snap ring sorted?

[jaytip nsx]

my question is this, if the problem has been sorted out by a previous owner,would the transmission have the same number on it,and if so how would i know if the problem has been sorted.



coming back to the above point,i dont want to be driving around becoming paranoid that it may start to go pear shaped.what i want to know is,is there any way to check that the casing has been changed(short of taking the gearbox apart that is).

[This message has been edited by jaytip nsx (edited 26 February 2003).]

 

[Russ]

Originally posted by jaytip nsx:
...if the problem has been sorted out by a previous owner,would the transmission have the same number on it

Possibly. The trans case half bearing the trans s/n label is not the one replaced when fixing the snap ring problem.

That said, I know of at least one person who has the opposite situation. His original trans was not in the snap range. He then bought a rebuilt short gear trans which has a snap ring s/n yet had a new trans case, meaning the snap problem was fixed. Actually the rebuilt trans has other problems which aren't relevant here.

So in certain instances, additional documentation will be needed to establish whether any given trans within the s/n range was fixed.


------------------
Russ
'91 black/black

[This message has been edited by Russ (edited 23 February 2003).]

 

[D'Ecosse]

Originally posted by jaytip nsx:
... my car has had a lot of owners and is currently on 106,000 miles.the gearstick is not moving at all when accelerating/decelerating in first or second gear....

James, at 106K if it exhibits no symptoms, it has most likely either been already fixed or does not have the issue to begin with - just because it's in the range doesn't necessarily mean it will be a problem tranny.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by D'Ecosse:
at 106K if it exhibits no symptoms, it has most likely either been already fixed or does not have the issue to begin with

This is not true. The snap ring can fail at any time, and it's possible that it can last until well over 106K miles before failing (as has been reported in two separate incidents, one in the FAQ and one on Prime).

Originally posted by D'Ecosse:
just because it's in the range doesn't necessarily mean it will be a problem tranny.

This part is true.

Mark Basch has provided excellent advice here.

If I had a car in the snap ring range, on which I have no evidence that the snap ring and upper transmission case had been replaced, I would read about the symptoms of a broken snap ring, but just keep driving it. If it showed symptoms of snap ring failure, I would get it fixed immediately; otherwise, I would wait until it needed transmission work (such as for a clutch replacement or a gearing mod), and I would replace the snap ring and upper transmission case at that time. The parts should run around $1500. The labor to open up the transmission runs around $1000 but if you are doing it when you need transmission work anyway, you don't have to pay much more to change the snap ring and case at the same time as your other tranny work.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 23 February 2003).]

 

[PHOEN$X]

Excellent advice from nsxtasy, as usual. I agree completely, no sense in replacing what may be a perfectly fine tranny now. Just be acutely aware of the symptoms, and act immediately if you notice problems. Otherwise, enjoy your NSX!

 

[D'Ecosse]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by D'Ecosse:
at 106K if it exhibits no symptoms, it has most likely either been already fixed or does not have the issue to begin with
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is not true. The snap ring can fail at any time, and it's possible that it can last until well over 106K miles before failing (as has been reported in two separate incidents, one in the FAQ and one on Prime).

[/B]

The operable part of my statement was "most likely" - I did not say never. Your responses are always helpful nsxtasy but sometimes your reference to quotes deduce a different analysis to what is stated.
The FAQ appears to agree with me:

from the FAQ:
I sent many private posts to people who asked if they should have the update (transmission case) done to their car. My answer was if there are a lot of hard miles on your car and you have not had a problem you probably won't have a problem. If you don't want someone opening your transmission then don't worry about it.

Again: Not all the transmissions in the range will have a problem.

Indeed, your response quotes 2 incidents of >106K miles - versus how many that failed in much shorter time?
The FAQ illustrates only one of 13 at > 85K miles. If we believe this to be an accurate run-rate, then < 8% of the failures reported in the study are > 100K miles, & maybe 15% of all range cars have the failure, making for ~1% total of range cars of miles greater than 100K miles before failure is a reasonable determination. That for me equates to the "most likely" conclusion I suggested.
Additionally, based on James report of zero symptoms @that milage I stand by my original statement in that it most likely will not see the problem.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by D'Ecosse:
The FAQ illustrates only one of 13 at > 85K miles. If we believe this to be an accurate run-rate, then < 8% of the failures reported in the study are > 100K miles

But what percentage of miles are driven at > 85K miles? A very small percentage! We know for sure that that more than half of all '91-92 NSXs still have not reached that level of mileage, which is well above the average figure of 5K miles/year. For all we know, high-mileage NSXs may be overrepresented among snap ring failures, so that NSXs being driven at that mileage could be more likely to have the snap ring fail than those being driven at a lower mileage.

