Salvage/Rebuilt Titles

[NSX-GUY]

I understand different states have different rules but generally, if a car has a "salvage" or "rebuilt" title what happens when somebody buys such a car vis-a-vis insuring, repairing, or warranty claims from the manufacturer, etc. What are all the ramifications ?

The car will sell for a greatly reduced price with either or these titles. Granted, some of these cars could have been wrecked, but some of these cars have been stolen, the insurance company paid off on them, a third party buys the car from the insurance company, repairs, e.g. the dash (ruined in the theft) and then re-sells the car for a profit, even at the much lower than market price.

Why IS that ?

 

[nsxtasy]

It seems that we continue to find people who hope to find an NSX that's worth $30,000 but for which they need to pay only $20,000. And they continue to insist that there will be nothing wrong with a car for which they pay such a low price.

Why IS that ?

 

[sjs]

Because everyone dreams of a bargain. Nothing wrong with that until you act on it.

The bottom line NSX-Guy is that an individual is unlikely to snatch up a true bargain in most cases. That's because people who specialize in fixing and selling such cars almost always get first dibs on them, they have the connections. Often they will then try a quick turnaround to someone like you for an easy profit, but then you end up with something that costs more to fix than it's worth. In any case they have already done the math and know what it will take to fix and sell. If they can make a lot more doing that than selling it to you, then why sell it to you? And they tend to have better cheaper resources than you so they can do the repairs for less. Are there exceptions? Sure, but unless you really know your stuff and buy directly from the insurance company (or salvage pool to which the send their wrecks/thefts for disposal) then you are likely to end up with a not-so-great deal. This is most especially true for cars like the NSX where most prospective buyers are careful about checking for prior damage and consider salvage titles to be a scarlet letter, dropping the effective market value.

 

[steveny]

Originally posted by sjs:
Because everyone dreams of a bargain. Nothing wrong with that until you act on it.

Often they will then try a quick turnaround to someone like you for an easy profit, but then you end up with something that cost more to fix than its worth.

And when YOU have finally fixed the car the way it should have been, the title still says "salvage".



[This message has been edited by steveny (edited 28 October 2002).]

 

[NSX-GUY]

First of all, thanks for the replies, such as they are. However, the original question really was not so much how this situation occurs (since I explained that myself), but the following....

"if a car has a "salvage" or "rebuilt" title what happens when somebody buys such a car vis-a-vis insuring, repairing, or warranty claims from the manufacturer, etc. What are all the ramifications ?"

While I didn't really intend to mislead anybody (I find very knowledgable people around this site), apparently everybody assumed I was talking about a "salvaged" NSX. In fact I wasn't.

I own an '02 M3 Cabrio and an '00 CLK430 Cabrio. I want a new or rather recent NSX for the spring/summer/fall (Kinsella's '99 Blue SC and Rococo's '02 Orange leap to mind).

Since my proposed 2nd car would be mainly a "winter" car (I'm in the Northeast) I was looking for a late model Audi S4. I found one (an '00 with 12K miles) with a salvage title for around $28K. They (www.luxurycars.com) claim "No body work or paint job(we look only for undamaged insurance pay offs)"

If the car checks out, it is a very nice deal pricewise but if I can't insure the car, get a loan on it, or get warranty work, etc, what good is it ?

I already realize that when *I* go to sell the car the new buyer will also have "issues" with buying a "salvage title" and therefore I would expect to get considerably less for the car on resale. I guess another question would be if anybody has any idea how tough it would be for ME to sell a "salvage" titled car down the line ?

How come, when anybody is looking for the best deal they can find, someone always comes up with the "You get what you pay for" line ? (Which, BTW, doesn't apply here since I clearly asked about "salvage" title, which, no offense nsxtasy, doesn't qualify as the same thing YOU are commenting on.)

Why IS that ?

Are YOU (nsxtasy) so rich you simply pay the asking price (If so, good for you. Most of us are not) or do YOU try to get the best deal you can ?

(Relax, I'm just busting your balls

)

[This message has been edited by NSX-GUY (edited 29 October 2002).]

[This message has been edited by NSX-GUY (edited 29 October 2002).]

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by NSX-GUY:
"if a car has a "salvage" or "rebuilt" title what happens when somebody buys such a car vis-a-vis insuring, repairing, or warranty claims from the manufacturer, etc. What are all the ramifications ?"

