Shady alignment shop story, Was I in the wrong here?

[illwillem]

Hey guys, Ive been lurking the forums for a while now since buying my first NSX 4 months ago, tons of useful info, tons of threads to kill time on the slow hours at work.

Ive never felt the need to start a thread before but I feel the need to get some feedback on an experience I had this last weekend trying to get it aligned.

Having bought my 92 non targa, some wheels, decent tires, done the 60k scheduled service, got seats, exhaust and ECU- the next logical step was to realize that the fender gap was just a touch more than I wanted. Since the idea when buying the car was to replace an s2000 that would occasionally track I figured i'd kill two birds with one stone and put on some KW's V3's for the eventuality that i would want to go and flog it around the track.

I installed the KW's on a Thursday night and planned to get a temporary alignment that weekend until my REAL alignment at West End (i'd already scheduled at their first opening, which a few weeks away) After poking around the boards and getting recommends for a few places from friends I was having trouble finding a shop that I could trust word of mouth on that was also open on the weekends. After resorting to Google searches I found a place called "Flips Wesco Tires" on the BMW forums. decent things were said about them. Relatively close and also open on the weekends i though 'cool'.

So Saturday morning i drive the car for the second time since putting the suspension on its obviously toed WAY in and had out of wack camber- good thing im only driving 15 miles ...

Once at the shop I caaarreeffuulllyy pull into the driveway. I talk to the desk help guy and ask about custom alignment for my car- I had read that the toe specs were changes in 94 to be less aggressive, (I wanted factory specs for now just the earlier factory specs.) The counter help, gives me a big sigh and say "Yeah we can do stuff like that but its not reccommended." if you screw your car up with these specs and crash its not our fault." I couldnt tell if he was joking around or just an ignorant american muscle type guy. Giving him the benefit of the doubt I just kinda nodd and say "yeah, thanks ill take my chances with it". I could see where this had potential to go and wrote both the metric specs i wanted and also converted them to standard inch fractions, just in case.

a few min later as im thumbing through a magazine with one eye and keeping an eye on my car with the other i see a service tech get it my car. I jumped up and make my way outside since I ALWAYS offer to to pull my car in, or out of the bays. (suprisingly most places are relived to have me do it)

Heres where it gets interesting:

As im walking outside i watch as my car backs out--- and turns out into the main street, AWAY FROM THE BAYS. The guy totally nose dives my chin spoiler into the street out of the driveway and revs off down the street.

Pause-
I don't have children but I can imagine the tinge i had in my stomach was the same feeling my dad would get when my brother and I would do really really stupid/dangerous thing in front of him (ahem, like climbing a rotted tree over the grand canyon cliffs at age 10, ahem)

Im standing in the parking lot dumbfounded and imagining if I just watched my car get stolen right in from of my eyes. quicker that quick im back inside at the counter and say "Hey whats going on? Who's the guy that just drove off in my car and what is he doing" fat buddy at the counter says "Oh, its just a test drive"

...... ..... "A TEST DRIVE?" WTF "A TEST drive" "Im not selling the car, why the hell does this stranger need to TEST DRIVE my car?! Its an ALIGNMENT- you have specs to align too; its either WITHIN those specs or not, and you CERTAINLY DO NOT need to test drive anything before you've even laid a finger on the car." i said.

'Listen buddy relax, it procedure.' says the counter guy. I said "Ive had more than my fair share of cars, I know what I am doing, i am not some mom that you can snow here. I have NEVER in the many MANY alignments ive ever had had anyone need to test drive the car, let alone before anything was done." "And if it was 'Policy' I would have at least like to have been told and been offered to ride along or given the chance to take my car and leave"

'Well, buddy, hes just going around the block in it, not a big deal'

At this point I thought i stated my position and discomfort firmly enough- anything more with this type of guy and it would have no longer been about some stranger, as i see it, joyriding my car and turned into something more personal. I took a deep breath and gave the benefit of the doubt and walked out to the curb to listen for and sounds of far off v-tec.

I wait. I wait I wait. :frown: I wait .

