Scam? Title

PKim

PKim

Experienced Member
Joined
1 April 2002
Messages
643
Location
Redlands, CA, USA
With all the scam going on ebay and the internet, I need the assistance of the nsx community to help me with my situation. As some of you know I just bought my nsx in September 2002 from a guy in San Diego, here is the ad in nsxprime: http://www.nsxprime.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/000311.html

I show up to complete the transaction and he doesn't have the title with him. I asked to go to the bank and he said it is being held in some trust and will get it in one week. I made the transaction and payed him for the car and he has yet to produce the title. He has never returned my calls, and is only communication via e-mail. He has given many lame excuse. ie, the bank is taking its time and I am traveling and have not been home to check. Comes to find out this guy has sold his house now my only contact is by e-mail. He words for Intuit software company and I only get his voice mail. Last time he told me the title is here and he sent it but it was damaged during shipping. Now is reissuing the title. I called DMV and there is a lien on the title so I'm thinking that he never used the money I gave him to get the title and now is using delaying tactics. I found out the lien holder is Eldorado Bank but the phone number to the bank doesn't go through. I need some advice. Does anyone know of this bank? I'm worried that if he stops payment to the bank they may reposes the car. What can I do?

Paul
 
Show up where he works....SURPRISE!

------------------
Mitch

1991 Acura NSX black/ivory (auto)

2002 Honda S2000 white/red (6-speed)
 
Call your bank, call your lawyer and THEN show up at his office.
biggrin.gif
 
First rule of thumb when buying a car: No title...no money. Do not pay anyone for a car unless they can produce a valid title to that vehicle upon receipt of the funds. Even if they produce a title, it's always best to call the DMV right then to see if that particular title is good, and has no liens.

In your case, it appears that one of two things is happening:

1) The guy you bought the car from is an absolute moron, and is taking his sweet time to give you the title now that he has your $$$.

2) The guy sold you the car, used the money elsewhere, did not pay off the NSX and has no intention of doing so, and will disappear into the mist never to be seen from or heard from again. In this case, you're screwed and might unfortunately learn a very expensive lesson.

Sure hope it's not #2.

[This message has been edited by Mike O (edited 19 December 2002).]
 
I hope that you can find this guy. If you don't have the title you theoretically you don't own the car. I also assume that you haven't registered the car yet, and if you have the car, I would store it somewhere so this jerk doesn't report it stolen and have the cops show up at your house.

My advice is the same as aforementioned: Call your attorney ASAP! I always thought it was a rule of thumb to never buy or sell a car without having the title in hand, or having the money in escrow until the title is provided.

Good luck.
 
Amazing. Be pro-active and take the legal steps already outlined. Showing up at his place of employment might not really solve anything and time's-a-wastin.

Keep in mind that when you buy a car, what you're really buying is that piece of paper. The physical car, is almost secondary to the deal.

Would you have given him the money if he just brought the title and didn't bring the car? Of course, not. It's important, though, for all of us to think of titles as something that's just as important.

Hopefully, this guy is just being a bozo and you'll get it straightened out soon.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 19 December 2002).]
 
[rant]

I rarely (read never) get involved in disputes between 2 parties - be in buyer/seller, buyer/vender, etc.

We have been reading a lot more about Ebay problems with fraud and you almost expect a certain amount of that.

But - when I start seeing people registered on this board basically ripping off other members of this board - it kills me.

This seems to be on the rise lately and it feels the same as when my apartment was once broken into and my stuff stolen - complete betrayal and bewilderment.

I have had my NSX over 5 years, was one of the first members of the NSXCA, and have been part of the email exchange (and eventually this forum) for a long time.

I have recommended this site, David W's site, and other NSX communities as "safe havens" from this type of fraud and abuse. Now that too seems to be going.

Worst of all - I have few good solutions to this problem. I love the fact that this is all free and we have a e-culture of love of cars, love of the NSX, and a true camaraderie to help one another. Anything that would hinder those things would feel like we are giving in to these crooks who prey on this site and our trusting nature to steel, misrepresent, and otherwise rip off unsuspecting enthusiasts.

When I bought my car I couldn't come up with all the money on the spot (my bank closed before I could get the final $2k). I had a flight to Austin and talked to the owner who agreed to give me the car and FedEx the title when I gave him the other $2k. I could have easily been robbed as this person was. I am naturally a trusting person and as much as I know about the NSX - I don't always make the best financial and legal business decisions (as witnessed by my fleeting 401k). I just keep thinking on these recent "rip offs" - it could have been me.

Maybe this is obvious to many of us but perhaps it is time to update the buying info in the FAQs to cover all the legal basics. Furthermore, perhaps additional disclaimers on the parts and services for sale are required. I am not sure but I would like to think these things aren't for nothing and we can't collectively learn by them. The next person ripped off might be you or me...

[/rant]

------------------
Nick M

91' Red/Black with Many Mods
99' Honda Odyssey with Many Kids

[This message has been edited by matteni (edited 19 December 2002).]
 
