you need to get after Varsha and Hobbs after they put up the same or similar numbers and mistakenly thought they proved a point. And then made comments like......well you heard them I'm sure. But how about when Hobbs went on to say this about SeaBass "I hope he knows what he's doing?" :rolleyes:

And it will be interesting to see what Vettel can do here after what he did subbing for Kubica. We won't jump to any conclusions from this weekend.

Here's the best part; the wife passed up Desparate Housewives tonight to watch the race with me since she thinks F-1 now provides more scandal and dirt !!!! :biggrin:

I can't tell if you are being trying to be mean and sarcastic or not...anyway, I agree with your thoughts on Vettel. It really will be a good measure against Speed and Liuzzi. Vettel is meant to be very good.
 
Re: Why? Good question.

I think you are both forgetting that you actually have to be good as well as have the resources to get there. Contrary to popular American belief, Speed did not outperform Liuzzi this year, it was the other way around. Speed and Liuzzi split better race results 50/50 through the European GP. Liuzzi beat Speed in qualifying 60% of the time this year.

The only true measure of a driver is against his team mate, because they are in the same car. Speed was not beating Liuzzi, and he was mouthing off and whining a lot. The only other place he could have gone was spyker, and they probably wouldn't have him either.

Speed wasn't really good enough, in fact I suspect he was simply brought in because he was American! Red Bull themselves acknowledge that the US is their largest market, and that this was the primary reason they were sad to see the USGP not on the schedule next year.

Anyway, when a truly world class driver comes out of the US, you can be sure there won't be any problems for him in F1.

I think your stats are backwards, but you are right about Speeds lack of discipline. He had a big, stereotypical American, mouth. He is obviously horrible at F1 politics. Everytime he was on screen, I was begging for him to just shut up and be humble. For his own sake! But truth be told, I agreed with much of his bitching. Speed has had so many bad (a'hem) "breaks" with his car and wreckless traffic, I often felt like he was being sabotaged.

I hope Speed gets a second chance. I hope he matures and finds a team willing to hear him out. And I hope that Liuzzi continues to suck as he has sucked all along. Speed was never the problem, just the black sheep.
 
Re: Why? Good question.

I think your stats are backwards...

I see the article on paddocktalk states the opposite but comparing Speed & Liuzzi's starting grid positions as listed on www.formula1.com will show Liuzzi had a higher starting grid position on 6 of 10 matchups: Malaysia, Bahrain, Spain, Monaco, Canada and the US.

Of the races in which he finished ahead of Liuzzi only in two, Malaysia and the US, did both Toro Rossos actually complete the race.

The stats that the Speed channel put up are essentially nonsense, academic stats. Laps ahead, top ten laps, yadda yadda. The fact is Liuzzi was a better qualifier in 2007 and they were tied for championship points with zero and neither was consitently finishing or qualifying ahead of the other.

Speed is obviously a better driver but if you're him you've got to get those results and not let Liuzzi ever beat you, especially in qualifying if you want people to believe you're better. Suggesting that Speed is a substantially better driver when Liuzzi outqualifies him is a tough sell because it's difficult to prove mathematically with bottom-line results stats. He is definitely better than Liuzzi but didn't show it every time out and especially where it counts--qualifying and race positions.

I think he was probably good enough to get some points and finish a little better than where he did but his constant failure to consistently beat Liuzzi and the fact that Webber and DC are blowing him away in the other Red Bull didn't bode well for him. He certainly was in no position to whine.

Speed got absolutely snakebitten several times this year as his best starts ended in retirements. However he was absolutely not in the top 10 of drivers and maybe not the top 15. If he was European his skill level alone would not have carried him to F1. He was in F1 because he was American.

I guess he thought that if he called out his team he would be able to preemptively assign the perceived blame to them instead of himself and possibly have another team take a chance on him believing, perhaps, that it was the team's fault that he hasn't been successful. Unfortunately, however, his vociferousness just made him appear to be an ungrateful, undisciplined, undiplomatic big-mouth. No doubt he did not get a fair shake and was run out of town but his results were just short of putting himself in a sympathetic position for another team to commit to him.

We're going to see Vettel do much better I think in the Toro Rosso once he gets a handle on how inferior the chassis is to the BMW. If Vettel does not do well I think Speed might have a chance to sneak back in through some team's back door, maybe Spyker or whatever they become. It does seem the veterans are able to handle the inferior cars better than the newcomers as their fundamentals are stronger. I do think Vettel, unlike Speed, is a real talent and he'll be blowing Liuzzi away and hanging with DC very soon.

Speed I think is finished in F1. He's better than he got credit for but not good enough for me to want to hire him as opposed to putting my energy towards looking for fresh young talent.
 
