Right Time to use R Tires?

[TigerNSX]

Hello,

I have a question regarding the usage of street tires and R compound tires at the track. I feel that the street tires that I use are already sticky enough for me. However, I have seen a lot of folks running with R rated tires in my novice/intermediate run group as well.

I have had varying opinions from instructors regarding the usage of R compound tires for Novice/Intermediate at HPDE. Some were against and some were for.

How do you know exactly when to start using R rated tires? What is the benchmark or threadshold to indicate this? How many track days after do one normally start using R rated tires?

Thanks for your time in advance.

 

[Ponyboy]

You're going to get a lot of varying opinions on this subject. My thought is that once you're perfectly comfortable with taking your car close to the limit and can control it then you are most likely ready for R comps. Basically, you want to know what the car is going to do at the limit b/c R compounds are less forgiving and will break traction with less warning. You want to be prepared for this.

I went a full year of open track driving, about 8 events, before I went to R compounds.

 

[docjohn]

My personal opinion is based on each persons learning curve.Some drivers can learn to controll a track car better more quickly,maybe due to a more sensitive buttocks!lol.So my generic answer would be r tires after 15-20 track days.But also I can tell as an instructer if a student is ready,after one drive around.So it depends on the person.There are some students who don't get it and never will so they start to mod the heck out of the car which gains them little bits,but in reality they are masking thier own weakness,and will never be really fast.

 

[TigerNSX]

Thank you (I have big butts, so it will take awhile for me to learn to better control my car).

What I am confused about is the concept of "traction" and "grip". If R comps tires hide drivers' mistakes due to its amazing grip, why would it have less warning regarding when the car loses traction? Wouldn't you have more traction with R comps?

 

[MJK]

I think what they are trying to say is that while R-Comp tires have higher ultimate grip, you don't get as much warning prior to breakaway as with street tires.

Street = lower grip with more predictable breakaway
R-Comp = higher grip with less warning

 

[DocL]

TigerNSXThank you (I have big butts, so it will take awhile for me to learn to better control my car).

What I am confused about is the concept of "traction" and "grip". If R comps tires hide drivers' mistakes due to its amazing grip, why would it have less warning regarding when the car loses traction? Wouldn't you have more traction with R comps?

Before you even come close to losing traction with street tires they usually squeal. This is how you learn how the car is approching it's limits. With "R" compound tires the squeal is less pronounced and it comes much later and closer to the point of less traction. I have spun with both street and "R" compounds, and I can tell you first hand that it is easier to predict and sometimes recover with the street tires.

 

[1BADNSX]

Hoosiers will also squeal like crazy (but agree it may be less pronounced). It really boils down to the driver. As DocJohn said, some drivers have natural abilities and others don’t (no matter how many events). The good drivers will be faster on street tires than other drivers on R-comps. You also have the potential to learn more quickly driving on street tires because you can feel the same car tendencies at a slower speed.

I didn’t drive on R-comps until two events before starting wheel-to-wheel racing and was surprised how easy they are to drive on. I had heard all the stories to the contrary. If you are not sure where you stand, ask your instructor for some brutally honest feedback.

Bob

 

[MarkB]

I knew it was time when an instructor told me I was ready for R compound tires. His comment was unsolicited and, I thought, honest.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

What I am confused about is the concept of "traction" and "grip". If R comps tires hide drivers' mistakes due to its amazing grip, why would it have less warning regarding when the car loses traction? Wouldn't you have more traction with R comps?

Here's how I'm looking at it, besides the breakaway "zone" being narrower, the grippier tires allow you to take the corner at higher speed, that makes the recovery much harder as they start losing grip. I don't have a chance to run with the R compound tires yet, but I can relate the feelings to a good set of ultra performance tires vs some OEM grand touring tires...

 

[kenjiMR]

Hello,

I have a question regarding the usage of street tires and R compound tires at the track. I feel that the street tires that I use are already sticky enough for me. However, I have seen a lot of folks running with R rated tires in my novice/intermediate run group as well.

I have had varying opinions from instructors regarding the usage of R compound tires for Novice/Intermediate at HPDE. Some were against and some were for.

