Spacers - pros and cons

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I can only find 2 threads that address spacers at the track and after reading I am left with more questions.

I am considering 5 mm or 15 mm spacers for potential performance gains, I do not run a BBK so clearance is not the issue. I am running stock 16/17 wheels with Advan A048s. I have the JIC suspension with 1.25" drop and SOS sway bars in middle position front and loose position rear.

Do spacers offer a performance gain at the track? One opinion I read was that they only make a difference in highly tuned race cars. How is steering feel affected?

Thanks for your feedback!
 
Do spacers offer a performance gain at the track?
Yes, slight.
One opinion I read was that they only make a difference in highly tuned race cars.
Not necessarily
How is steering feel affected?
Not noticeable, maybe a little heavier.

5mm is nothing - wont notice it. 10-15 you'll notice slightly (depending on your driving skills). It wont add a whole lot more stress on your components -I wouldnt worry about that.
 
I don't know why I haven't heard anyone mention it here on prime BUT everywhere else talks about how they put added wear and stress on the wheel bearings.

i've heard the same.
i sometimes wonder if that's the reason why my rear wheel bearings had to be replaced when i bought it (maybe previous owner had spacers or different wheels?)
 
I had used the H&R 25mm front and back on stock 15/16 on my set of worn RA1. It's noticeably heavier but there's more grip.

I guess it's true that there's added stress on the wheel bearings, but you know you can minimize the wear and tear by not driving the car at all. ;) I wouldn't think the spacer will be any different than, say, wider rims or tires.

I guessed the most important thing is, if the cost of the spacer will gain you anything in your budget. In my case, the H&R spacers got me using those RA1 for 2 more track days so I didn't have to buy new tires and heat cycled them at the end of last season.

Now a better tires or more aggresive alignment (or, more track time) might yield the same result (more performance) for more or less $$.
 
I had used the H&R 25mm front and back on stock 15/16 on my set of worn RA1. It's noticeably heavier but there's more grip.

I guessed the most important thing is, if the cost of the spacer will gain you anything in your budget. In my case, the H&R spacers got me using those RA1 for 2 more track days so I didn't have to buy new tires and heat cycled them at the end of last season.QUOTE]

Are you saying that the spacers extended the life of your tires? Can you explain why that would be the case?
 
no it doesn't extend the life of the tires... but if you going to DE at the same track enough, you'd like to improve your own driving, or simply put, a better lap time, and/or fast enough to hang with the track buddies.

With my RA1 that I had been used 8 times and stored a winter, the compound is hardened. Without the help of the spacers, I would have to junk those tires and spend maybe 1k to get new track tires. Which, with couple months left, it's not as beneficial as getting those new tires in new season next spring.
 
I guess it's true that there's added stress on the wheel bearings, but you know you can minimize the wear and tear by not driving the car at all. ;) I wouldn't think the spacer will be any different than, say, wider rims or tires.

It supposed to be the distance from the wheel mounting surface to the wheel bearing that adds the extra leverage on the wheel bearings from what I'm told.

It was always on off road forums where I hear about this though. Does make sense to me though.
 
Does adding spacers require re-alignment?


In theory no.

Spacers do nothing to camber, toe, caster etc.

For the street no align is needed. For the track, you may need to do some tweaking due to possible oversteer/understeer changes, or high speed stability. Remember tires are actually an aerodynamic part of the car at triple digit speeds. Wheel placement within the fenders, and tire width plays a function to high speed stability and handling. Even lowering your car affects this. For you street guys running up to 80-90 mph for short bursts, you need not to worry. But us track guys can notice things @ 145mph.
 
I have a real hard time believing that moving your wheels out 15-25mm won't completely change the way the car behaves. Worse even if you are doing something different to the front and to the rear. If there is only a performance benefit why didn't the factory do it? Seems like there is more to this than what is being talked about here.
 
I have a real hard time believing that moving your wheels out 15-25mm won't completely change the way the car behaves. Worse even if you are doing something different to the front and to the rear. If there is only a performance benefit why didn't the factory do it? Seems like there is more to this than what is being talked about here.