These questions are worth answering. I wasn't ignoring them; I was not answering them because I don't know the answers. Perhaps someone else here does.

Originally posted by NSX-GUY:
They (www.luxurycars.com) claim "No body work or paint job(we look only for undamaged insurance pay offs)"

I find that difficult to believe.

Originally posted by NSX-GUY:
Are YOU (nsxtasy) so rich you simply pay the asking price (If so, good for you. Most of us are not) or do YOU try to get the best deal you can ?

(Relax, I'm just busting your balls

)

I know you're just busting balls, but the principle is legitimate regardless of how much money you have. The principle is, getting the most value for your money. The Audi is a good example. You can pay $28K for a salvage title '00 S4, or you can spend $28K on X used car or Y new car (fill in whatever cars you think fall into that price category). As a general rule, you're usually much better off buying X or Y with your money than the salvaged car. (Or, spending a bit more and getting a similar car but with clean title and history.) That doesn't mean that a salvaged car is never a good deal - it can be, if it's really in good shape and the price is drastically less than a similar car with a clean title and history - but the fact is, that is rarely the case.

BTW, I don't know much about Audis, but browsing through the current Autotrader listings, it looks like there are tons and tons of 2000 S4 cars with asking prices in the $26-30K range, all of which you could buy for $28K or less. It doesn't sound like you're saving anything at all by buying this car due to its salvage title. Which makes it a very bad deal. Regardless of your financial situation.

Now, perhaps someone can answer your questions about insurance and warranty on a salvage title car.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 29 October 2002).]

 

[PettittsAuto]

I know for a fact that if an Acura or Honda have a salvaged title the warranty on the car is void no matter how many miles. Dealers can do a vin check on them and it will tell them right away if the car is salvaged. Norally they are easy to spot as soon as the car drives up. I have been told at least one local credit union in Sacto. will not loan money on salvaged title cars.

Bruce www.pettittsauto.com

 

[steveny]

I have personally rebuilt more than 35 salvage cars. If the title is branded salvage there is no warranty. As far as loans some banks will lend funds while other will not. There is no real standard for salvaged cars in the lending industry. I do remember selling a mr2 turbo that a credit union would not lend money for to the buyer. I was told at that time that credit unions in NY do not lend funds on rebuilt cars.

I have several friends in the business and can give you some insight. The price difference between a branded car and an unbranded car is really not worth the risk. When a salvage car is restored USUALLY and I stress USUALLY corners are cut. Little things like rubber grommets are not put back in, support brackets are straighten instead of replaced, etc. these are the same support brackets that are needed to save your life in the NEXT accident.

I have mostly only rebuilt cars that need no frame straightening, lightly damaged vehicles. I did repair a Lightning pickup that I had to put a new frame under. I was not repairing any of these cars for profit. I was repairing them to be able to drive them for a while and then sell them or for friends and family. In 2000 I bought a 2000 sable for my mother. A tree had fallen on it, replaced the right rear 1/4 and the trunk lid, one mirror and fixed the roof. I had 8k into a brand new car with less than 1k miles on it. I also bought it directly from the owner so the warranty is still in effect and the title was not branded.

I guess my point is if you personally do not see the car or picture there of before the repairs do not believe anything you are told. I do not believe there are any laws about discloser of how bad the damage was. In order for the car to be branded (at least in NY) the car has to have gone through a insurance companies books.

Use the Audi as an example. Car is bought new for 50k. Then it is wrecked and needs more than 2/3's of its value in repairs i.e.. branded title salvage, that's 32k in repairs. So the insurance company pays the owner for the TOTAL value of the car. The insurance company auctions off the car they get 10k for it. Do you really think whoever buys the car is going to do the required 16K in repairs? I can tell you they would not be selling it for 28k if they did. Instead corners were cut and they probably have around 20k total dollars in the Audi. That's 6k worth of cut corners.

If you do decide to buy a salvage car make sure that you have it checked out to ensure that the frame is straight. Any savings can be quickly burned up in tires from a diamonded framed. Also NEVER buy a flood car, the problems will be endless.

 

[NSX-GUY]

Thanks very much for the info.

The dealer says the car was a stolen vehicle which the insurance company paid off on. They claim there was minimal damage to the interior (some dashwork, etc).

The car supposedly was never in an accident.

