red light camera help

[otto_joe]

I recently got a red light camera ticket on a right hand turn. Anyone have any advice on how best to fight it?

I've briefly looked at the ticket assasin website, but was open to other ideas. i.e. traffic lawyers and other Trial by written declaration resources.

The ticket is in Fremont, CA and the "bail" is $351 and the traffic school "fee" is $380. I could pay this "city tax" and go to traffic school and I have no problem giving money to the city, but I do feel these automated ticket generating machines cause more safety issues than the revenue is worth.

Thanks.

Otto

 

[ONEADAM12]

I'm sorry, not to bash, but i dont see the logic in how these cameras are a safety issue.... what exactly is it that makes the cameras a safety issue??? all the camera does is take your picture.....

now on to the soapbox what is a safety issue is statistically THE most dangerous traffic violation that can be committed, RED LIGHT VIOLATIONS!!!! anything a city can do to reduce these type violations is only going to save lives and prevent injuries !!!!! not only does the city give fair warning with signs posted, the cameras are so obvious to see. as for advise.... i guess it is all about how much your time is worth to you and if it is worth your time to TRY to beat the ticket in court. if you do, be prepared to TRY and answer these questions... is that you in the picture??? is that your car with you driving it BEHIND the limit line when the camera took your picture as the light turned red???? be aware, red light cameras take a series of time lapsed pictures of you and your car in relation to just before the light turns red, as the light turns red and after the light turns red..... the officer coming to court will have ALL these pictures in hand as evidence to proove his case and pretty much remove ALL doubt (not just resonable dought) for the judge..... hense not only will you be paying the associated fines, you will also be loosing whatever money you are no longer making at work..... it would most probably be more economically feasible to pay the fine and take traffic school if it is available.... another thing you might want to consider is the legislation a few year back made red light violation fines set at a mandatory figure due to the seroiusness of the violation, therfore going to court to hopefully get the fine reduced is very unlikely..... my statements by all means are not ment to try to deter you in going to court and arguing your case, i'm just offering up a little knowledge to help you make an informed descision...... best of luck !!!!

 

[otto_joe]

ONEADAM12,

I respect your opinion and I'm just expressing mine. With my luck you are the one that reviewed my photo ticket.

The panic stops people make rather than just cruising through on the yellow are crazy, and I know that my wife has been rear ended twice when coming to a stop.

I do feel my case however is in a gray area but would not want to go into the details on a public forum.

Just out of curiosity, what agency are you from?

Thanks,

Otto

 

[ONEADAM12]

Otto,

i wasnt trying to bag on you or be derogatory..... just trying to give an honest opinion and frendly advise..... i am not employed by any agency near you, so it wasnt me...... i have just come into some of the technical details of the camera as research for the city i work for..... as for your situation being a little grey, if you want to PM me and explain, i MAY be able to offer a little help IF you have a loophole or technical way out...... however, it has been my experiance that officers tend to only submit the slam dunk cases they know they can win rather than roll the dice on the ones that are marginal.... let me know....Dave

 

[amgnsx]

I recently got a red light camera ticket on a right hand turn. Anyone have any advice on how best to fight it?

I've briefly looked at the ticket assasin website, but was open to other ideas. i.e. traffic lawyers and other Trial by written declaration resources.

The ticket is in Fremont, CA and the "bail" is $351 and the traffic school "fee" is $380. I could pay this "city tax" and go to traffic school and I have no problem giving money to the city, but I do feel these automated ticket generating machines cause more safety issues than the revenue is worth.

Thanks.

Otto

Sup dude
sorry to hear that u got caught.

All i can say is good luck fighting it coz last month i was in traffic school for speeding :frown: and they guy next to me was an SFPD :biggrin: who actually got the same tkt u did.
Apparently even law enforcement cant get off that kind of tkt when they are driving their private car.

Best u can do is do is what wifie did a while ago. She was tagged by the camera running a red light on 3rd and Harrison. So she went to court and told the judge she was guilty and they gave her a break on the fine from $250 down to $80 + traffic school.

Good luck.

 

[otto_joe]

Otto,

i wasnt trying to bag on you or be derogatory..... just trying to give an honest opinion and frendly advise..... i am not employed by any agency near you, so it wasnt me...... i have just come into some of the technical details of the camera as research for the city i work for..... as for your situation being a little grey, if you want to PM me and explain, i MAY be able to offer a little help IF you have a loophole or technical way out...... however, it has been my experiance that officers tend to only submit the slam dunk cases they know they can win rather than roll the dice on the ones that are marginal.... let me know....Dave

Dave,

For the two times I've been cited by an officer, I've never contested because I knew I was wrong. It may not have been fair, but I knew I was wrong.