I also, Like others bought my car from out of town. In my case the guy had a lein as well. I got the lein holder and got them involved with the sale. Had a purchase order
and contract written up to be signed in front of the Notary. I then overnighted the Balance to pay off the lien to the Lien holder with a copy of the signed bill of sale telling them to send the title to me.
Along with the seller signing power of attorney for the title to my banks President,
set that up before hand.(Note) Some states will not let you sign the title over to yourself. I then gave the seller his portion of the sale in the form of a cashiers check that was made out to him. I then drove off with the car and documentation that was needed to register the car in my state. It was a lot of little extras but, what happened in the posters situation was exactly what I was afraid of happening to me.
Good Luck I hope you get it all squared.
Len
n9s5x-t

[This message has been edited by len3.8 (edited 19 December 2002).]
 
Originally posted by Mike O:

2) The guy sold you the car, used the money elsewhere, did not pay off the NSX and has no intention of doing so, and will disappear into the mist never to be seen from or heard from again. In this case, you're screwed and might unfortunately learn a very expensive lesson.

Sure hope it's not #2.
Click to expand...

Take action immediately like it is option two. Don't delay, ever minute you delay is another minute your opponent has to react.
 
Unfortunately, the case probably is that he owes the bank for the car, and did not use the money you paid him with, to pay the car off. The correct steps here would have been to have him give you the number to the lienholder, prior to you flying out to get the car. You should have made the arrangements through them, to pay him in front of them, and make sure they release the title to you. If nothing else, make sure they are aware that you are purchasing the car, and get something in writing from them saying that when you transfer the funds that they would release the title. The other guys were right when they say never pay for a car without the title. I'd rather have the title in hand, than the actual car. Your next move is to take the proof of payment, or whatever you have proving that you made a transaction, and get over to an attorney immediately. The attorney's first move will be to send a certified letter to both the guy you bought the car from, and the lienholder (trust me, an attorney can find the lienholder info with no problem). I wish you the best of luck, but there is a very good chance that the lienholder is currently looking for this vehicle.
frown.gif


------------------
1992 NSX
 
Originally posted by matteni:
when I start seeing people registered on this board basically ripping off other members of this board - it kills me.

This seems to be on the rise lately and it feels the same as when my apartment was once broken into and my stuff stolen - complete betrayal and bewilderment.
Click to expand...

Hi Nick,

I feel very much the same way. However, I think it's important to keep things in perspective. The NSXprime forums, and the e-mail lists, and the NSX Club, have done so much good for the community, that it's incredible, really. People have formed close friendships, have created events which dozens and (NSXPO) even hundreds of NSX owners enjoy, have helped prospective owners find the perfect NSX in another city, have assisted each other with technical problems on our cars, and on and on. The list of good things that have come about as a result of these associations is seemingly endless.

Unfortunately, as with most good things, the possibility of abuse exists. Someone can indeed take advantage of the trust and confidence that exists in a community of people helping each other. However, it is extremely rare that this should occur - so rare that perhaps the only thing that is more surprising than a case of abuse, is how infrequent such abuses occur within our structured community.

I don't mean to minimize the case of HPV100 though. While abuses are rare, assuming that he is indeed in a predicament and not just a miscommunication, he is the one who is suffering the results, and is likely to endure a lot of aggravation as well as the possibility of a major financial loss. I feel badly for him, and hope that he is able to get the situation resolved to his satisfaction in a timely manner.
 
It has been 4 months since you bought the car and you still haven't registered it? I would have been on his case after the 1st week. Without registration, you can't even get insurance on the car. Please make sure you park her in a secure place.
I would take legal action right away and take him to court. Go see a lawyer asap. I hope you have the bill of sale and other important information when you both agreed to this transaction. This will help with the case. Hope everything turns out good for you.
 
It has been 4 months since you bought the car and you still haven't registered it?
Click to expand...

I totally missed that.

At this point, one has to really assume he's been scammed.

Bummer.

I guess one bright side is that we can all learn from this. Abuses are rare, but are also much more prevalent today as well.

Years ago I bought a car out of state. Paid the money, got the title, towed it home, went to the tag place to get the registration, only to have the lady behind the counter look at the title and tell me that it wasn't a title.
frown.gif


It was some kind of state (North Carolina) document that looked like a title, but it was an application to apply for a title. Needless to say I was surprised and pretty upset.

The tag place had a big book with colored pictures of what a valid title looks like for each state.

Lessons to be learned.

1. Don't trust anyone. Do it by the book.

2. Make sure you have the money. Bad checks, even bank checks are all too common.

3. Make sure you have the proper title. When in doubt, check ahead of time. Have the seller fax the title, both sides. Check everything.

4. Get as much ID and ancillary info as possible. Address, ID, license, SS number...anything you can use to truly identify the person on the other end of the transaction.