I sorta agree. I have run NSX's at the track at top levels with oem 15/16 with no spacers with slicks, H&R/Koni set-up, and could out handle Z06's, P-cars. F-cars etc. I believe 99% of the reason to use H&R spacers on stock wheels is for looks only. If you truely want track performance, you will have a BBK, thus 17" wheels, and 8.0 wide in front, and 9-10" wide in the rear at the correct offsets.
 
Seems like there is more to this than what is being talked about here.

Probably what is missing herein is simply the basics.

The NSX has an in-wheel independent unequal length multi-link double wishbone suspension design.

Increasing the wheelbase of the vehicle (distance between axles) gives a vehicle better high speed stability. Increasing the track of a vehicle (distance between tire centerlines) gives a vehicle better lateral (cornering) stability.

Adding a spacer or using low offset wheels increases the track width of a vehicle. This is a tool that when used properly basically has the effect of minimizing weight transfer while cornering.

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handling/handling_weightxfr.shtml



I have a real hard time believing that moving your wheels out 15-25mm won't completely change the way the car behaves.

From what I've learned the significant side affect in theory of changing the track on your NSX is you change the position of the contact patch in relation to what is known as the instant center. I could explain it but I'd rather point you to a reference if you are really interested as any good explanation would get very deep and lengthy.

Put in the most simple terms, the tire contact patch is designed to be in a specific spot relative to the upper and lower A arms in a double wishbone suspension design. When you change the offset either with a spacer or wheel/tire; you are in effect deviating from the load figures and angles accounted for by the factory suspension geometry during deflection.

Another wards, when you change the position of the center of the tires contact patch and load the suspension up... you are changing how the tires vector force is transmitted up through the suspension arms and to the dampers and chassis. Kind of like holding a torque wrench in a different spot.

The extent of which comes down to a multitude of factors, and in many cases is only most significant at a given suspension deflection, because an unequal length, multi-link system has an instant center that moves as the suspension deflects.

In practice on a race track, my experience is the same as Billy's, 15mm-25mm is the point whereas if you have great butt feelers you'll just start to feel an increase in lateral stability. I used to track on some +15's on +37 wheels and you could just tell. Big changes tend to net bigger rewards. Stock NSX track width is 1510mm front /1530mm rear and 30mm-50mm track increase being discussed here is relatively negligible in the grand scheme of things.


Worse even if you are doing something different to the front and to the rear.

If previously you were at neutral and you really got it wrong some-how... the most significant thing you will notice is the tendency for the vehicle to now exhibit a slight under-steer or over-steer condition. If the vehicle is exhibiting under-steer you can increase the front track. If the vehicle tendency is now towards over-steer you can reduce the rear track.


If there is only a performance benefit why didn't the factory do it? Seems like there is more to this than what is being talked about here.

Ahh. Why didn't the factory do it. :biggrin:

Well, because like it or not you didn't purchase a GT1 race car. You purchased the well mannered road sports car version. As such, among other things you bought yourself all of the suspension compromises that come with one. Such as a smaller track / tighter steering radius for better low speed maneuvering while parking at your next NSX club lunch. I'll tell you what. Come try and turn mine around in a parking lot sometime and the reason will be much clearer. I would be more than happy to show you how to dial out a lot of street-ability. :wink:


Seems like there is more to this than what is being talked about here.

You'll be fine. Just be safe. If you have a higher offset wheel you want to use just make sure you 1) don't have any rubbing under full suspension travel and 2) get one that is hub-centric with a trim ring for your specific wheel so your studs aren't carrying the full load. I do not like the ones with the short integrated studs. There are shops that can make you a full set specific to your requirements, or grab some longer studs and when you do brakes TitaniumDave can even make you a hat CNC'd to your requirements.

If you need a pro opinion.... I've spoken with one of the suspension engineers at TRG (whom btw, should have adequate credentials around these parts having probably won more Rolex GT class races than years either of us have been on this earth) and their take was that 1/2-5/8" or so is a good start with no ill-effects on most any production vehicle they have come into, but nothing beats real-world testing/logging. :smile:

If unsure get a transponder, lay down some hot laps and log your results for our community evaluation. :wink:
 
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I knew you'd come up with a good reply. Are you saying because of the unequal length multi-link system the NSX can maintain its intended contact patch better than others with some spacing changes? It sounds like you are giving this mod an OK overall within reasonable limits. What about the wheel bearing thing? I have heard that too.