The first was back in 1990 and I was picked out of three cars by radar. No complaint there because yes, I was speeding and there have been many times I've gone the flow and the other guy has been picked off.

The 2nd time I think was back in 1997 where I got hit by radar in a 25 zone. It was one of those things where I wasn't paying attention since I was in a 35zone which when to 25 for a block and then back up to 35, but clearly posted.

With automated ticketing however, I feel that they churn them out regardless of quality.

I guess the first thing I need to do is contact the traffic manager and request to review the digital video. Maybe after I see the video I'll change my mind, but with what they've sent me so far I'm not very convinced. Maybe, I'm just destined to take traffic school every 7yrs. :frown:

Otto

 

[Anosa]

Im just wondering, had you come to a complete stop at the red light? im not sure how the camera works, but this might be why it took the picture,

as for the panicked stops i do agree, to some extent. But from what i was told of how the cameras work, if your already in the intersection at yellow, it shouldnt take a picture. Although I've seen it go off when cars are in this situation...:frown:

one way or another good luck, hopefully you can get the situation fixed

 

[khappucino]

just curious, did you do a rolling right hand turn, or a stop-go right hand turn,
if the traffic light gave you a ticket for a stop-go red light turn thats kind of ridiculous, anyone know how they determine red light violations for situations when you actually can move during the red light (a la red light)

 

[Patdeisa]

http://www.helpigotaticket.com/stra/redlight.html
http://www.highwayrobbery.net/

The first link is great for any ticket in California. The second is red light specific. Good luck!

 

[Ben]

The cameras are potential safety issues as many cities set the duration of the yellow light to shorter than the duration specified by traffic engineering studies in an effort to generate revenue. Some reading on the issue:

http://www.motorists.org/issues/enforce/studies.html

and more specifically, on the issue of deliberately shortening yellow lights:

http://www.motorists.org/issues/enforce/challenge.html

Otto,

That said, the NMA is a good source of information on this sort of thing. These are the guys who were instrumental in getting the national 55 mph speed limit repealed, and fight against unjust traffic enforcement for revenue generation purposes.

 

[ONEADAM12]

are you guys smoking crack ?????:wink: to think ANY police agency would shorten the yellow light time in an effort to increase red light violations to increase revenue is totaly obsurd !!!!!! to think police departments are getting rich off red light fines is a farse...... after all the goverment agencies, courts, dmv, etc take thier cut of the fines, police departments are left with pennies on the dollar...... if just one person fights a ticket that requires the officer go to court, the overtime spent by the department or lost productivity of the officer when on duty COST the department money even AFTER they win the case.... additionally, the theory of EVERYBODY bringing all this paprwqork, studies and other BS into court to try to win on a technicallity or clogging up the court is utter nonsense...... once one of the paperwork tactics is tried, the officer goes out an tells every cop in the area and he tells 2 friends and so on and so on, the one time technical win will get blown out of the water the next time another officer gets challenged with the same tactic.... take for example radar tickets... way back in the day, some people were successful in winning cases at first, but then the cops and courts caught on and now it is VERY RARE to beat a radar ticket..... same thing with red light cameras..... as for clogging up the courts.... the courts and cops are going to continue to do thier jobs..... show up in court.... wait thier turn and present thier case..... the biggest loosers by clogging up the court is the defendant, who has to sit and wait while NOT getting paid at thier job for the day while the court is clogged up...... red light violations are a result of one of two things.... driver impaitience or driver inattention..... you pick which one you want the next driver to be doing when you are sitting at a red light, first in line and start into the intersection as soon as your light turns green and then the car coming from your left runs the red light... result= t-bone right into your driver side door :frown: or your kids door in the back seat :frown: :frown: :frown: lets get real guys.... get off the conspiracy theores and face reality, traffic violations are results of getting caught by not playing the game by the rules..... the cops are out ther to enforce the rules..... NOT TO JUST GET YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! drive safe :biggrin:

 

[ONEADAM12]

read this post !!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62476

 

[Ben]

are you guys smoking crack ?????:wink: to think ANY police agency would shorten the yellow light time in an effort to increase red light violations to increase revenue is totaly obsurd !!!!!! to think police departments are getting rich off red light fines is a farse...... after all the goverment agencies, courts, dmv, etc take thier cut of the fines, police
departments are left with pennies on the dollar.