TWENTY MINUETS later there is still no sign. By now my its pretty clear that hes not just gone around the block. My internal pot is now boiling over the sides. I go back inside and tell the waiting room and employees just what i've said before "I dont know this guy, I dont know why the hell he needs to drive my car that i already know is severely out of alignment- for going on 30 MIn for" "get your guy back here NOW". aside from who I guessed was a manager trying to usher me outside- i dont think it did anything but made me feel better.
Finally the tech shows back up- I can hear him bottom out on the driveway on the way in. I immediately go outside and politely ask him where the F__k he'd gone with my car for over 30 min.

Through translation to the manager and my limited Spanish he was saying something about "the freeways was blocked, and the traffic" I called bullshit and verified that there was none on my google maps iphone.. and the fact that I had JUST come from that way. i snatched my keys, walked around my car, smelled the motor and thought it best to just leave while saying "Check Yelp asshole"

Was I in the wrong here?

pic of the car

 

[shawn110975]

well i think you should have told them no-test drive allowed, I always do

then stand behind the car while the work is being done. they cant drive off with you standing behind it.

the one time I had them align my car I stood behind it while they did it. the guy doing the Alighnment is an NSX certified mech and my friend, i wasnt worried.

after an alignment a test drive is never needed I thought.

if the car is in spec then is should be fine to drive off.

good for you. I would have been pissed and F-ed more than you did thats for sure

 

[peiserg]

Hey bro, you need to chill the hell out. Like my boss told you, i was just taking it for a slow speed test drive, check for general tracking tendencies, that sort of thing.


PS. You have a *slight* steering wheel shimmy at 158 mph. Nothing major.

 

[CL65 Captain]

My alignment guy ALWAYS goes for a quick test drive to make sure the wheel is dead center when going straight as well as checking his work. But my car is the slowest car he works on, since his weekend job is chassis engineer for an ALMS team. :biggrin:

And dude, you do need to chill a little.... it's an NSX not a McLaren F1 or Zonda.

 

[omega2]

I think we would all be pretty pissed off too. When it comes to tire and alignment shops, I usually stand outside and watch them like a hawk.

 

[LJSB]

Seems clear from your post that your perceptions of this place were poor and supect from the start.

Alignments, in my opinion, are not rocket science. It is using a tool to measure record and adjust, if possible, the various component geometries to get he car into the desired specifications.
Most like mine have the specs built in and offer the the new and older specs for the NSX as well as.
The modern machines have clear instructions as to setup and procedure. if you read them and follow them it is hard to go wrong. Sadly many techs assume too much and do not do this but, if you do, it is a fairly easy job.

I will say this, if a vehicle comes to me and the customer says they need an alignment, I always ask why and what driving condition they are experiencing that troubles or concerns them. Unless the car is there to have suspension parts replaced I always test drive a vehicle BEFORE the alignment and verify the condition the customer is concerned about. There are a number of reasons to do so. To not do so is poor procedure and unprofessional IMO.

If the customer insists on coming I always ask that they drive first so I can see how they drive. I usually stop them at some point and switch spots and drive and while doing so explain what I feel and and looking for.

There is NO WAY I would let ANYONE with possibly the exception of my friend LarryB pull a car onto or off my lift. The liability is just too great and again I can't take the risk of damage to my shop, equipment or employees.

If you have specs you want I will take them and use them but if it is a great deviation from spec I will make sure you know what it may mean in terms of performance and would want to understand your expectations to make sure that the specs you're suggesting will achieve that end.

I don't want people in the bay, hanging around the doors and hovering inside or out. If it's an issue of trust then you should go elsewhere neither of us need the aggravation. However if it was plain curiosity and understanding you seek, when we are complete I will gladly invite you under the car to take the before and after/final measurement sheet and show you what, where, and how we adjusted to achieve the results.
I like doing that because this is a neat car and I like the people to see how well designed and made it is.

I have a fellow coming in with a Maserati next week and I plan on showing him how and what I used to put the 77kg of weight in both the driver's and passenger's areas and what it did to the specs. to make him understand WHY they want you to do so.