It would be inconvenient for me to inspect the car personally but I'm relatively sure I could have it taken to a(nother ?) Audi dealer and have it inpected without my actually being there.

 

[steveny]

In that case it may be a good deal. There is a certain time period that must pass without recovery of stolen car, then the insurance company pays out. If the car is recovered after the payout it belongs to the insurance company.

 

[Joel]

Forget the salvage S4.

The G35 is selling for under $30k, BRAND NEW.
280 hp might I add.

 

[NSX-GUY]

Yeah, I know. I like the G35 Coupe a lot (AND the price is right) but the S4 is faster AND its all-wheel drive makes it a go anywhere car for the winter.

 

[NSXLNT]

My brother has a '99 S4 that he leased from new. His lease just ended, and he bought the car for 17K. That makes me think 28K for a salvaged S4, which is only one year newer, is a very bad deal. By the way, the S4 is a beautiful car.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Joel:
The G35 is selling for under $30k, BRAND NEW.

280 hp might I add.

However, there are some options on the G35 (leather, sunroof) that will drive the cost up closer to $33-34K. For a lot less money, you can get an Acura CL Type S (or TL Type S, for you four-door types) with 260 hp, and leather and sunroof standard, which has better reliability and the added bad-weather grip of front wheel drive. Slap a set of winter tires on the CL-S or TL-S and it will do even better on those winter roads than the Audi with all-season tires and AWD. And, at a price ($28,741 MSRP) that saves you thousands of dollars over the S4 or the G35 when similarly equipped.

These are all nice cars, and very similar in performance... but wouldn't you want the car that's brand new and leaves you with $5,000+ left over in your pocket?

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 30 October 2002).]

 

[RyRy210]

I have a number of friends that have S4's with turbo failure. I was told this was not uncommon.

 

[Joel]

Do you HAVE to get an S4?
I mean, if it's just a winter car, the A4 with AWD will fit the bill just the same.
Won't it?

 

[LJSB]

Originally posted by steveny:
"If the title is branded salvage there is no warranty."

I am curious. Where on a car warranty does it state that? How does it cover this? I'm not trying to pick on you, I'd like to know.

"I have mostly only rebuilt cars that need no frame straightening, lightly damaged vehicles."

If the damages meet or exceed 75% of the actual cash value of the car, as is the standard in NY, is that considered lightly damaged? (now I'm picking

)

"I do not believe there are any laws about discloser of how bad the damage was. In order for the car to be branded (at least in NY) the car has to have gone through a insurance companies books."

I believe in NY when you register a car it asks you on the form if it has had damage equal to or exceeding 75% of the vehicle's value. When you trade in a car you have to sign a form that pertains to this also.
It spells out the penalty for lying and there is a $2000.00 fine for non-disclosure, or there was. Tough to get caught on though.


"If you do decide to buy a salvage car make sure that you have it checked out to ensure that the frame is straight. Any savings can be quickly burned up in tires from a diamonded framed."

There are no NSX's with frames or Sables for that matter. (more and MORE picky

)


[This message has been edited by pbassjo (edited 30 October 2002).]

[This message has been edited by pbassjo (edited 30 October 2002).]

 

[LJSB]

[This message has been edited by pbassjo (edited 30 October 2002).]

 

[NSX-GUY]

Appreciate all the input as usual (Great Forum)

Joel,

nsxtasy is right (as usual). Fully optioned out the G35 is 34-35K and that's the sedan. Coupe's not in showrooms quite yet. Don't know the pricing on them. Should be similar but perhaps a little more (?)

NSXLNT,

Apples and oranges my man. Your brother bought the 99 S$ for only 17K because he paid off the rest of it during his lease. The residual amount to buy the car at the end of the lease often has no bearing on what the car is actually worth.

NSXTASY,

CL-Type S is 31K MSRP (don't know about discounts) Very nice car but I drove the TL-S a while ago and the S4 "feels" completely different.

Are you (relatively) sure the CL-Type S with winter tires would handle bad road conditions (almost ?) as well as an AWD car like the S4. I had an SVX a while back and it would go anywhere in the snow. I've had FWD cars before and they never handled as well as that SVX (although I confess I never had any "winter tires" on the FWD's)

Joel,

Yes, the A4 would serve the (primary) purpose, but there's no comparison performance-wise (grin).

pbassjo,

I've heard the same thing vis-a-vis warranties. I mean really now, if you built a car and warranted that it would be defect-free and the car was in a major accident, would you then fix anything that "went wrong" with it ? (grin)

The S4 (which is the car Steve was commenting on) DOES have a frame.