How do you know exactly when to start using R rated tires? What is the benchmark or threadshold to indicate this? How many track days after do one normally start using R rated tires?

Thanks for your time in advance.

compare your laptime with very experiened drivers using R or non-R tires. subtract 2-3 seconds if they are using R compound. If you are within a couple seconds of their times, its probably ok. I don't think your skill improves too much whether you use R or not if you don't even know yet.

 

[RP-Motorsports]

Since nobody touched on this point yet, I will add it. Most of R-compound related accidents occur on the first lap!!! Therefore it is usually "rookies" that do NOT have all of the skill yet to be able to slowly bring them up to temp, or to actually save it when they let go on the warm-up lap. I have seen some drivers take 5+ laps before getting on it. Once R-compounds have heat in them, they will drive great almost like a no-brainer. It is the first few laps that can be scary when mounted to novice drivers cars.

One other seperate side note, is when R-compounds get "over" heated say 130+ mph - threshold breaking for a 90 degree turn, they can actually act greasy for about 15 seconds after track-out, where they can cause some unexpected drifting, that could result in a tank-slapper that only experienced drivers could pick-up on in advance, and save it.

 

[VBNSX]

I knew it was time when an instructor told me I was ready for R compound tires. His comment was unsolicited and, I thought, honest.

hehe.... i swear you must have the funniest stories..

 

[1BADNSX]

Most of R-compound related accidents occur on the first lap!!! Therefore it is usually "rookies" that do NOT have all of the skill yet to be able to slowly bring them up to temp, or to actually save it when they let go on the warm-up lap.

This is a very good point. I told one of my very good students recently he was ready to try R-comps and the very next event he put it in the wall during the first lap while driving solo. Of course this made me feel sick, but the situation was further induced because it occurred at a school that allowed solo students. This student was solo at a different track than where I instructed him. With an instructor in the right seat, the accident may have been avoided. He was fine by the way, the car had some damage.

Back to the original question. Tiger, if you are faster than most everybody in your run group on street tires, just stay with them and save the money. If you aren’t faster, figure out why (driver or are their cars that much better). The stock NSX with a quick driver can hang with some pretty modified cars with average drivers.

Bob

 

[TigerNSX]

Thanks, everyone, for help.

I think that I am going to stick with street tires for another year, and see how much I improve.

 

[DanO]

Another thing that differs between R compound tires and street tires is their grip envelope. Street tires have a nice rounded grip envelope so that they still grip pretty well, even past their optimal limit. R compound tires have a steep grip envelope so once you go beyond their limit, they lose traction quickly. It doesn’t take much skill to drive R compound tires 9/10ths, but it takes tremendously quick reflexes to drive at 10/10ths. Switch to R compound tires when you can comfortably and consistently lose it and catch it multiple times a lap while flirting with 10/10ths; and when I say “lose it” I don’t mean sliding the car, it’s more like doing a little shuffle around the corners trying to optimize the slip angle.

.02

DanO

 

[titaniumdave]

I am at the point of stepping up to R compound tires. I waited till I am running in the advanced group on all my track days and am consitantly among the fastest cars and drivers on the track. What has pushed me over the edge was running a session with the HP cars, I could not believe how much faster they were in the corners. I could run with most of them on the straights but my car would not grip at the speeds they were cornering no matter what I did.

I agree with DanO, get to the point of being comfortable 'dancing' the car on the edge of too much slip with ultra high performance tires first. Learn how to catch it and what the signs are when the car starts to get light, correct for it all around the track. I guess that is mostly being very comfortable with throttle steering.

Be careful with warm up, but you should have learned that already to slowly bring your speeds up. I have noticed this with tires and track brake pads both. Ease into the session.

 

[NSX 3.0]

I started using the Toyo RA1s last year after doing about seven track events. I remember my first session with them on at Road America my Instructor said take it real easy the first two laps and let them get good and warm. It felt like I was on ice until like he said after about two laps and then it was like night and day. I could not believe how they gripped after they were hot it was like I was on rails the traction was unreal.