Now I always road test a car after I do an alignment and where I need to go to get all the road conditions I want to drive the car under it takes about 15 miles round trip. You don't come with me, I don't want distractions or chatter.
If everything is fine then I give YOU the car and send you on a test ride.
You come back and all is good then we are done. You pay and we go back to work on the next car.

We are busy trying to make a living not "cop a feel" on your car.

You have no business going any place that does not make you feel confident and worthy of your trust. You think you have to watch them like hawks, then you are in the wrong place.

Getting your car properly aligned should NOT be a nerve wracking event.
Sorry for your unhappy experience.

 

[Sportsmind4me]

No you weren't in the wrong here IMO. Looks like someone just couldn't resist the temptation to take a cool car out for some monkeyshine's. There is absolutely NO reason to take a car out before an alignment. What is there to be verified? You bring the car in, have the desired specs and want them to perform said work. They take the car in, align to your specs and done! This is the exact reason I only let a couple of people touch my car, too much unprofessionalism out there.:frown:

p.s. Dig the white wheels and stance. How much drop do you have with those coilovers?

 

[w4kj4k]

I dont think you're wrong. I would have been extremely angry, especially for 30 minutes? ridiculous.

 

[mlambert890]

Great write up Joe. I completely agree that you need to *only* take your car to trusted shops. Then there are no issues.

I *want* professionals to drive the car if I think something is up. I want their expert opinion. It's like saying you want the doctor to diagnose you by having a chat over the phone.

A car *is not* a child (I know OP was kidding, but its always worth saying). It was built for people to drive it. It isnt going to melt down or explode. Folks who *fix* your car very often *need* to drive your car.

As for this incident, was something up? Who knows. It seems unlikely to me, but it's always possible.

Another reason to take your car to trusted places. The places I take my car for getting work done I receive through word of mouth recommendation. I don't have to worry that a place that routinely works on $300K Ferraris and Bentleys needs a joy ride in my 12 year old Honda

And one more thing.... SO many people bring their car to "any old place" because they are too cheap to pay a premium for the RIGHT shop. Hate to say it, but thats reality. Then they go all Oprah when something doesnt pass the sniff test. Not saying thats what happened here, but hunting for the CHEAPEST price for everything and getting GREAT and professional service *very rarely* go together.

 

[Sportsmind4me]

Pbassjo- I stand corrected, I just read your post and it makes total sense now as to why one would test before alignment; an ignorant assumption on my part. It would have been good customer service though for them to explain to him why this needed to be done prior to the test drive. I have still failed to not learn something new everytime I log on here!

 

[pgilliam1]

I can't stand test drives, therefore I always specify "ABSOLUTELY NO TEST DRIVES!" I would have been pissed and they and everyone within earshot would have known it. Lesson learned - Right?

 

[s14_tat]

Seems clear from your post that your perceptions of this place were poor and supect from the start.

Alignments, in my opinion, are not rocket science. It is using a tool to measure record and adjust, if possible, the various component geometries to get he car into the desired specifications.
Most like mine have the specs built in and offer the the new and older specs for the NSX as well as.
The modern machines have clear instructions as to setup and procedure. if you read them and follow them it is hard to go wrong. Sadly many techs assume too much and do not do this but, if you do, it is a fairly easy job.

I will say this, if a vehicle comes to me and the customer says they need an alignment, I always ask why and what driving condition they are experiencing that troubles or concerns them. Unless the car is there to have suspension parts replaced I always test drive a vehicle BEFORE the alignment and verify the condition the customer is concerned about. There are a number of reasons to do so. To not do so is poor procedure and unprofessional IMO.

If the customer insists on coming I always ask that they drive first so I can see how they drive. I usually stop them at some point and switch spots and drive and while doing so explain what I feel and and looking for.

There is NO WAY I would let ANYONE with possibly the exception of my friend LarryB pull a car onto or off my lift. The liability is just too great and again I can't take the risk of damage to my shop, equipment or employees.

If you have specs you want I will take them and use them but if it is a great deviation from spec I will make sure you know what it may mean in terms of performance and would want to understand your expectations to make sure that the specs you're suggesting will achieve that end.