Last, can you think of any other drawback besides the turning radius issue? Do you agree that the offset increase/decrease should be maintained front and rear on a stock suspension? I know you can start playing once you start changing other things that change under/over steer.
 
I knew you'd come up with a good reply. Are you saying because of the unequal length multi-link system the NSX can maintain its intended contact patch better than others with some spacing changes?

I am simply stating that different suspension designs will react differently to a significant change in vehicle track width. I don't know enough at this point to make that specific point you are making. Case by case here... I have only read-up on independent designs.

Here is a good primer with pretty pics on other types of common suspension designs:
http://www.carbibles.com/suspension_bible.html



It sounds like you are giving this mod an OK overall within reasonable limits.

Yes. I can tell you that in the right context, the wider track mod is faster. Minimal on a road car. Maybe not as cool as a JDM widget.. but basic weight balancing/transfer control mods are awesome for track.

If you were a qualified engineer and re-designing the entire suspension for full race, track width would be just one parameter taken into account. Most of us are working within the constraints of the stock suspension, so just be mindful of what changes you are making. I suspect most will be making bigger far more significant changes in tandem (e.g. moving to more tire, race suspension, etc...) and thus I wouldn't dwell on it. It is the cumulative results that count.

The thing to remember is suspension is like anything else (brakes/engine/etc...).

Cars are like big dials. One side reads Kia Spectra then in the middle is Porsche 987 starbucks sippin' Boxster and on the other side it reads Porsche 917 race car. Any one small change unto itself is probably not going to make or break drive-ability or performance. However, when you start adding everything together or making drastic changes then you hit this point whereas you are like... hmm... I see. I can't have both.

In general, unless you are a track enthusiast, increasing the track width or running ubber large tires is not a significantly beneficial modification dollar for dollar IMHO and will create more problems then it is worth. Most people buy spacers to fill in fender gaps or something for aesthetics. You would likely do better by focusing on the basics like suspension/tire setup. Buy yourself some more seat time at the next track day.

The reality is wide-body / extreme track type modifications are designed to increase lateral mechanical grip, not make the car 'street fast' in a straight line by any measure. In fact, they can slow it down. Why do you think stream liners on the salt flats are so long and narrow? High speed stability.

My data point is 1510mm front /1530mm rear is NSX 02' track width, and will go so far as to disclose that in current trim my wide body is at 1596mm front and 1630mm rear at the spindle at 35psi. Not that it is all that comparable.. but for reference a Super GT 500 car with 13" wheels is like 1690mm/1685mm



What about the wheel bearing thing? I have heard that too.

Don't worry about it. All I can say is I've never replaced mine yet and I have a pretty extreme difference. I have on other vehicles with larger wheels/tires but the NSX so far has been ok. If you are at the point as a driver whereas you are doing heavy modifications and track width changes are a primary talking point, I would hope that the possibility of replacing a wheel bearing isn't high on the concern list. They aren't all that expensive. Couple hundred bucks. I will likely do mine as preventative.



Last, can you think of any other drawback besides the turning radius issue?

From the best that my butt can tell you the difference in steering is likely the most notable. Clearance to the fender and under full lock-to-lock can also be impacted depending on ride height and other factors. Case by case.

In theory... well, to the very best of my knowledge, the other problem is that once you make such changes- the center of the tire contact patch is not necessarily at the center of the tire anymore. It depends on rim offset. Thus, adding a +15mm spacer is not necessarily equivalent to swapping to a wheel with 15mm lower offset... the final vector forces are further a function of the back-spacing of the specific wheel design for the rim width too.

The spindle/upright is the most important piece, and once you change it and the suspension arc in relation to the instant center it can cause a bump camber change.

Source: Chapter 6 Race Car Engineering:
http://www.rowleyrace.com/PDF/Chapter_6_Excerpt.pdf



Do you agree that the offset increase/decrease should be maintained front and rear on a stock suspension?

In principle, yes. Their are better ways of adjusting that don't have as drastic negative consequences.



I know you can start playing once you start changing other things that change under/over steer.

The basic idea is you get yourself in the right ball park with race car design, then you tweak (sway bars, pressures, aero, etc...) from there.
 
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