Replace engine @ 56K?

[Juice]

I am writing you while under some unforeseen distress. My NSX has been down and out for around 4 months now due to a stripped rear cross beam. I have acquired a new one with upgrades (low compliance bushings) and have given the car to my local Acura dealer to install the cross beam after doing the timing belt, water pump, Taitec headers and by-pass pipes. This is where the real trouble begins.

While working on the engine, the dealer found some bad gaskets. While replacing the bad gaskets, they then found that a cam had ground against a journal and sheared metal off of the cam. Apparently, the contact points never got any oil. They are now quoting me over 4 grand in top end parts, but don't know what other damage might lie in the bottom end. I'm looking at ~8 grand in parts and labor. A new engine runs 22G's according to them. I simply can not afford this approach to fixing my car. I'm not even sure if I can afford to fix my car at all considering.

At this point I have only talked with Larry B (he is an incredibly generous NSXer [Thank You Larry]), and have attempted to contact Mark B, as well as Factor X. Honestly, I'm running very lean with patience. The car, as my friends love to point out, spends more time up on blocks than it does on the road and has earned the name The Myth. I have only driven the car 2 in over a year and a half. This last setback just seems absurd.

What approach should I take here? Replace the top end? Do I rebuild the bottom? Dump the engine? Give the car to charity? I'm starting to run out of money to justify this car's existence. All joking aside, this is making me sick. I would truly like to enjoy my car for once.

 

[Briank]

You may be able to find a used engine to put in but you will spend 4 -5 thou without labor going that route. Do search here on prime to find the name of bone yards that deal in NSX parts and see what you can find. I would favor repairing what you have instead of buying some ones elses problem but if you motor had a oil problem then a replacment used motor may be the way to go.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18424&highlight=junkyard



http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3718&highlight=junkyard

 

[hyuan]

Do you trust your dealer? Perhaps a second opinion is in order, especially given the severity of the claims and the financial commitment involved.

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

I'd recommend taking some photos. With the valve covers off, the damage they report should be very visible.

With the amount that the repair will cost, and the quick turn around it would provide, you may want to consider giving Joe at ERZ a call for a set of used heads. Alternatively, we have a set of heads with the full Comptech IEM package that we could sell for probably the same cost you'd pay for a used set. Give us a jingle if we could help.

-- Chris

 

[ncdogdoc]

I have inside info on a couple of 3.0 liter complete engines and also heads with valve trains well within your budget constraints. [email protected]]Private me[/EMAIL] for more details.

Please no fishing expeditions, just trying to help this fellow out of a bind.

 

[ChopsJazz]

You need a second opinion! ("okay, you're ugly too!") (sorry, couldn't resist that old joke). Out here we have Don at Hilltop Auto. In AZ they have Mark. I say get it to someone local that NSX people trust.

 

[nsx4fun]

I can't tell you that your engine is better than your mechanic claims, but I know of more than one NSX in the 300K range without engine rebuilds. You may have a mechanic taking you for a ride. Or as it sounds, you bought your NSX used, it is possible that some nummy nut had a coolant hose failure, and continued to drive to get the vehicle home with an overheating engine. This could possibly cause the damage you have described, but after they replaced hoses and all, it drove well enough for them to sell it off knowing or not knowing of engine damage that would eventually lead to catastophic engine failure. Or maybe you have an engine that was destined to be lemon straight from the factory floor. Anyways, with either a "good" used replacement engine (how to guarantee a "good" used engine without totally disassembling it first anyways) or a properly done rebuild of your current engine (if that is what it truly needs), should return your vehicle to the reliability that you should expect from an NSX.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Hi Guys,

In regard to second opinions and speculation about the dealer, I had similar thoughts when Juice first contacted me. I recommended the dealer give me a call so we could discuss their findings in an attempt to see if they were "on the ball" or not.

That happened late yesterday afternoon (a good sign), and from the discussion, the dealer service manager was very good and explained exactly what they found and went further to describe possible causes, such as a lack of oil being fed to the one camshaft. I do not know the full history of the car/engine so it would be pure speculation as to why at this point, and not really relevent.

So I am pretty confident that the BS meter is in the "off" mode , and the dealer is competent and doing the right thing. I suggested MarkB for a used head (It needs to be a complete head, since the cam journals are toast). It is great that some folks have additional sources for the parts and can help Juice out on this one.

Juice, call any time, hopefully you will be in a running car very soon.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[Juice]

I am going in today to look at the damage. I am taking a camera with me. I don't think there is any reason for them to BS me. They plan on showing me the problem, and they share my concern on the issue. My biggest worry (other than the unforseen cost) is what caused the problem in the first place. So I replace the heads. Then what? Does it happen again? Why was there no oil in the cam shaft?

I start my pursuit today. I just got off the phone with Mark B (how do I get all these wonderful people to help me out like this?) and he provided some usefull things to look for as well as the offer of parts. Hopefully they allow me to use used parts, as oposed to the over priced new.

 

[DanO]

Hopefully it is only one head. If you can find a good condition used head then a machine shop should be able to swap out valves from your hold head if needed. Let us know the condition of the cam(s) too and take pictures!

A head can be replaced w/o removing the engine and if it's only one head, it may save quite a bit on labor.

Good luck and keep us informed.

DanO

 

[Juice]

The engine has already been removed. I'm trying to figure out how to post pics of the cam and journal.

 

[hlweyl]

What approach should I take here? Replace the top end? YOU SHOULD JUST NEED TO REPLACE THE ONE HEAD Do I rebuild the bottom? THERE'S NO REASON TO Dump the engine? NEGATIVE! Give the car to charity? NAH I'm starting to run out of money to justify this car's existence. All joking aside, this is making me sick. I would truly like to enjoy my car for once.

the cam not being fed enough oil and damaging a journal is a RARE occurance. There shouldn't be any damage to the bottom end though so I wouldn't even consider a new or rebuilt engine.