I don't want people in the bay, hanging around the doors and hovering inside or out. If it's an issue of trust then you should go elsewhere neither of us need the aggravation. However if it was plain curiosity and understanding you seek, when we are complete I will gladly invite you under the car to take the before and after/final measurement sheet and show you what, where, and how we adjusted to achieve the results.
I like doing that because this is a neat car and I like the people to see how well designed and made it is.

I have a fellow coming in with a Maserati next week and I plan on showing him how and what I used to put the 77kg of weight in both the driver's and passenger's areas and what it did to the specs. to make him understand WHY they want you to do so.

Now I always road test a car after I do an alignment and where I need to go to get all the road conditions I want to drive the car under it takes about 15 miles round trip. You don't come with me, I don't want distractions or chatter.
If everything is fine then I give YOU the car and send you on a test ride.
You come back and all is good then we are done. You pay and we go back to work on the next car.

We are busy trying to make a living not "cop a feel" on your car.

You have no business going any place that does not make you feel confident and worthy of your trust. You think you have to watch them like hawks, then you are in the wrong place.

Getting your car properly aligned should be a nerve wracking event.
Sorry for your unhappy experience.

I manage a shop and those are my exact procedures as well. I will always ask for the complaint and I will confirm whether the pull whether is is a tire pull, road pull or if the alignment is off. The tech will go for a road test and if the customer wants to come they can come as well.

Same with allowing a customer pulling their own car into my shop. Waaay too much of a liability. Unless I know you for a long time and know that you are familiar with my shop space, you are not going to pull your own vehicle into my shop. ( basically a friend )

Before you even start to align the car, you need to make sure there is no front end play at all or else the alignment will be pointless. You also have to test drive the car right after the alignment because like what Joe said, if the steering wheel was slightly off center when they set the toe, the car would not drive straight. The car can also still pull to one side from a tire situation so if it still does we might bring the car back in to swap the left tire to the right and see if it starts to pull the other way etc etc etc.

If you don't trust the shop, than you shouldn't be going there period.

 

[hi0npsi]

Seems clear from your post that your perceptions of this place were poor and supect from the start.

Alignments, in my opinion, are not rocket science. It is using a tool to measure record and adjust, if possible, the various component geometries to get he car into the desired specifications.
Most like mine have the specs built in and offer the the new and older specs for the NSX as well as.
The modern machines have clear instructions as to setup and procedure. if you read them and follow them it is hard to go wrong. Sadly many techs assume too much and do not do this but, if you do, it is a fairly easy job.

I will say this, if a vehicle comes to me and the customer says they need an alignment, I always ask why and what driving condition they are experiencing that troubles or concerns them. Unless the car is there to have suspension parts replaced I always test drive a vehicle BEFORE the alignment and verify the condition the customer is concerned about. There are a number of reasons to do so. To not do so is poor procedure and unprofessional IMO.

If the customer insists on coming I always ask that they drive first so I can see how they drive. I usually stop them at some point and switch spots and drive and while doing so explain what I feel and and looking for.

There is NO WAY I would let ANYONE with possibly the exception of my friend LarryB pull a car onto or off my lift. The liability is just too great and again I can't take the risk of damage to my shop, equipment or employees.

If you have specs you want I will take them and use them but if it is a great deviation from spec I will make sure you know what it may mean in terms of performance and would want to understand your expectations to make sure that the specs you're suggesting will achieve that end.

I don't want people in the bay, hanging around the doors and hovering inside or out. If it's an issue of trust then you should go elsewhere neither of us need the aggravation. However if it was plain curiosity and understanding you seek, when we are complete I will gladly invite you under the car to take the before and after/final measurement sheet and show you what, where, and how we adjusted to achieve the results.
I like doing that because this is a neat car and I like the people to see how well designed and made it is.

I have a fellow coming in with a Maserati next week and I plan on showing him how and what I used to put the 77kg of weight in both the driver's and passenger's areas and what it did to the specs. to make him understand WHY they want you to do so.

Now I always road test a car after I do an alignment and where I need to go to get all the road conditions I want to drive the car under it takes about 15 miles round trip. You don't come with me, I don't want distractions or chatter.
If everything is fine then I give YOU the car and send you on a test ride.
You come back and all is good then we are done. You pay and we go back to work on the next car.

