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- 14 April 2002
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From a crash test report:
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030226/4898576s.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030226/4898576s.htm
Sometimes it is scary to drive an NSX
- Thread starter matteni
- Start date
This report finally shows what I've been saying all a long. I thought it was sad when the Insurance institute gave the new Bug a high rating. There's no way that car is safe against a heavier vehicle, only brick walls. Yet they gave most trucks and SUV’s poor ratings, against their brick wall, and didn’t mention what an SUV does to a car
Their testing has been flawed all along. But, all the lemmings in this country bought in to it(cause they saw it on 20/20
) Now we have heavier/safer SUV's, and cars are even less safe.
What's the answer? Tough one. We can't all keep driving bigger vehicles, just to be safer
------------------
01' NSX-T Silverstone
02' Chevy Avalanche 1500
00' Suzuki Hayabusa GSX1300
02' Honda VTX-1800
02' Aprilia Falco SL1000
Their testing has been flawed all along. But, all the lemmings in this country bought in to it(cause they saw it on 20/20
What's the answer? Tough one. We can't all keep driving bigger vehicles, just to be safer
------------------
01' NSX-T Silverstone
02' Chevy Avalanche 1500
00' Suzuki Hayabusa GSX1300
02' Honda VTX-1800
02' Aprilia Falco SL1000
Well, as painful as it's going to be, the answer is to limit the weight and size of SUVs and trucks. This will save fuel as well as injury to small car passengers.
There's no reason that an average joe needs to drive a H2 OR Ford Excursion to work. For safety and fuel economy reasons they should be incented to drive more fuel efficient vehicles...
There's no reason that an average joe needs to drive a H2 OR Ford Excursion to work. For safety and fuel economy reasons they should be incented to drive more fuel efficient vehicles...
Originally posted by JohnC:
This report finally shows what I've been saying all a long. I thought it was sad when the Insurance institute gave the new Bug a high rating. There's no way that car is safe against a heavier vehicle, only brick walls. Yet they gave most trucks and SUV’s poor ratings, against their brick wall, and didn’t mention what an SUV does to a car
Their testing has been flawed all along. But, all the lemmings in this country bought in to it(cause they saw it on 20/20) Now we have heavier/safer SUV's, and cars are even less safe.
What's the answer? Tough one. We can't all keep driving bigger vehicles, just to be safer
Don't EVEN get me started or I'll ruin my whole night, and never be allowed to post here again!
Seriously though, how about taxing vehicles based on weight (purchase, registration, wherever)? All else being equal, wouldn't fuel economy, safety, and size all tend to follow behind weight? It's not possible to "fix" the people who buy these things. Those problems have been around since the dawn of mankind. And the taxes would have to be substantial, because lots of fools have money.
Actually, this would probably have to be attacked just like the CAFE standards only for weight instead of fuel economy; at the manufacturer level.
- Richard
Seriously though, how about taxing vehicles based on weight (purchase, registration, wherever)? All else being equal, wouldn't fuel economy, safety, and size all tend to follow behind weight? It's not possible to "fix" the people who buy these things. Those problems have been around since the dawn of mankind. And the taxes would have to be substantial, because lots of fools have money.
Actually, this would probably have to be attacked just like the CAFE standards only for weight instead of fuel economy; at the manufacturer level.
- Richard
I HATE SUVs, I HATE SUVs, I HATE SUVs, I HATE SUVs, I HATE SUVs, I HATE SUVs, I HATE SUVs,I HATE SUVs and the people who justify driving them because they are safer.
I'm gonna buy a frikking 18 wheeler and say that I'm the king of the road. I'll break anyone!!
I HATE SUVs. I can't even start my arguments, I'm so angry right now.
I'm gonna buy a frikking 18 wheeler and say that I'm the king of the road. I'll break anyone!!
I HATE SUVs. I can't even start my arguments, I'm so angry right now.
Thats one reason I drive what I do. Aside from 4250-4450lbs on the road, they're built like tanks. I see SUVs that weigh in at 5k plus the driver and laugh at the concept they're twice my size and "safer."
I've seen a sandwich (Lexus at 50mph rear ended Jag, which slammed into an Accord, both Jag and Accord stopped at a light, Jag drove away, other two cars front and rear respectively completely demolished, Jag had some minor bodywork needed).