Sorry to hear of the troubles and good luck to you.

 

[Juice]

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jkanode/lst?.dir=/NSX+engine+woes&.view=t

Still can't figure out how to post pics. Tried using search, but gave too many posts, none of them explaining how to post pics.

From the link you can see clearly where the #2 journal is cooked and the corresponding guide as well. You can even see this in #3 pretty well. The #1 and #4 are starting to show some problems as well. Some how, this was the only cam to experience this problem. The rest were fine.

I thought about switching to the 3.2 heads, but would then have to buy both. What are the advantages to doing this? Also, why should I not wory about the bottom? My mechanic seems to think there is a big risk here.

 

[4AU4LIFE]

Pics didn't come thru.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

I think it is important to check the bottom end. The cam bores have been scored from lack of oil. Where do you think the metal is?? Hopefully all in the oil filter, but I think your mechanic is right it should be inspected at least. The oil pan should be flushed.

I think this is due to oil startvation, so there has to be something in the oil galley that feeds that cam pipe that has limited the oil flow to it. You need to be sure all oil passages are clear. Since the head will be replaced, you just need to be sure the block oil passage is cleared for oil flow.

I recall at least one o-ring seal for the cam holders to feed oil to the cam pipes. I know DanO is VERY familiar with these. Can you comment Dan?

JMO,
LarryB

 

[Juice]

Larry, the oil pan gets dropped today because the seal needs replaced. I am having the mechanic report any findings. At this point it looks like I am just buying a replacement head and forgoing any extreme mods. While it may be nice, I feel that I'm already in over my head with unforseen expences. I think total bill is going to exceed over 6 grand b/c the mechanic chooses to remove the engine and every facet of the engine to do the work. While I could argue, it did allow him to find all the problems we've found thus far.

I really don't know if I want him to tear down the crank looking for metal shavings. More time and money, and it is starting to near the cost of a used engine at this point. If it costs me 3 grand to rebuild my engine, I could have purchased another one at this point!

 

[Juice]

The link should work now. Still can't seem to post pics in thread.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Juice,

Obviously this is a decision you have to make. At least if the pan is down, they can make a complete inspection of it, if any metal is in there, and have a look to see if any metal was around the crankshaft. At this point they will probably advise you if they are worried.

Good Luck,
LarryB

 

[DanO]

OK, that camshaft looks bad! Sorry it had to happen Can you tell us which cam this is?

It would be interesting to know whether the head has been apart before, did the mechanic say anything about seeing evidence of this—maybe to replace a leaky cam plug? I think that an improper cam rail install could cause a problem like this too.

I agree with Larry that it is important to try and figure out what happened so that you can make sure it won’t repeat.

I wouldn't be too upset with the mechanic's decision to remove the engine as it will probably end up with better workmanship just because the engine is so much more assessable.

DanO

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Hi DanO,

I was thinking the same thing about a cam plug job gone bad. I just spoke with MarkB on some other things and I mentioned this thread after having seen the pictures. One possibility he feels strongly about could be an overheating situation. Other then oil contamination, or lack of oil pressure, he thinks this is a very likely possibility.

Juice, has your car ever overheated badly on you??

HTH,
LarryB

 

[Juice]

Like I said DanO, I have no hard feelings on the engine pull. Likely, since this is the front top cam, it would not have been found without pulling the engine. I talked to Mark as he was looking over the pics. The belief again is either a lack of oil or an over heated engine. I never recall either of these being a problem. I always watch my oil pressure because it seems to be too high, not to low. My guess is this problem started before I ever purchased the car. Since I have not put many miles on the engine myself, this is only a guess.

I decided to get another stock top end for a 3.0 front. I just hope that the rest of the shop work goes without incident (or surprise cost/damage). This past year has been a good lesson in how cars can be more costly than expected. I have also learned a lot about what goes on inside my engine. Unfortunately, now I feel like I want to get in there myself and look around. I wonder how much damage I would unintentionally do.

 

[nsxtasy]

The link should work now. Still can't seem to post pics in thread.

There are instructions in this topic.

However, if I recall correctly, Yahoo's album function does not include remote linking to their photos. Or maybe it does, but only if your computer is logged on to Yahoo...?

See if these photos show up:

If not, then I think you're SOL.

Sorry to hear about your problems, Juice, but it sounds like at least you're getting good support from your dealer and those on this forum...

 

[sjs]

I would rank overheating fairly low in probability of a cause, but certainly not impossible.

Can you be more specific about the "high" oil pressure? Perhaps partial blockage in one are would cause higher pressure at the sensor while starving the cam? Seems a bit remote, but I'd still be looking for oil passage blockage.

 

[Juice]

To me this seems like oil passage blockage simply because it did not affect any of the other cams. But this is a guess. My only hope is that changing out the head, dropping the pan, and generally cleaning the engine will cure my problem. I do not want a repeat of this senario.

As for the oil pressure, hitting WOT would send my needle to the 8 marker on my guage. I thought that this was quite commom, if not absolutely correct. I remember looking in the service manual some time ago for this info.

And no, my Yahoo does not allow me to host photo's on this site.

 

[EZCOMPANY]

Very Sorry about your car, Juice. I hope everything will work out well. It's just extremely stressful to see something happen to such a fine & delicate machine. Good luck!


Host some pics for you without your permission; just hope you don't mind. BTW, new memeber here wants to say hi to everyone; I've been surfing the Prime for the past couple weeks, excellent information from LarryB, DanO, & always a joy to read NSXTASY's posts.

Byron