Also, a sample of 13 failures - even after you ever-so-conveniently omit the report at 113K miles reported recently - is simply not statistically conclusive. It's too small a sample.

Originally posted by D'Ecosse:
Additionally, based on James report of zero symptoms @that milage I stand by my original statement in that it most likely will not see the problem.

You have ZERO basis for that conclusion. Sure, it's possible that it will not see the problem, just like it's possible that a low-mileage NSX in the snap ring range will not see the problem.

I think your statement is giving James bad advice by making the false claim that a snap ring repair is less likely to occur at a high mileage than a low mileage. There's no such thing as being "out of the woods" after 106K miles as you imply. The simple fact is, it can (and does) occur at any mileage.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 23 February 2003).]

 

[4AU4LIFE]

I too have a car smack in the middle of the snap ring range. Lucky for me it hasn't shown any of the tale tell signs.

------------------
92 RED/BLACK 5-SPEED

 

[D'Ecosse]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:

I think your statement is giving James bad advice by making the false claim that a snap ring repair is less likely to occur at a high mileage than a low mileage. There's no such thing as being "out of the woods" after 106K miles as you imply.

Once again you are making out that a double negative = a positive statement.
I NEVER said he was "out of the woods", did not even imply it - why are you determined to suggest otherwise? - "Less likely" does not equal "never" in my UK based English & I'm pretty sure it doesn't in US based English either.
Less likely is justified by the statistical sample - regardless of how small.
I "conveniently" ignored the 113K car because it was not included in the FAQ report - just as I "conveniently" ignored all the other cars less than that mileage that were also not included in the FAQ report. That is a statistical sample at a given time & to add one more to what aids your interpretation has no validity unless you also include all others similarly reported after that fact. OK - so you now know of 2 cars at that milage with the problem - how many total cars have been repaired for the problem? I'm quite willing to use those numbers as the basis for statistical comparison if you care to publish those.
I believe you are also admonishing the FAQ, in this case, which appears (as-quoted) to agree with me - perhaps you should advise that it be changed to reflect your views.

p.s. the other part that you keep ignoring is that he exhibits none of the symptoms currently at 106K miles which further suggests he is "less likely" to have a problem. It is reasonable to expect that erosion over an extended period may exacerbate the problem, but by 100K miles one would expect that it would surface under those conditions

[This message has been edited by D'Ecosse (edited 23 February 2003).]

 

[Periokid]

Originally posted by Russ:
Possibly. The trans case half bearing the trans s/n label is not the one replaced when fixing the snap ring problem.

That said, I know of at least one person who has the opposite situation. His original trans was not in the snap range. He then bought a rebuilt short gear trans which has a snap ring s/n yet had a new trans case, meaning the snap problem was fixed. Actually the rebuilt trans has other problems which aren't relevant here.

So in certain instances, additional documentation will be needed to establish whether any given trans within the s/n range was fixed.

Russ, I wonder who's transmission you are writing about

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by D'Ecosse:
p.s. the other part that you keep ignoring is that he exhibits none of the symptoms currently at 106K miles which further suggests he is "less likely" to have a problem. It is reasonable to expect that erosion over an extended period may exacerbate the problem, but by 100K miles one would expect that it would surface under those conditions

Absolutely wrong. There was no indication at 106K that there was any problem with the snap rings that failed at 113K and at 116K miles. Just because there is no indication at 106K does NOT imply that the snap ring cannot fail at higher mileages.

 

[Hideki]

jaytip, my former '92 NSX had a snap ring failure at 45k miles. It suddenly happened without any pre-symptoms indeed. Since I had a mechanical breakdown insurance coverage, whole repair cost was 100% covered by insurance co. If your insurance doesn't cover transmission failure and you would like to feel "piece of mind", you may want to replace the ring as soon as you can as it can happen any mileage. Just an opinion...

 

[gheba_nsx]

Same to me. My previous NSX failed at about 40k miles without ANY sign at all..

 

[matteni]

I think the point is that if the moment you witness the failure - you get it fixed - you will not have to replace the entire transmission (per Mark B's post).

No one who understands the problem is saying you are going to get a lot of warning - just that fixing it ahead of time or after the fact will cost the same amount IF you follow Marks suggestions.

 

[mother goose]

My snap ring failed after 132,000 km (82,500 miles), and it was 5 years on the road at the time.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by matteni:
I think the point is that if the moment you witness the failure - you get it fixed - you will not have to replace the entire transmission (per Mark B's post).

No one who understands the problem is saying you are going to get a lot of warning - just that fixing it ahead of time or after the fact will cost the same amount IF you follow Marks suggestions.

That's exactly right, Nick.