Also saw some sort of 4 door import in South Africa make a right turn in front of a Jag going 40mph and the import bounced 21 feet and did almost a 180 from the point of impact. Imports front end totally destroyed, engine and axle, front wheels horizontal with the ground, nothing left at all. Jag had its rad/fan damaged, bumper crinkled, 3 headlights smashed, and the hood crinkled a bit. Otherwise just fine.
Scary what the critics say, insurance companies say, and people buy into.
A Tahoe swerved in front of me I nearly hit it about a year ago, and my passenger freaked out. I said, how much do you think Tahoe and driver weigh? Passenger said, just over 5k maybe. I said, you and me and the car, we're 4500lbs, 1/2 as high, a couple feet shorter and with one of the highest safety ratings on the road (and very high repair bills to boot). They have the short end of the stick. Believe me.
As we were at the long stop light, I told my passenger what I've seen these cars get into. Suddenly, SUVs didn't seem so threatening to him.
Cut me off, rear end me, I dare 'em. My friend Tim who came on the Ortega run was rear-ended by a Miata of all things due to rainy weather at a stop light. His rear bumper cracked, exhaust jumped off pegs, poor Miata was totalled. He called me right after it happend actually laughing at the damage.. before it sunk in and he got pissed... hahahaha!
There's always something bigger and safer, or something that doesn't take side impacts well. The false illusion, "I'm in an Excursion/big SUV/etc, get out of my way" just pisses me off as it creates sloppy drivers off half-truths and safety hype.
Sunny
I've seen a sandwich (Lexus at 50mph rear ended Jag, which slammed into an Accord, both Jag and Accord stopped at a light, Jag drove away, other two cars front and rear respectively completely demolished, Jag had some minor bodywork needed).
Also saw some sort of 4 door import in South Africa make a right turn in front of a Jag going 40mph and the import bounced 21 feet and did almost a 180 from the point of impact. Imports front end totally destroyed, engine and axle, front wheels horizontal with the ground, nothing left at all. Jag had its rad/fan damaged, bumper crinkled, 3 headlights smashed, and the hood crinkled a bit. Otherwise just fine.
Scary what the critics say, insurance companies say, and people buy into.
A Tahoe swerved in front of me I nearly hit it about a year ago, and my passenger freaked out. I said, how much do you think Tahoe and driver weigh? Passenger said, just over 5k maybe. I said, you and me and the car, we're 4500lbs, 1/2 as high, a couple feet shorter and with one of the highest safety ratings on the road (and very high repair bills to boot). They have the short end of the stick. Believe me.
As we were at the long stop light, I told my passenger what I've seen these cars get into. Suddenly, SUVs didn't seem so threatening to him.
Cut me off, rear end me, I dare 'em. My friend Tim who came on the Ortega run was rear-ended by a Miata of all things due to rainy weather at a stop light. His rear bumper cracked, exhaust jumped off pegs, poor Miata was totalled. He called me right after it happend actually laughing at the damage.. before it sunk in and he got pissed... hahahaha!
There's always something bigger and safer, or something that doesn't take side impacts well. The false illusion, "I'm in an Excursion/big SUV/etc, get out of my way" just pisses me off as it creates sloppy drivers off half-truths and safety hype.
Sunny
Keep in mind that at lot of these new cars deform the way they do to absorb the impact... which could be a good and bad thing...
Bad thing, these people go back on the road.
The reality is, a mixed blessing. When I was nearly involved in a 3 car wreck to make it a 4 car wreck, an old Fleetwood totally wrecked two cars, one in the front of it and in the rear. The front was a poor Geo and the rear car was a literally brand new Altima months old that smashed into the Fleetwood. The little old 70-ish lady slowly got out of her car and shuffled over to the Geo she hit and bounced into my lane (who I easily avoided hitting but I couldn't swerve because of thick traffic, just stopped, reported the accident, gave my card from my sunroof to the Geo that was hit, and people actually let me change lanes, blinker and everything! The fleetwood was completely none the worse for wear but some bumper scratches on the chrome.
Can we say, law of vehicular mass on that one? Does a Fleetwood have crumple zones? No, just a mass of metal, all over, doing many different things. Today's plastic mobiles covered in aluminium may be more safe, but I sure haven't seen it in the accidents I've witnessed.
