Recommendations for racing lessons?

Joined
17 April 2001
Messages
204
Location
Michigan
Hello all!
Any reccomendations for a good racing school? Want to be able to launch, corner, and shift, etc better. What schools out there are pretty decent (Price and knowledge)?

THe only racing schools I know is Skip Barber and Russell. Are there more?
 
I would start out by joining some other car clubs BMW,Alfa,Porsche, etc and sign up when they have there Driving Schools. I think the best money you could spend on your car is learning how to drive it and most of these Clubs have great Instructors. I know the Windy City BMW Club has one at Road America in May 5-6 and usually runs around $300 or so and that's two days 8-5 some class room and a few 30 minute on track sessions with an Instructor. There are also Track Time and Speedtrial USA that gets to some of these Tracks in the Midwest.

Steven 91 Blk/Ivory
 
There's also Derek Daly, and Bondurant.
I'd recommend taking one of the larger schools first. The smaller BMW club and Alfa Club schools are great follow ups and whatnot, but spending 6 hours a day on the track for 4 days beats just about any club instructor and school.
 
It all depends on what your looking to accomplish I would rather learn my abilities in my own car than a small Formula Ford or what ever they use. As for spending $3,000 for a four day School I would hope there Instructors are good.

Steven 91 Blk/Ivory
 
CGI Motorsports www.cgimotorsports.com runs driver’s education track events at Gingerman Raceway in South Haven, MI. In my opinion, these events are an excellent way to get acquainted with how to drive around a track and to start the process of realizing the potential of these beautiful cars. Typically, there’s a few of us NSXers at these events.

DanO
 
Steven, lets put it this way, This year was my first year on the track with my NSX, aside from the racing school (which I did in 2000)
I attended 2 BMW schools and 2 PCA schools and did not learn a DANG thing compared to what I learned at Bondurant. Not even CLOSE. As with all other sports You can never teach yourself beyond a certain point, anyone who starts with formal schooling will ultimately surpass someone who has had a few small school days and mostly self taught.

In support of this opinion of mine, I started in April of '00 in my NSX at a local BMW track day. Novice group no experience at PIR.
By September of 2000 I was fast enough in my car to be advanced 4 levels to the High Performance group and also sub as a backup instructor at the Club events.

I went to SiR for the first time in my NSX on street tires and I scared the piss out of my PCA instructor who drove a 993 C2 on hoosier slicks. Although I wasn't taking lap times, my instructor assured me I was faster around the track than he was and after 1 15 minute session cleared me to jump 2 levels to the Advanced group at a trak I'd never ran before.

I've been on the track with many cars that vastly overpower my car and kept up if not passed them on street tires, when they were on R-compound tires. I've improved immensely in the just a few months.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not here to beat my own chest. I just wanted to illustrate that the reason I have improved so greatly in just a short time is because of the STRONG schooling of basics that I got at the bondurant Racing School. Believe me, if you think the club schools are adequate you are in for one heckuva surprise.

So..in conclusion to my overblown egotistical opinion
smile.gif
Go to pro school. Club schools dont cut it.
 
Originally posted by Steven Spanbauer:
It all depends on what your looking to accomplish I would rather learn my abilities in my own car than a small Formula Ford or what ever they use. As for spending $3,000 for a four day School I would hope there Instructors are good.

Steven 91 Blk/Ivory

Good instructors? Well, let's see: one of mine was an IMSA World Champion, one was a noted vintage racer, and one competed in whatever the equivalent was of World Challenge or similar. That good enough?
Sorry but I have to disagree about the club instructors - yes, there are definitely some good ones - but I don't think that on the whole they are anywhere near as good as the level of instruction at a top-level school.
The three day Skip Barber school was the most intensive 3 days that I have ever spent doing anything and ranks as one of the best experiences of my life. Also, I have to disagree about learning in your own car. I think that you will learn much more and faster in one of Skippy's formula cars than in your car. What you learn will carry over and translate to your car surprisingly well.



------------------
Andrew Henderson
The NSX Model List Page

"We have long acknowledged that enthusiasm for things automotive is a sure
sign of emotional instability if not outright dementia"
- Brock Yates
 
Points well taken guys if I had the extra $$$ laying around I would take Skips or Bondurants School to if you don't what are your options. Andrew my first School at Road America I had some excellent advice given to me by Randy Probst who was there as an Instructor for a Gentlemans Wife in there lightweight M-3 he is one of the nicest guys to talk to and I'm sure you know who he is.

Steven 91 Blk/Ivory
 
Obviously, there are a lot of different schools, and different approaches to instruction.

While I have not personally taken the professional for-profit schools (Barber, Bondurant, etc), I've heard consistent high praise for them. I believe that their instruction is top notch. They are also very, very expensive, running anywhere from $500 for a one-day school to $3000 or more.

There are schools, like CGI Motorsports and Trackmasters, which are much less expensive ($150-200 per day) and where you get a whole lot of track time. These are best for the experienced track driver (although they also offer instruction for the novice).