Be aware of the symptoms of snap ring failure - the shift knob becomes loose and wobbly, for example. If that happens, get it to your mechanic right away; don't keep driving it.

If you haven't been driving on it a while in that condition, the cost to fix it should be around $2500, which includes $1000 in labor to open the transmission up, and $1500 in parts for the snap ring and the upper transmission case.

If you have a car in the snap ring range which has never had the snap ring and upper transmission case replaced, you really have three different courses of action to choose from:

1. You could repair it immediately, even without any symptoms showing or any other transmission work needed. It will cost $2500 and give you peace of mind.

2. You could watch out for symptoms of snap ring failure, and in the absence of symptoms, replace the snap ring and upper transmission case the next time you need transmission work (e.g. clutch replacement). It will cost $1500 and give you peace of mind at that point, while taking the risk that you might face the $2500 repair before you need the transmission work.

3. You could watch out for symptoms of snap ring failure, and in the absence of symptoms, not replace the snap ring and upper transmission case at all. This approach could save you the entire cost of the repair if your snap ring never fails (and it's true that many of them never will). If and when it does fail, you will face the $2500 repair bill.

One additional advantage of approaches (1) and (2) is that if and when you sell your car, it might have a higher market value by virtue of having had the snap ring issue updated.

Any of these three alternatives has its costs and risks. Any of them can make sense depending on how much risk you are willing to take and how much you are willing to pay for the peace of mind of having it repaired when it might not be necessary. It's your choice.

 

[matteni]

Good points Ken,

One more thing to consider is down time.

Depending on how much down time you are willing to accept may play into your decision.

I am in the process or replacing a worn clutch and made the decision to replace the snap ring range transmission case - and get some goodies while I am in there.

First, check with your dealer to make sure they are comfortable and competent working on an open transmission. Some will/are and some are not. Look around here and/or ask questions as there is a lot of tribal knowledge on which dealers are good.

If they are not comfortable or you want a person extremely competent working on your NSX transmission - there are vendors like Dali, SoS, ACR, and others who can check your existing transmission, replace the case, and replace any worn parts. Many of the vendors will require substantial lead times to get you a rebuilt transmission or require you to send in your transmission, wait for the repairs, and send it back. I would budget about a month in either lead time or time between sending, fixing, and returning.

So one more thing to consider. It may even make sense to have the parts "on hand" if you have made the decision to fix so that if it breaks or when your clutch goes your lead times will be greatly reduced.

Another option is a used transmission known to be outside the range - but there again you are getting used gears and syncros and there is a risk you won't like the new box and/or there are many more miles then have been reported.

------------------
Nick M

91' Red/Black with Many Mods
99' Honda Odyssey with Many Kids

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

I've been trying to put a program together to address the snap ring problem cost effectively since Honda is no longer offering repairs. By discounting the labor and parts, I am trying to offer transmissions fully rebuild (syncros, bearings, etc.) and repaired (new case half) for $2000. If you're interested, send a shout to [email protected]

That being said... we keep transmissions in stock and use an exchange program that allows you to have both transmissions in hand to minimize downtime.

Cheers,
-- Chris

------------------
Revolutionize your NSX with ScienceofSpeed
www.ScienceofSpeed.com | [email protected] | 877-863-4520

 

[jaytip nsx]

Originally posted by jaytip nsx:
-_____________________________________________
my question is this, if the problem has been sorted out by a previous owner,would the transmission have the same number on it,and if so how would i know if the problem has been sorted.



coming back to the above point,i dont want to be driving around becoming paranoid that it may start to go pear shaped.what i want to know is,is there any way to check that the casing has been changed(short of taking the gearbox apart that is).
_____________________________________________

can anybody shed some light on my dilema?

 

[tpearsall]

I'm in the same boat. My transmission has been replaced by a previous owner (no docs), but the serial number is in snap-ring range. So it may not be in an issue anymore, but I have no way of knowing.

I need to replace my clutch soon and will probably replace the related case section/snap ring at the same time. I hate to drop the cash on something that has already been taken care of (could spend that on short gears instead), but can't be sure it's fixed otherwise.

- Todd

 

[Soichiro]

Has anyone checked the TSB to make sure a technician does not mark the case in some way when repairing this problem? Thinking back to the 91 coolant hose/water pump TSB a punchmark was placed after the VIN in the engine bay when this mod was performed. The snap ring TSB may have a similar indication.

Note the engine bay VIN is located on the bulkhead behind the rear cylinder bank.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Soichiro:
Has anyone checked the TSB to make sure a technician does not mark the case in some way when repairing this problem?

Not applicable. The TSB tells the tech to replace the entire transmission, not to replace the snap ring and upper transmission case.