Thanks again everyone. All information (and opinions) greatly appreciated

 

[NSX Prime]

If you want to generically discuss salvage title vehicles, that is great and probably useful information for this forum. If you want to get into the details of a specific non-NSX makes and models, please do it in Off Topic.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by NSX-GUY:
Fully optioned out the G35 is 34-35K and that's the sedan. Coupe's not in showrooms quite yet. Don't know the pricing on them. Should be similar but perhaps a little more (?)

Pricing for the G35 coupe and G35 sedan is already available on Edmunds here. The coupe is $2000-2500 more than the corresponding sedan. It also has 20 hp more.

Originally posted by NSX-GUY:
CL-Type S is 31K MSRP (don't know about discounts)

You're right. I was using Edmunds' "TMV" (true market value) which is net of discounts. Apparently the cars are being discounted. My error, my apologies.

Here's what Edmunds is showing as the TMV for the various models of CL-S:

2002 automatic $28,741
2003 automatic $29,574
2003 manual $29,605

2002 automatic w/nav $30,604
2003 automatic w/nav $31,653
2002 manual w/nav $31,672

Originally posted by NSX-GUY:
Are you (relatively) sure the CL-Type S with winter tires would handle bad road conditions (almost ?) as well as an AWD car like the S4. I had an SVX a while back and it would go anywhere in the snow. I've had FWD cars before and they never handled as well as that SVX (although I confess I never had any "winter tires" on the FWD's)

Yes, relatively sure. Of course, if you put winter tires on the S4, it will do even better... but most folks don't bother doing that.

 

[LJSB]

Originally posted by NSX-GUY:
Appreciate all the input as usual (Great Forum)
pbassjo,

"I've heard the same thing vis-a-vis warranties. I mean really now, if you built a car and warranted that it would be defect-free and the car was in a major accident, would you then fix anything that "went wrong" with it ? (grin)"

1)A accident doe not place a blanket void on a NSX's warranty.2)The warranty does not state that ANYTHING that goes wrong will be "fixed".
There are specific exclusions and conditions.
Any repair, even a simple oil change or fuel fill for that matter has to meet specific requirments and standards. Not meeting these standards may lead to a denial of a particular claim but not a wholesale revocation of warranty.
I do not believe a salvage title on a NSX voids the warranty or what would remain of it at that time of it's life in a blanket fashion. If this is so, that is, a salvage title voids the entire vehicle warranty, please point me to the language in the warranty or NY/Federal law that says so. I really would like to know.

 

[steveny]

Originally posted by pbassjo:

Originally posted by steveny:
"If the title is branded salvage there is no warranty."

I am curious. Where on a car warranty does it state that? How does it cover this? I'm not trying to pick on you, I'd like to know.

In New York State nowhere on the car does it state that the car is salvage. In some states the VIN tag, which is located under the windshield on the drivers side, is permanently marked or etched. I rebuilt a 1995 Probe GT in 1995 (close to imola orange in color) the car was only 2-3 months old with 2k miles on the odometer. This car was salvaged titled and the Ford dealership did do no charge warranty work on the car up until the day the VIN # was entered into the system. Not sure on which end the VIN was entered , the dealer or the DMV. After that day all work was at my cost.

I bought this car out of PA with PA paperwork. At the time there was a question at the DMV as to whether or not the title would be branded. The dealership did know the history of the car when I took it to them to have essential repairs done.

"I have mostly only rebuilt cars that need no frame straightening, lightly damaged vehicles."

If the damages meet or exceed 75% of the actual cash value of the car, as is the standard in NY, is that considered lightly damaged? (now I'm picking

)

When I was rebuilding vehicles I tried to stay away from anything that needed frame work or replacement. I do not consider uni-body to be a frame.

"I do not believe there are any laws about discloser of how bad the damage was. In order for the car to be branded (at least in NY) the car has to have gone through a insurance companies books."

I believe in NY when you register a car it asks you on the form if it has had damage equal to or exceeding 75% of the vehicle's value. When you trade in a car you have to sign a form that pertains to this also.
It spells out the penalty for lying and there is a $2000.00 fine for non-disclosure, or there was. Tough to get caught on though.