Sunny
The reality is, a mixed blessing. When I was nearly involved in a 3 car wreck to make it a 4 car wreck, an old Fleetwood totally wrecked two cars, one in the front of it and in the rear. The front was a poor Geo and the rear car was a literally brand new Altima months old that smashed into the Fleetwood. The little old 70-ish lady slowly got out of her car and shuffled over to the Geo she hit and bounced into my lane (who I easily avoided hitting but I couldn't swerve because of thick traffic, just stopped, reported the accident, gave my card from my sunroof to the Geo that was hit, and people actually let me change lanes, blinker and everything! The fleetwood was completely none the worse for wear but some bumper scratches on the chrome.
Can we say, law of vehicular mass on that one? Does a Fleetwood have crumple zones? No, just a mass of metal, all over, doing many different things. Today's plastic mobiles covered in aluminium may be more safe, but I sure haven't seen it in the accidents I've witnessed.
Sunny
Maybe SUV-fever will abate as potential purchases switch to "cross over" vehicles. Although some of these are SUV-like, many of them don't have the heft and over-bearing presence that most SUV's have today.
From today's WSJ:
New Wave of 'Crossover' Cars Targets SUV-Wary Consumers
By SHOLNN FREEMAN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
The auto industry has a plan to keep drivers buying SUVS: disguising them.
The Chrysler Pacifica, which hits showrooms this month, is the first of a new generation of family-size "crossover" models -- vehicles that cut and paste various car, SUV and minivan features. The Pacifica, for example, has the front end of a car and the back end of a minivan.
To date, most of the smaller, more agile crossovers have been expensive imports, like the Lexus RX 300. But now Chrysler, which launched the modern minivan boom two decades ago, is aiming at mainstream soccer moms with its new Pacifica, which will sell for between $36,000 and $40,000.
Japanese and European auto makers are also storming the fast-growing segment. Nissan Motor Corp. recently launched two curvy new crossovers, including the Murano. It is billed as perfect for "on road adventures" -- a far cry from the macho mudflinging that traditional SUV drivers aspired to. Other smaller crossovers include Honda Motor's boxy Element and the Saturn Vue from General Motors Corp.
Ford Motor Co. is expected to launch a crossover wagon called the Freestyle next year, which, in early sketches, bears some resemblance to a traditional wagon. GM is similarly overhauling its lineup of minivans -- making them wider and giving them regular hinge doors instead of sliding doors -- to increase the crossover appeal.
Crossovers are designed to blend the ride and handling of cars with the people- and cargo-carrying capacity of SUVs. A conventional SUV, such as a Chevrolet TrailBlazer, has a body bolted to a rigid truck frame. But crossovers are manufactured like cars -- with the floor, frame and upper body designed as a single unit. Typically, this leads to a lighter vehicle with a lower center of gravity, which makes it less likely to roll over. Still, government testing hasn't been done yet on many of the new crossovers.
Safety is a big potential selling point. Because these models are built lower to the ground, they "match up" better with other cars on the road. In the past, the height difference between SUVs and cars has resulted in greater damage being done to cars in crashes with SUVs.
The new generation of crossovers also tend to be lighter and more fuel-efficient than large SUVs. But these are hardly electric cars. The mileage ranges from about 15 to 20 in the city, still far less than you'd get in, say, a Honda Accord.
These modifications are part of an effort to sell SUVs to people who have been turned off by them for one reason or another, from the roughness of the ride to the poor gas mileage. The industry is experimenting with ways to preserve the features and appearance of a truck-based SUV, while addressing these other sticking points. In doing so, the crossovers are jumping into the vacuum left by the demise of large family station wagons, which hauled kids and groceries through the suburbs of the 1960s and 1970s.
Offensive to Purists?
The Pacifica will be an important test of whether substantial numbers of mainstream buyers are ready to embrace something quite different from a conventional minivan or SUV.
But in staking out a middle ground between cars and trucks, car makers risk offending the purists. The diehard SUV owner, for example, may not go for the Pacifica's low-to-the-ground, car-like stance -- or the fact that it can't tow a big camper or go mucking around off road the way a four-wheel-drive truck could. For fans of the sedan, the Pacifica could seem too big and bulky.