We are busy trying to make a living not "cop a feel" on your car.

You have no business going any place that does not make you feel confident and worthy of your trust. You think you have to watch them like hawks, then you are in the wrong place.

Getting your car properly aligned should be a nerve wracking event.
Sorry for your unhappy experience.

I'm glad you took the time because I was not going to, but...THIS^^^.

If you are uncomfortable letting the shop do their job then take your vehicle elsewhere. Pacing around the waiting room or worse (and not tolerated at my shop) walking around in the parking lot trying to watch the technician work will not result in better service. The hassle in this case is more than your $80-130 alignment is worth where you will not spend another dime on any needed repairs or maintenance because you will "do them yourself." For reference, my average ticket including oil changes is $530. No one is making a killing selling alignments only. Behaving as above is likely to quickly wear out your welcome at a reputable shop and you may be invited to find someplace else to patronize. It sounds like this shop may not have taken particularly good care, however, your attitude and those of others in this thread is what makes those of us on the other side of the counter not want to help people with "special needs." Find a shop you trust, drop the car off, allow them to give you a ride home and back to the shop in their courtesy shuttle when the car is complete. It will make the event much less stressful and more productive for all involved.

 

[coolnsx]

Thanks for the input.

I'm glad you took the time because I was not going to, but...THIS^^^.

If you are uncomfortable letting the shop do their job then take your vehicle elsewhere. Pacing around the waiting room or worse (and not tolerated at my shop) walking around in the parking lot trying to watch the technician work will not result in better service. The hassle in this case is more than your $80-130 alignment is worth where you will not spend another dime on any needed repairs or maintenance because you will "do them yourself." For reference, my average ticket including oil changes is $530. No one is making a killing selling alignments only. Behaving as above is likely to quickly wear out your welcome at a reputable shop and you may be invited to find someplace else to patronize. It sounds like this shop may not have taken particularly good care, however, your attitude and those of others in this thread is what makes those of us on the other side of the counter not want to help people with "special needs." Find a shop you trust, drop the car off, allow them to give you a ride home and back to the shop in their courtesy shuttle when the car is complete. It will make the event much less stressful and more productive for all involved.

 

[illwillem]

I agree with all the reply's. I have good friends that own shops (both tuner and run of the mill tire and oil shops) and they all say exactly the same thing that you shop owners are saying.

Giving the shop benefit of the doubt- like I did. A few things still really irked me.
If they had asked me "why are you getting an alignment today? any specific problems you are experiencing? I would have said the same thing that I told the guy when I walked in. "Yes I need an alignment because I just changed the suspension. I know its really far off right now and I drove it straight here." And like I pointed out once I realized what was happening "I wish I was told this is this was policy, im okay with it as long as its not joe stranger, alone, out in my car. where there is nothing to gain from a test drive.

As far as going where you trust, yes, I was outside of my comfort zone on this. As a matter of fact I was trying to 'loosen up' and figured that this was a good ease-in because the car will be going for a professional corner balance and alignment within weeks. I was actually really wanting to have a good experience- shit a so-so experience would have sufficed since this would have been a very convient place for my beaters and work cars.

As far as needing to 'chill' its only an NSX, whatever. Many many fan boys around here would rather powershift around in my NSX than a Ferrarri. im not going to let some guy drag launch a civic if it were mine because it was 'only a civic'

And finally, and mostly- Thirty minutes is excessive given the situation.

Had it been a high end shop with qualified tech's like i am sure pabassjo or hi0npsi is- then I will, and do, let QUALIFIED people do the work that I am paying them a premium to do. This includes their professional intuition on a 45 min road test.

Though in my apple to no so apples logic, I don't expect a 49.95 oil change to include a hone, bore and valve job- or the Tech to even know how. Had the 'test drive' even been necessity we are still in the 'get it done' price range of a very VERY straight forward procedure. This is to say I don't think id trust the butt data that this joe schmo had gathered.

Pretty much what i've learned by typing this out and getting these opinions

1. I don't go anywhere that i don't already know. : / lame
2. I am most angry about not being told/optioned what was happening
3. Bad customer service overall bad this a bad situation.