 

[NSXLuvr]

One other seperate side note, is when R-compounds get "over" heated say 130+ mph - threshold breaking for a 90 degree turn, they can actually act greasy for about 15 seconds after track-out, where they can cause some unexpected drifting, that could result in a tank-slapper that only experienced drivers could pick-up on in advance, and save it.

OK, I am true track novice and therefore don't understand what you are trying to convey.

Does the "unexpected drifting" mean that the car will drift past track out or are you saying that it will be slippery for the next turn

btw, IMHO, the best guage for R compound tires would be level headed instructor

 

[RP-Motorsports]

OK, I am true track novice and therefore don't understand what you are trying to convey.

Does the "unexpected drifting" mean that the car will drift past track out or are you saying that it will be slippery for the next turn

btw, IMHO, the best guage for R compound tires would be level headed instructor

Sorry! I am usually ok at track out, because a lot of speed was scrubbed on the tight 90 degree turn, but speed is increased for the next turn, it starts feeling "mushy" and I always notice it, and back off a bit way before the next turn-in.

In example, the only place I have ever felt this was after 130+ mph into turn 12 @ Road America, followed by the quick swooping turn 13. If you don't take in feedback constantly from your car (rookie's may not) then you could ask for a tank slapper @ 13, which bites many a rookie.

The instructor can help, but the driver needs to learn how to "feel" everything about the car at all times when at high speed. I can actually feel when 1 pad out of 8 hits metal to metal, or when 1 lug comes loose etc etc.

 

[OLDE GUY]

Students are using R-compounds tires earlier and earlier in their track careers. But I don't think that it helps them to be better drivers sooner. And being a better driver should be the goal - not necessarily lapping a few seconds quicker because you have tires with higher grip. Is someone a better driver because he buys a newer car with more horsepower, better suspension and bigger tires and, therefore, has a quicker lap time? No, he is the same driver.

I don't think that a student is ready for R-compound until he has spun a few times in slower turns AND has learned to catch some potential spins and to prevent them. He is not ready until he has mastered late braking and can trail brake in appropriate corners and has some concept of throttle steering and is beginning to practice it. He needs to be heating his OEM tires enough that they are "going off" in late session and feeling slippery. He needs to be able to handle the uncomfortable feeling of driving with those light feeling, slippery tires and to make adjustments to the car's changing handling characteristics. With less grip, it will not take as firm a set on turn in, you will tend to be a little wide of the apex and the car will drift out more on track out. It won't stop as well either so you need to brake sooner.

A student can consider R-compound tires when he is driving well enough that his OEM tires are consistently squealing on certain turns, overheating and he is wearing them down fast. Then it may be more economical to use R-compound tires and the student is probably ready for them. But at that point comes the even more important decisions of what to do about a five point harness and a rollbar. I personally don't think that one should be driving on RACE-compound tires without a harness.To me this is the biggest drawback of an NSX: there is no easy solution to the rollbar question. I am struggling with these decisions myself.

 

[TigerNSX]

Students are using R-compounds tires earlier and earlier in their track careers. But I don't think that it helps them to be better drivers sooner. And being a better driver should be the goal - not necessarily lapping a few seconds quicker because you have tires with higher grip. Is someone a better driver because he buys a newer car with more horsepower, better suspension and bigger tires and, therefore, has a quicker lap time? No, he is the same driver.

I don't think that a student is ready for R-compound until he has spun a few times in slower turns AND has learned to catch some potential spins and to prevent them. He is not ready until he has mastered late braking and can trail brake in appropriate corners and has some concept of throttle steering and is beginning to practice it. He needs to be heating his OEM tires enough that they are "going off" in late session and feeling slippery. He needs to be able to handle that uncomfortable sensation of driving with those overheated, slippery tires.

He can consider R-compound tires when he is driving well enough that his OEM tires are consistently squealing on certain turns and he is wearing them down fast. Then it may be more economical to use R-compound tires. But at that point comes the even more important decision of what to do about a five point harness and a rollbar. I really don't think that one should be driving on R-compound tires without a harness.To me that is the biggest drawback of an NSX: there is no easy solution to the rollbar question.

Excellent advice. I truly appreciate it.