It's not the police agencies. It's the cities/counties who employ the ticket cameras, which would fall into the aforementioned "govenment agencies". The studies are out there. It's pretty hard to read through all the data, and still not have any doubt on this. The NMA has issued a $10,000 challenge to lengthen yellow lights in Virginia, Maryland, and DC, and why has no one stepped up to take it?

And, in many places, traffic enforcement for revenue is commonplace. Whether it's justified or not is another debate, but to say it doesn't happen at all is a bit short-sighted.

Another alternative to cameras would also be to lengthen the time between when one light turns red, and the other turns green.

 

[ONEADAM12]

why.... because it is BS !!!!!!! why do you think..... come on.... do you really belive any agency/city would do something to increase the chances of a collision????? all it would take is ONE person to prove that happened and the city/ageny would go bankrupt as a result of the lawsuit !!!!!!!! i ahve a theory, the govt agency that is doing this probaly also hired the second gunman on the grassy knoll in Dallas too :wink:

 

[Ben]

If you can honestly read through all the articles in the links above, and still not have any doubt in your mind at all, than all I can say is that I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Just because your city/agency doesn't do it (and they probably don't), doesn't mean it doesn't happen at all anywhere else.

 

[NsXMas]

why.... because it is BS !!!!!!! why do you think..... come on.... do you really belive any agency/city would do something to increase the chances of a collision????? all it would take is ONE person to prove that happened and the city/ageny would go bankrupt as a result of the lawsuit !!!!!!!! i ahve a theory, the govt agency that is doing this probaly also hired the second gunman on the grassy knoll in Dallas too :wink:

You should chill a bit.

I took a driving safety class in CA a couple years ago.

The instructor was a retired CA highway patrol officer who specializes in traffic safety. His full time job was to investigate accidents, and also consulted as an expert witness with insurance companies in court to help determine blame for accidents.

When someone asked him about the safety of red-light cameras, he lit up like a Xmas tree, saying that he hated those things, that they're nothing but revenue generators, and that he's seen plenty of instances where people have panic stopped at a light, and gotten rear-ended by others, and were injured..

Yea, after that I became skeptical as to the eficacy of red-light cameras.

Nothing substitues real human enforcement.

 

[AU_NSX]

I have always seen police as people out there to get me... Personally! I have been pulled over by corrupt cops for doing something I wasn't doing and fined!! Probably because I was young and their shift was nearly over or they needed to make their quota.

Also, I am older now and maybe wiser because I have not been caught sometimes for doing something I shouldn't (I do have 2 NSX's :biggrin: ).

However, I have now had the opportunity to work in a country with seemingly no road rules and if they do in fact have them, there is no-one interested in enforcing them!!! The result is carnage! I am in India on an assingment and have to travel 2hours every day from the hotel to the site. If I make it out of this country without having a major accident, it will be by the grace of God only!

Pay your fine! Do the time in drivers ed or whatever you have to do to and stop complaining! Sure you got caught and are upset, but 98% are not running red lights on you becasue they don't want to be caught! Just think about what the roads would be like without Red light Cameras, double lines, stop signs or speed limits... And if you can't picture it ... go to India!!!

Road rules really do save lives! Don't break them! Then you won't get fined! and you may just live a little longer too... :wink:

 

[ChopsJazz]

FWIW, I recently got a red light camera ticket in Fremont and when I went to pay it I asked the clerck I could get a court date to ask for a reduced fine (I've pleaded stupidity before and had fines reduced). She told me the only way the judge would consider a reduction of my fine was if the ticket was for a right turn (it was not) and said that the only possible way to get a reduction or a waiver was for a right turn infraction.

You just may have a case! :smile:

 

[Ben]

Red light running is definitely a problem that needs to be addressed, but red light cameras are not the solution.

 

[otto_joe]

Nothing substitues real human enforcement.

I can't agree more. I'm pretty sure the outcome would have been different if an actual traffic officer was there instead. The camera just takes a small snapshot of time.

I just got back from vacation and took a quick look at the spot where it happened and the sensors are pretty close to the crosswalk. If you were to stop a car length away from the cross walk (the corner has a huge radius) and then accelerate though the right hand turn I'm sure it would simulate someone running a red light. After all our NSXs can get up to speed pretty quick in a short distance. :biggrin:

Thanks.

Otto

 

[otto_joe]

I have always seen police as people out there to get me...