Yes there is a place that pertains to damage of the vehicle on the back of the registration form that one must fill out before a car can be registered in NY.

Now back to the Probe I mentioned above. I traded this car in at a GM dealer here in town. I was never asked and did not disclose the fact that it was branded salvage. As a matter of fact it never crossed my mind. When the salesman test drove the car I also gave him the title. The dealer gave me trade in NADA value on the car towards a new car I bought. I have bought several cars from them since and they have never said anything to me about it. This was back in 1997 maybe things have changed since then.


"If you do decide to buy a salvage car make sure that you have it checked out to ensure that the frame is straight. Any savings can be quickly burned up in tires from a diamonded framed."

There are no NSX's with frames or Sables for that matter. (more and MORE picky

)

The S-4 does.


[This message has been edited by pbassjo (edited 30 October 2002).]

[This message has been edited by pbassjo (edited 30 October 2002).]

 

[LJSB]

I am curious. Where on a car warranty does it state that? How does it cover this? I'm not trying to pick on you, I'd like to know.

"In New York State nowhere on the car does it state that the car is salvage. "

I knew this, but it is not the question I asked.

In some states the VIN tag, which is located under the windshield on the drivers side, is permanently marked or etched."

Now being the rebuilder of 35 salvage cars and being in NY, how did those altered vin. plates go over with the NYSDMV vehicle Theft Unit? They've told me when I've gone there it was a Federal offense to alter a vin. tag. for any reason.How does a State do that? What ones do? I'm learning here. There often are conflicting laws from state to state but this is a new one on me.

I think rebuilding a salvage NSX is a loser.
The salvage prices are too high to make sense of the numbers. I'd have to buy one at 10-15% of retail to even consider it.
The warranty thing sill intrigues me. I'm going to poll some of the dealers I buy parts from inlcuding the one I got my NSX from to find out what their policy is and if they are aware of the manufacturer having one.

There are no NSX's with frames or Sables for that matter. (more and MORE picky )

"The S-4 does."

Oh, oh here I go - no NSX content.
I don't think so. The S4 is double sided galvanized steel unibody construction.

I haven't fixed a S4 but have repaired several, A4,A6,A8,TT,quattros and most of the older models. No frames found yet. All unibody.

Not to preach, but unibody, like in the case of the roof on your mom's car, are part of the cage that protects the occupant. They have different grades of HSLA(high strength low alloy steel) throughout. Damage not recognized here and not repaired/replaced as suggested by the manufacturer or say I-Car, won't wear tires but could compromise the occupants in a subsequent crash. Takes more technical expertise than a frame with diamond, at least to me.
It gets even trickier in our cars with the different grades of aluminum and adhesives used in construction. Unibody repairs really need to be looked at 3 dimensionally.A bit more so-fist-ti-kay-tid than conventional frame construction.

[This message has been edited by pbassjo (edited 31 October 2002).]

[This message has been edited by pbassjo (edited 31 October 2002).]

 

[huckster]

pbassjo, thanks for contributing---esp since youre in the rebuild biz.

i met a guy who is into rebuilding nsx's--and it quickly became apparent to me that there are NO good deals going this route, at least not according to his spiel. Across the board he was selling these things at 3-5k less than what non-salvage nsx's are going for. OUCH!!!

he had a pretty badly wrecked one--front end crumpled and one back end quarter damaged, with some slight top torquing damage--he was trying to sell it for 19k!!! thats what he'd take after talking him down!!! It was a pre-95 yr coupe. Now im talking as is, before it was fixed!! He 'said' he wasnt sure he'd have time to fix it, as he had four he was currently working on. He was 'selling' those from 30k to 50k. (none were newer than 97--this was one year ago).

I suppose if you could get a salvaged nsx completely rebuilt for say 20k with less than 20k in mileage--then you would have a 'good' deal right now. I'd probably rather have a highmileage non-salvage nsx for 5k-7k more in price.

Any other thoughts on this??? I came close to considering the salvage nsx route....just couldnt seem to see a 'good' deal in doing it.

maybe you can share some insight into what sort of expenses are involved in actually rebuilding any vehicle the right way---from avg cost of wrecked donor, avg parts cost, to avg labor time to completion. breakdown in percentages of course as different cars equal different prices.