Finally, there are schools that are all pretty similar to each other. These include the marque clubs (BMW CCA, PCA, etc) as well as for-profit groups such as TrackTime and Car Guys. They put instructors in the passenger seat, offer classroom instruction, and typically offer 75-95 minutes of track time per day over the course of 3-4 run sessions. The quality of instruction varies from chapter to chapter and group to group. I've seen chapters that are newly started whose instructor qualifications are loose, and I've seen well-established chapters which require tryouts and TONS of experience. The BMW CCA events in the Midwest (particularly the Windy City, Hoosier, and Northern Ohio chapters) have instructors that are every bit as experienced as those used by TrackTime and Trackmasters; most instructors have driven well over 100 track events, some with several hundred, and some with professional experience. The advantage of the marque clubs is that they tend to be relatively inexpensive ($250-400 for a two-day school); the for-profit groups are typically $500-600.

Assuming money is only a minor consideration, I think everyone should go to one or two of the professional type schools early in their track careers - maybe as their first track event, maybe after they've had a couple of marque club events under their belt.

Once you've done one or two of those, though, I think there's no substitute for experience. And I think it's easiest (and less expensive) to do this by frequenting the marque clubs at first, and then after you build up some experience (8-10 events) adding in some lapping days such as CGI and Trackmasters offer.

Each of these groups has a website with an obvious website address.

Some chapters of some clubs have events that fill up early. It helps to know the sign-up rules, to maximize your chances of being accepted into the events you want.

I know the Windy City BMW Club has one at Road America in May 5-6

Windy City also has events at GingerMan (June 2-3) and Grattan (Sept 15-16). And there are lots of other chapters around the Midwest.

Beware some of the groups that run time trial events, where cars are timed. In the (hopefully unlikely) event that you go off the track and hit something, insurance may be less likely to cover the damages in a timed event.
 
As for launching and shifting, I'm not sure if any schools will really help you with that (except maybe heel/toe downshifting, but that's easy in concept, it just takes practice).

As for cornering, there's lots of highly effective price/performance routes you can take, depending on where your skill is now. If you're *really* novice (for example, have no idea what a late Apex is), then you should start a good book, Gran Turismo 3, go-karts, autocross, and club events (I don't care how bad an instructor is, they can pretty much all teach a raw recruit the basics pretty decently).

If you've already got a handle on the basics, then it's not clear where to go from there. I took an Evolution (formerly McKamey) Phase 1 autocross school (http://www.autocross.com/evolution/) when I had a pretty good handle on basics, and I found it worthwhile because 1) it let me attack the same course many times in my car (significant compared to autocross events, irrelevant compared to on-track schools), and 2) the instructors were very good at helping me to understand what I was doing well, what I was not doing so well, what the car was capable of doing, and helping me to improve. Now, some of the concepts are more limited to autocross (like slaloms, finding the course, etc), but other things are more generally useful (braking, maintaining momentum, cornering sequences), and for I think it was $175, not too bad on the price/performance meter, especially when you take into account the significance of being in the passenger seat while a good driver drives YOUR car a hell of a lot faster than you, showing you what it can do with the right inputs. They also have split times so you know where you're fast and where you're slow. Also, launching comes into play at autocrosses, but I don't recall any special emphasis being put on that.

I'm also lucky because I live in an area where at any given autocross event, I can ask any of a dozen national champion drivers any questions I feel like, and sometimes go for rides in their cars, or have them drive my car. It helps the learning process a lot. Especially because I can also go to a go-kart track with some of those people, and discuss things with them in a context where track time is affordable, the equipment fairly consistent, there's timing equipment for definite feedback of progress, and the track is always the same. And it helps quite a bit.

As for race-track driving, I've never had an instructor on-track that did anything more than help me find the line, and maybe provide a couple new ways to think about something for me to roll over in my head and let me experiment with. I've only done 2 track events, though, with 3 different instructors. And for all 3, I already had a very good handle on basic driving techniques, and was comfortable driving my car near/at the limit. So maybe I'm missing something. But I refuse to believe there's nothing I could have learned if, say, Peter Cunningham got in the car with me. Another important thing to consider with club schools is that no matter how fast a driver someone is, it doesn't necessarily mean they can teach someone else how to be that fast. To that end, I actually tend to learn more by riding with someone else then having someone else ride with me. Being able to see and experience what the car is capable of doing, and how the person did it, watching their exit speeds and line and such, and then trying to do it myself usually ends up more useful.

So in the end, if you're really serious about going seriously fast, then everyone else is probably right, go do a real racing school.

However, if you're like me, and you're at a good intermediate level (or can get there with books/go-karts/autocross/club events), then the $3000 for Bondurant is much better spent on a Basch Boost supercharger which you can enjoy on your drive to work every day. Or to spend that money doing 10-20 track days (depending on cost, of course) where you can just go out and have fun and get some practice, or doing 200-300 go-kart sessions. But who knows, maybe I'd change my mind if I actually went to one of the high-dollar schools.

But on the bottom line, YOU are the one who has to make yourself a good driver. It's all about mental discipline. I don't care who your instructor is, if you don't listen to them, try very hard to understand what they're saying, ask intelligent questions, and then practice (even on your way to work, you can analyze the best lines through all the corners, even though you're obeying the speed limit), then you won't become a good driver.

-Mike

[This message has been edited by grippgoat (edited 07 January 2002).]
 
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