Unlike most of the current family-size crossover SUVs on the market, such as the Toyota Highlander or the Honda Pilot, the Pacifica doesn't look anything like a conventional SUV. The back, with a third row of seats, is strictly station wagon. Chrysler hopes to sell at least 100,000 Pacificas a year.
Pushing crossovers will require some deft footwork from auto makers. The Big Three, and Japan's Toyota Motor and Nissan, all plan to keep selling lots of large, truck-based SUVs. Of the 4.1 million SUVs sold last year, 3.4 million were based on trucks, according to industry consultant Art Spinella of CNW Marketing Research Inc. in Bandon, Ore.
But while conventional SUVs dominate in volume, crossover sales are growing much faster. They climbed 23% last year from 2001, according to Ward's Automotive Reports. Ward's expects crossovers to surpass minivans in sales this year.
Women, Mr. Spinella says, deserve much of the credit for this shift. In the 1990s, they began switching their families to SUVs from minivans. But many were unhappy with the harsh ride and concerned by growing questions about the safety of truck-based SUVs. Auto makers read the trends, and began putting more effort into crossovers. "It became critical to get the truck ride out of there," Mr. Spinella says.
But the auto makers risk undermining their highly profitable SUV franchises if they overplay the advantages of crossovers. The stakes are particularly high for Chrysler, the DaimlerChrysler unit, which has been struggling to maintain market share as sales of its minivans, Jeeps and cars have stagnated.
Knee Air Bags
For families, safety is by far the top concern, and the Pacifica is packed with safety hardware. It will be one of the few vehicles on sale with standard side-curtain air bags in all three rows of seats. (These air bags are at the head level, and protect passengers in the event of a rollover.) It also has a small air bag under the steering column to protect driver's knees, a safety feature few other vehicles of any kind have right now.
Marketers say one reason for the popularity of SUVs is that the burly trucks give occupants a sense of invulnerability. To produce the same effect in the lower-riding Pacifica, designers say they used proportionally less glass and more sheet metal.
Chrysler is targeting women buyers in TV ads that feature pop star Celine Dion. You won't see the diva behind the wheel taking on swervy mountain roads. In the ad, Ms. Dion calmly practices music in the passenger seat as the vehicle powers through a rainstorm.
Regards.
[This message has been edited by NSXaholic (edited 04 March 2003).]
From today's WSJ:
New Wave of 'Crossover' Cars Targets SUV-Wary Consumers
By SHOLNN FREEMAN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
The auto industry has a plan to keep drivers buying SUVS: disguising them.
The Chrysler Pacifica, which hits showrooms this month, is the first of a new generation of family-size "crossover" models -- vehicles that cut and paste various car, SUV and minivan features. The Pacifica, for example, has the front end of a car and the back end of a minivan.
To date, most of the smaller, more agile crossovers have been expensive imports, like the Lexus RX 300. But now Chrysler, which launched the modern minivan boom two decades ago, is aiming at mainstream soccer moms with its new Pacifica, which will sell for between $36,000 and $40,000.
Japanese and European auto makers are also storming the fast-growing segment. Nissan Motor Corp. recently launched two curvy new crossovers, including the Murano. It is billed as perfect for "on road adventures" -- a far cry from the macho mudflinging that traditional SUV drivers aspired to. Other smaller crossovers include Honda Motor's boxy Element and the Saturn Vue from General Motors Corp.
Ford Motor Co. is expected to launch a crossover wagon called the Freestyle next year, which, in early sketches, bears some resemblance to a traditional wagon. GM is similarly overhauling its lineup of minivans -- making them wider and giving them regular hinge doors instead of sliding doors -- to increase the crossover appeal.
Crossovers are designed to blend the ride and handling of cars with the people- and cargo-carrying capacity of SUVs. A conventional SUV, such as a Chevrolet TrailBlazer, has a body bolted to a rigid truck frame. But crossovers are manufactured like cars -- with the floor, frame and upper body designed as a single unit. Typically, this leads to a lighter vehicle with a lower center of gravity, which makes it less likely to roll over. Still, government testing hasn't been done yet on many of the new crossovers.
