Snopes full of crap?

[Eric5273]

What good are the "debunkers" when sometimes they are debunked themselves:

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cach...aden+family+9/11+flights+false&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

notice how it says:

"Status: False"

Then, here are two recent articles on the subject:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/p...00&en=808be44ae0b6c3aa&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

http://www.edinburghnews.com/index.cfm?id=971322003

Now Snopes has changed the original page and no longer says it is false.

 

[flaminio]

Nope

I don't see the problem. The claim that the bin Laden family was allowed to fly around post 9/11 while everyone else was grounded is an extraordinary claim -- and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Such evidence was not available at the time -- just hearsay and rumors. Once the evidence became available, Snopes owned up to it and updated their page.

If you thought that Snopes was infallible, then perhaps this may have disillusioned you. They're human just like anyone else, with access to the same resources as anyone.

 

[Eric5273]

Re: Nope

extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Such evidence was not available at the time -- just hearsay and rumors.

Evidence was available "at the time". Employees of a few of the airports said they witnessed the plane land, get boarded, and then take off.

You do not mean "extraordinary evidence" is required. You mean you want to hear the guilty parties confess. This "new" evidence is exactly that.....one of the White House staff admitted the flight did happen.

So basically you are saying that you will never believe the government is guilty of "conspiracy" unless they actually confess.

(Sorry.........I don't mean to jump on you, but this is the kind of thing that annoys me. Blind faith in what the government says even when evidence exists to the contrary)

 

[flaminio]

You've got it all wrong.

I'm no proponent of blind faith devotion to the government -- indeed, I put very little trust in what the government tells me. I'm just not going to jump on every conspiracy theory that comes along. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes the government tells the truth. When you've got a few airport workers versus the government, I'm more likely to call it a toss-up and move on. Snopes leaned a little more toward the official story, and called the incident false. I wouldn't've, but I don't fault them for doing so.

They have since recanted. What do you think of the updated page?

 

[Eric5273]

Re: You've got it all wrong.

They have since recanted. What do you think of the updated page?

I took a quick glance, but I'm a bit confused by what they said. They appear to not be taking a firm stance on the subject. All information seems to say the flight took place on September 13th, but they seem to think differently, yet they don't say why.

 

[flaminio]

Re: Re: You've got it all wrong.

I took a quick glance, but I'm a bit confused by what they said. They appear to not be taking a firm stance on the subject. All information seems to say the flight took place on September 13th, but they seem to think differently, yet they don't say why.

They don't think differently at all: indeed, they say so right at the top of the page:

In the two days immediately following the September 11 terrorist attacks on America, the U.S. government allowed bin Laden family members to fly within the country during a general ban on air travel: True.

The new page is rather long, and it seems like half of it is apologizing to Michael Moore, but they do say now that the bin Laden family and other Saudis were shuttled around while the rest of America was grounded.

However, it is not the case that these folk were flown out of the country -- that happened later, after normal air traffic resumed. Nor does it appear to be the case that these flights were in secret. While no one was broadcasting to the media that these flights were taking place, it wasn't being covered up either.

I tend to be a skeptic by nature, and so anytime the government or conspiracy theorist presents some information, I want to see evidence.

 

[Eric5273]

Re: Re: Re: You've got it all wrong.

The new page is rather long, and it seems like half of it is apologizing to Michael Moore, but they do say now that the bin Laden family and other Saudis were shuttled around while the rest of America was grounded.

However, it is not the case that these folk were flown out of the country -- that happened later, after normal air traffic resumed.

Well, sort of. I believe the final flight back to Saudi Arabia left on September 13th. While the air-traffic ban had been lifted at this point, it was only for commercial vehicles and continuing flights. New passenger flights did not resume until September 14th.

Nor does it appear to be the case that these flights were in secret. While no one was broadcasting to the media that these flights were taking place, it wasn't being covered up either.

You are correct. But this is true for most government "conspiracies". They usually do not deny anything. They usually just do not respond to the allegations at all.

A good example of this, and something that was discussed last month in another thread, was that 7 of the 19 "9/11 hijackers" listed on the FBI's website are still alive. These people have turned up alive in other countries around the world. This was reported by the Los Angeles Times as well as many European newspapers. The BBC even interviewed a couple of them.

This has never been "covered up". However, the FBI has never responded to the issue. No reporter has ever asked a question about this at any of the FBI press conferences and the FBI has not changed the photos or names at their website. Yet it is obvious that 7 of the people pictured at their website, with those names and those identities are still alive.

I tend to be a skeptic by nature, and so anytime the government or conspiracy theorist presents some information, I want to see evidence.

I have a question for you. Suppose that nobody from within the White House had come forward and admitted this flight existed. Then what evidence would you have wanted to see that this flight existed? Give an example of something that would have convinced you.

 

[MAJOR STONER]

Always good to put a face with the name...

 

[Eric5273]

Or better yet, maybe he never has despised American products and culture and maybe he only despises American foreign policy in the Middle East. Just maybe....

 

[flaminio]

Good question.

I have a question for you. Suppose that nobody from within the White House had come forward and admitted this flight existed. Then what evidence would you have wanted to see that this flight existed? Give an example of something that would have convinced you.

Good question. Well, firstly -- It wasn't the White House that convinced me that these flights did indeed take place. Also, I had not been under the impression that these flights had not taken place. Indeed, this entire incident had been off my radar for quite a while, until your post. Prior to that time, I had not come to a conclusion about the flights. There simply was not sufficient credible information to make a decision one way or the other.

So, what would have convinced me? Certainly the postings of random people on message boards carries very little weight. Unnamed airport employees also don't do much for me. I guess what I would have convinced me would be a Woodward/Bernstein kind of exposé on the incident, with verifiable, corroborating evidence presented.

But like I said -- I haven't really been paying much attention to this particular incident, so this may have already been presented and I didn't notice it.

 

[Eric5273]

Fair enough.

I had believed it because back in October 2001, I heard a couple of the airport employees interviewed on Pacifica (PBS) radio. I think the Village Voice also wrote a couple articles on this. However, the mainstream press stayed clear of the subject, as they usually do with similar controversial subjects.

The nature of the mainstream press has changed a lot since the mid-1970s. Today, it's doubtful a Woodward/Bernstein type of investigation would ever see the light of day in the mainstream press.