5. Check all the VIN numbers.

Unfortunately, today you have to almost assume that you're going to be defrauded. It's buyer beware. Here's an amazing story...
http://www.remodern.com/caught.html

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 20 December 2002).]
 
Originally posted by Jimbo:
4. Get as much ID and ancillary info as possible. Address, ID, license, SS number...anything you can use to truly identify the person on the other end of the transaction.
Click to expand...

You have to be absolutely nuts to give that information out to people, particularly your SSN. That is all it takes to completely steal your identity and credit. You should never, ever give that out.
 
Lud,

I didn't say to give out that information, I said to get as much info as possible. I would never give out my SS number to a car buyer either. But then again, I wouldn't attempt to screw someone either.

But I would certainly have no qualms to ask for as much information as possible. You as a buyer, can use this info to help determine if the buyer is legit or not. If the buyer was forthcoming and provide complete and reasonable information, (sans SS number), I would think that would be fine.

So many people, today, rely just on names and an email address and potentially bogus disaposable cell phone numbers, you just need to make sure with whom your dealing with.

You have to be prudent and reasonable and do your due diligence. Unfortunately fraud is more prevalent that we would like to believe.

-Jim

------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html
 
Well if you tell people to get that information, the implication is that you expect someone to give it, right?

Also, both buyer AND seller need to protect themselves. You can scam both ways. So if one party asks for that, the other party is certainly entitled to ask for it as well. And I believe they are both foolish if they provide it.

I am not suggesting anyone be less than diligent in their purchase process, but there are plenty of things both parties can do to verify that the deal is legit. You outlined many of those things in your message. There are MANY options to make sure the transfer is handled properly and all parties are protected. Asking for an intrusive amount of personal information from the other party is not one of them.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 22 December 2002).]
 
I'd like to note that 90 percent of the advice being given above are things that should have been done at the time of the transaction. I would hope that people would consider what HPV100 can do now that he finds himself in this predicament.

I wonder what other alternatives might exist other than a lengthy and expensive civil suit. An attorney might provide advice on this, but it will cost. NoClgDeg or others may have some suggestions on how to resolve this without the services of an attorney, perhaps by presenting a signed contract and evidence of payment to the local DMV; if so, I hope it works out. Just keep in mind that time is a-wastin', and you may lose any means of contacting the seller if you continue to let it drag on without forcing it to a resolution.
 
Originally posted by HPV100:
...I found out the lien holder is Eldorado Bank but the phone number to the bank doesn't go through. I need some advice. Does anyone know of this bank? ...Paul
Click to expand...

Has anyone considered that this bank is either fake, or gone out of business? If that's the case then it might explain the delay for the title.

Granted, the seller should NEVER have kept the buyer in the dark if this was the case. But this is where I would start my investigation!!
 
Originally posted by nsxtasy:
I'd like to note that 90 percent of the advice being given above are things that should have been done at the time of the transaction. I would hope that people would consider what HPV100 can do now that he finds himself in this predicament.

I wonder what other alternatives might exist other than a lengthy and expensive civil suit. An attorney might provide advice on this, but it will cost. NoClgDeg or others may have some suggestions on how to resolve this without the services of an attorney, perhaps by presenting a signed contract and evidence of payment to the local DMV; if so, I hope it works out. Just keep in mind that time is a-wastin', and you may lose any means of contacting the seller if you continue to let it drag on without forcing it to a resolution.
Click to expand...

After being in the automotive business for the past 7 years, 6 of them as a finance manager, I know every in and out with the DMV, banks, titles, etc. and there is a way to get a title only if the lien has been satisfied. Eldorado Bank has a branch in Huntington Beach, CA on Beach Blvd. and Warner Ave.

As NSXTACY said, times a-wastin, so shit or get off the pot.


------------------
91 Red/Ivory #2061
 
I want to thank everyone for their input on this but as Ken has said most of the advice are things that should of been done at the time of transaction. I also live by the rule of no title no money but in this incident I let my guard down. I guess the excitement of purchasing a NSX clouded my vision. I don't want to go into too many specific but I am still hopeful that this will turn out okay. I have to move foward and not dwell on the past. Eldorado bank has merged with California bank and Trust and I have found out that there is no lien on the car. So at least it is payed off. I was also worried about a bank repossing the car. I think there is some personal or financial reason for all this delay and I will get to the bottom of this. If there is anyone else that is willing to help me out I appreciate it. I will let all know how this end.

Paul
 

Similar threads

N
How much would you offer?
Replies
1
Views
589
Honcho
Honcho
SENNA_GOAT
I need help with a possible new clutch!
Replies
14
Views
525
TANTO
TANTO
Maxckarg
1994 Brooklands Green NA 5 speed. [] $60k
Replies
24
Views
4K
Maxckarg
Maxckarg
N
My NSX history
Replies
10
Views
336
NSXyes
N
90210nsx
Longest member without an NSX - finally gets one!
6 7 8
Replies
192
Views
12K
The King
The King
Back
Top