 

[Daedalus]

I don't see any reason for him to drive the car before the alignment. Any damage would show up visually or during the alignment. The shop I go to does a laser alignment first, and then the guy drives the car after and makes minor tweaks to ensure tracking is straight, usually 2 or 3 rounds before he's satisfied. It's a great family biz not all that far from West End. I would take my NSX there too, but their driveway it far too steep, lol.

 

[davidf]

When I had my car aligned, I jumped in the pass side as the tech was getting in. He had a rather dissapointed look on his face to say the least. A short test drive is definately in order to assure the car tracks straight and S wheel is centered and yes it must be on a flat surfaced road but 30 min is a stretch.

 

[Hksdrager7]

My alignment guy ALWAYS goes for a quick test drive to make sure the wheel is dead center when going straight as well as checking his work. But my car is the slowest car he works on, since his weekend job is chassis engineer for an ALMS team. :biggrin:

And dude, you do need to chill a little.... it's an NSX not a McLaren F1 or Zonda.

To us poor folk our nsx is a mclaren f1 or zonda

 

[topgunsnsx]

Look at the bright side, at least your alignment shop didn't burn your clutch trying to get the NSX onto a bay. When I saw the white smoke coming out of the rear I was like WTF. The manager even had the nerves to say it wasn't a problem and he'll try again.

 

[LJSB]

Most of perceptions and concerns posted are based on lack of communication and understanding which are needed before you can have trust.

Much seems to be misunderstood about alignments witness the comments made by some with the air of great authority and conviction.

I can see and appreciate both customer and shops side of this problem.

 

[nsxtasy]

Some great stuff has been posted here, particularly by pbassjo.

the car will be going for a professional corner balance and alignment within weeks.

Then I wouldn't have bothered with another alignment before then. Just sayin'.

 

[Hapa88]

When I went to Darin at West End Alignment, I don't him recall (or me) doing a test drive. He just put it on the rack and got to work.
At the end, I specifically remember him asking ME (by myself) to go for a test drive to make sure everything was straight and report back if there were any issues.
During the actual alignment, I was asked to sit inside my car so that all the alignment specs were done in the "normal driving configuration."

 

[egprelude]

I definitely understand how you could feel about your car and letting just anybody work on it.

If you still need an alignment, you could check out Evasive Motorsports http://www.yelp.com/biz/evasive-motorsports-la-puente in La Puente. They are well versed with the NSX and S2000 platforms for work or alignments.

 

[tbromley]

This is all very interesting. Like others here I've had my cars aligned many times in the past. When I had my Bimmers I took it to an independant shop that did great work and raced Bimmers too - they did an alignment on my car and they didn't take it for a test drive before doing the alignment either.

It sounds like it might be a good idea to test one. I think it's interesting that there are so many different perspectives on it. I can, however, understand a person's concern when they're new to them NSX was taken out for 30 minutes for a test drive before doing work. Glad everything is ok now. Thanks for sharing your experience. I always learn something to here - and that's why we love Prime!

 

[mochanges]

When I went to Darin at West End Alignment, I don't him recall (or me) doing a test drive. He just put it on the rack and got to work.
At the end, I specifically remember him asking ME (by myself) to go for a test drive to make sure everything was straight and report back if there were any issues.
During the actual alignment, I was asked to sit inside my car so that all the alignment specs were done in the "normal driving configuration."

I had the exact same experience at West End and at Evasive Motorsports (minus the suggested test drive). Maybe customers don't realize the value of someone from the shop taking their car for a test drive, but I would also have been upset if someone from the shop were to drive the car without at least telling me what was going on, and offering for me to come along. Everytime I have taken my car to a shop, it required a test drive and I was there, I was asked if I wanted to come along. It's the property of the owner and I don't see why the tech can't do their job with another person in the car. If I'm talking too much, let me know.

I understand the reasoning behind it and pbassjo's explanation, but it's the shop's responsibility to explain these things to the customer. The shop is the one that does these on a daily basis, not the customer (not to mention it's the shop that is getting paid for a service).

I would have reacted similarly to the original poster.