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I can't tell if you are being trying to be mean and sarcastic or not
I’m being sarcastic but not trying to be mean. Your opinion seems to be informed and grounded most of the time, but this one just flies in the face of so many people paid to be impartial and informed I just had to give you a good natured poke about that. (add Despain to the list, but I'm not necessarily counting the paddocktalk guy)

Possibly what confused things is that my part of this thread was just a general question about whether or not Americans get a fair shake in F-1. Given the commonly accepted backdrop of political, financial and emotional games playing (common to all of racing, not just F-1), it’s a fair question. It was admittedly a bad time to ask the question because 1) Scott Speed obviously has baggage, 2) probably is not long-term F-1 material and 3) Red Bull wants an American in there and spent $53 mill on him to get him there (oh no, another Speed channel compiled stat). So, to be clear, I’m not a Scott Speed fan, but just asking a question. But I will own up to buying into criticism of the STR management. Hope that clears the air a little.

Back to my question at hand; any predictions on SeaBass’s performance at STR?
 
Ha ha, don't tempt me or get me started!!! :biggrin: that $53 million "stat" was purely subjective and speculative. They didn't have any real basis for that number other than their estimates. That being said, it was a lot of money! Another thing, when was the media (especially in this country!!!) paid to be impartial and objective!? Surely you jest! :tongue:

Anyway, my prediction for SeaBass is that he will not score a point either, but will beat Liuzzi in every relevant heads up category, barring car failures. This means qualifying and final race position. Vettel is, as NSXGMS says, a real talent, not a marketed one.
 
Re: Liuzzi out SeaBass in? maybe

my prediction for SeaBass is that he will not score a point either, but will beat Liuzzi
OK, something to file away for next year.

Will Liuzzi even finish the season? Tost qualified his lukewarm statement something to the effect that they didn't "plan" to make any more changes this year suggesting that something else just may come along. Anyway he'll be gone when SeaBass arrives. And while we're at it, maybe I should make that an "if" he arrives. I assume he thinks he'll show some talent and can tough it out til a real team picks him up. The question is, has he got the stomach for it. :confused:
 
Re: Liuzzi out SeaBass in? maybe

OK, something to file away for next year.

Will Liuzzi even finish the season? Tost qualified his lukewarm statement something to the effect that they didn't "plan" to make any more changes this year suggesting that something else just may come along. Anyway he'll be gone when SeaBass arrives. And while we're at it, maybe I should make that an "if" he arrives. I assume he thinks he'll show some talent and can tough it out til a real team picks him up. The question is, has he got the stomach for it. :confused:

Well, there aren't going to be many quality seats available next year. Fisichella looks like he's on his way out but I doubt Renault would want to replace him with Vettel. I don't think Vettel really has a choice and certainly doesn't want to go to Spyker. I don't see too many other major moves in 2008.

This might be his best bet until 2009. All he has to do is keep pace with DC this year and start challenging Webber next year and he will have shown himself to be worthy of a high-profile seat. Webber is really showing what that chassis can do, consistently pushing into Q3.

Most rookies have to pay their dues. Vettel is no different. He should suck it up and drive. Essentially all he has to do is beat Liuzzi every time out and do well relative to the other Red Bulls and other teams will notice. Speed never did that.
 
Re: Liuzzi to Williams?

So, what about this rumor that Liuzzi could land at Williams? I have no idea about those odds, but just think it would be great if it happened because it would shine a light on this STR management situation. His performance at Williams could be a much truer test of his capability, I would hope. If he did reasonably well in a reasonably performing car/team it would be poetic justice for both he and Speed as it would clearly show what a POS the current STR car was and that STR management deserves to "F...ing Swivel." (my new favorite phrase :redface:)
 
Re: Liuzzi to Williams?

So, what about this rumor that Liuzzi could land at Williams? I have no idea about those odds, but just think it would be great if it happened because it would shine a light on this STR management situation. His performance at Williams could be a much truer test of his capability, I would hope. If he did reasonably well in a reasonably performing car/team it would be poetic justice for both he and Speed as it would clearly show what a POS the current STR car was and that STR management deserves to "F...ing Swivel." (my new favorite phrase :redface:)

Liuzzi should be a more than capable tester. Wouldn't be the worst move. I think the F1 community is beginning to see that the STR team is full of it and taking a chance on Liuzzi or Speed wouldn't be that crazy of an option.
 
Re: The driver or the car.............

And it will be interesting to see what Vettel can do here after what he did subbing for Kubica. We won't jump to any conclusions from this weekend.
And I guess we'd better not jump to any conclusions from this weekend's results either. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Berger hails Vettel's impact on STR

Oh, so that's all it takes. Just pull into the garage and smile. :cool: After all 19th or 20th isn't DFL. :rolleyes:

Is he insinuating that Speed should have been happy with a shitty car and seemingly disorganized team?? If i had a driver that "didn't mind" losing every race with an unreliable car i think i would be worried to say the least!
 
Re: Berger hails Vettel's impact on STR

Oh, so that's all it takes. Just pull into the garage and smile. :cool: After all 19th or 20th isn't DFL. :rolleyes:

Seriously, after reading the linked article, STR needs to leave the sport if they are so willing to be uncompetitive. Every series has back markers, but it seems like they are a little too enthusiastic about being there.

Bourdais must be out of his mind.

Philip
 
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