Not me, like I said before I have no complaints about the tickets I've received from an officer. All my dealings with getting pulled over they have been professional and polite. In one case where I was pulled over by a CHP, he was very apologetic over pulling me over because he mistook my rollbar as me not having my seatbelt on back when I still had my miata.

My only poor dealings have been with the parking enforcement guys in Berzekeley and San Jose. One case in my mind drives me nuts. I pull into an empty metered space and let my friend out to hit the ATM. As soon as she closes the door, I'm boxed in by parking enforcement and the guy says "You ARE going to pay the meter", while holding his ticket book. This is while the car is still running! Rather than argue I say, "yeah, I've just got to shut her down and look for some change." He bascially waited for me to shut down the car, get out put a quarter in the meter, and by the time he left my friend was back. I think he was hoping that I didn't have change for the meter.

... go to India!!!

I don't need to. Most of the Asian countries are insane. When I visited Korea, divider lines meant nothing.

Road rules really do save lives! Don't break them! Then you won't get fined! and you may just live a little longer too... :wink:

Only in the perfect world. :wink:

Otto

 

[otto_joe]

read this post !!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62476

This post is just someone not paying attention and blowing through an intersection. I don't think prior knowledge of redlight cameras would have helped this situation. Stuff like this is why I've elected to sell my motorcyles and retire from riding until my kids get older.

Back in Dec of 1989, I was hit by someone who just didn't see the redlight. I mean literally. It's not as if it had just changed, she just went straight through at and nailed me as I was going through. I should see if I still have pictures of the caranage that little Civic did. I was fortunate that the impact was on the passenger side and I was in the best shape of my life back then since I was training for a Judo tournament. I was lucky that there were plenty of witnesses too, since she got a sleazy lawyer and tried to sue me saying I turned left in front of her. Needless to say it got thrown out pretty quickly. Actually, the lawyer dropped her case as soon as the signed witness statements came in even though she chose to pursue it on her own.

Otto

 

[otto_joe]

the theory of EVERYBODY bringing all this paprwqork, studies and other BS into court to try to win on a technicallity or clogging up the court is utter nonsense......

Hey, something I can actually agree with you on. :wink: I don't believe in the BSing and trying to get off if I'm clearly in the wrong, but I do believe in the truth.

the biggest loosers by clogging up the court is the defendant, who has to sit and wait while NOT getting paid at thier job for the day while the court is clogged up......

I was raised with the idea that principle was more important than time or money. We fight for what we believe in.

Otto

 

[NeoNSX]

I have always seen police as people out there to get me... Personally! I have been pulled over by corrupt cops for doing something I wasn't doing and fined!! Probably because I was young and their shift was nearly over or they needed to make their quota.

Also, I am older now and maybe wiser because I have not been caught sometimes for doing something I shouldn't (I do have 2 NSX's :biggrin: ).

LOL... excuses, excuses... I think the reason you don't get caught now is you're an experienced hoon. Plus that Twin Turbo must help in outrunning the cops.


Though seriously, i think police do stereotype young men and hence are more likely to target them. But you can't use that excuse either badboy!

 

[02#154]

Otto, sorry to hear you got nabbed. Was it just a rolling stop to make a right?

I was getting fuel at a busy corner in Union City one night and watched several cars get their picture taken. The thing that made this interesing was, as I sat there and watched, it was *absolutely* clear that these cars were not running red lights. Sometimes the things were even taking pictures of traffic whose lights had just turned green! I can only imagine that the sensors or whatever in the cameras were thinking that the cars that were entering the intersection were coming from lanes with the new red light! (though I have no idea of the real reason this might have happened... just a layman's guess.)

Point of the story is, these things are machines that make assumptions about the status of lights and traffic. If they're not kept properly calibrated, they're useless for accurate law enforcement, though I'm sure no judge or law enforcement agency will admit this in court.

The end of the story includes two things:

1) by the time I was finished fueling up the car, a utility truck had pulled up to one of the cameras and a guy with a ladder and what appeared to be a laptop computer looked to be preparing to "fix" the camera.
2) a few days later, I saw a TV blurb on a teaser for the news that said something about UC having to refund a bunch of money to people who had gotten tickets from a defective camera(s); I guess these were folks who assumed the cameras were perfect and just paid the fine thinking there was "no way out" of a camera ticket.

I echo the statement by Ben: "Red light running is definitely a problem that needs to be addressed, but red light cameras are not the solution"

J