Safety is a big potential selling point. Because these models are built lower to the ground, they "match up" better with other cars on the road. In the past, the height difference between SUVs and cars has resulted in greater damage being done to cars in crashes with SUVs.
The new generation of crossovers also tend to be lighter and more fuel-efficient than large SUVs. But these are hardly electric cars. The mileage ranges from about 15 to 20 in the city, still far less than you'd get in, say, a Honda Accord.
These modifications are part of an effort to sell SUVs to people who have been turned off by them for one reason or another, from the roughness of the ride to the poor gas mileage. The industry is experimenting with ways to preserve the features and appearance of a truck-based SUV, while addressing these other sticking points. In doing so, the crossovers are jumping into the vacuum left by the demise of large family station wagons, which hauled kids and groceries through the suburbs of the 1960s and 1970s.
Offensive to Purists?
The Pacifica will be an important test of whether substantial numbers of mainstream buyers are ready to embrace something quite different from a conventional minivan or SUV.
But in staking out a middle ground between cars and trucks, car makers risk offending the purists. The diehard SUV owner, for example, may not go for the Pacifica's low-to-the-ground, car-like stance -- or the fact that it can't tow a big camper or go mucking around off road the way a four-wheel-drive truck could. For fans of the sedan, the Pacifica could seem too big and bulky.
Unlike most of the current family-size crossover SUVs on the market, such as the Toyota Highlander or the Honda Pilot, the Pacifica doesn't look anything like a conventional SUV. The back, with a third row of seats, is strictly station wagon. Chrysler hopes to sell at least 100,000 Pacificas a year.
Pushing crossovers will require some deft footwork from auto makers. The Big Three, and Japan's Toyota Motor and Nissan, all plan to keep selling lots of large, truck-based SUVs. Of the 4.1 million SUVs sold last year, 3.4 million were based on trucks, according to industry consultant Art Spinella of CNW Marketing Research Inc. in Bandon, Ore.
But while conventional SUVs dominate in volume, crossover sales are growing much faster. They climbed 23% last year from 2001, according to Ward's Automotive Reports. Ward's expects crossovers to surpass minivans in sales this year.
Women, Mr. Spinella says, deserve much of the credit for this shift. In the 1990s, they began switching their families to SUVs from minivans. But many were unhappy with the harsh ride and concerned by growing questions about the safety of truck-based SUVs. Auto makers read the trends, and began putting more effort into crossovers. "It became critical to get the truck ride out of there," Mr. Spinella says.
But the auto makers risk undermining their highly profitable SUV franchises if they overplay the advantages of crossovers. The stakes are particularly high for Chrysler, the DaimlerChrysler unit, which has been struggling to maintain market share as sales of its minivans, Jeeps and cars have stagnated.
Knee Air Bags
For families, safety is by far the top concern, and the Pacifica is packed with safety hardware. It will be one of the few vehicles on sale with standard side-curtain air bags in all three rows of seats. (These air bags are at the head level, and protect passengers in the event of a rollover.) It also has a small air bag under the steering column to protect driver's knees, a safety feature few other vehicles of any kind have right now.
Marketers say one reason for the popularity of SUVs is that the burly trucks give occupants a sense of invulnerability. To produce the same effect in the lower-riding Pacifica, designers say they used proportionally less glass and more sheet metal.
Chrysler is targeting women buyers in TV ads that feature pop star Celine Dion. You won't see the diva behind the wheel taking on swervy mountain roads. In the ad, Ms. Dion calmly practices music in the passenger seat as the vehicle powers through a rainstorm.
Regards.
[This message has been edited by NSXaholic (edited 04 March 2003).]
I knew a guy years ago who had size-inferiority complex. He was a short little guy, and always wanted to buy the biggest vehicle he can to compensate for his insecurities.
He talked about buying a big 'ol SUV and adding those guard railing things in the front bumper to intimidate other motorists. He even went as far as saying he was going to fill those railings with concrete so that they hold up better in a collision.
Truly sickening.
He talked about buying a big 'ol SUV and adding those guard railing things in the front bumper to intimidate other motorists. He even went as far as saying he was going to fill those railings with concrete so that they hold up better in a collision.
Truly sickening.
Might reduce slightly those ever-so-high Miles Per Gallon numbers.
Regards.
