Rear Camber Correction Survey

S

SYRfabrication

Registered Member
Joined
6 September 2012
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10
Hello NSX Prime, it has been brought to my attention that rear camber remains a relatively large issue for many NSX owners.
I am currently investigating an affordable correction for this problem.
I am a Senior in Mechanical Engineering Technologies at the University of Cincinnati.
I am using this project as my Senior Design Project, and have a few paperwork steps I must go through before I can begin the actual design/prototype process of the product.

I have created two surveys, and would like to request all users feedback that have the problem of rear camber on their NSXs.
Whether your problem is excessive tire wear, less than ideal adjustment, or the current options available for rear camber correction, please complete these surveys!!

First Survey: How important is each feature to you for the design of a new NSX Rear Camber Kit?
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/6L3BZDZ

Second Survey: How satisfied are you with the current options for NSX Rear Camber Correction?
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/67DCGXL


I thank you in advance for your help with obtaining these survey results!
There may be additional assignment's on my end in the near future that require me to seek the opinions of future customers.
If you could help me here, I will be greatly appreciative.

I will be more than happy to share my progress of this project with you folks if there is interest.
I hope that together we can find a solution to this camber problem!


If you would like some reference to my credibility, please take a look at an Acura Integra that I had built from 2008-2011.
It was featured in Honda Tuning Magazine, the online article is linked below.
http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/features/htup_1303_1997_acura_integra_gsr/viewall.html

Thanks again fellow members!
 
honesty the NSX doesn't really have a rear camber "correction" issue.

this would be better placed over at ft86club.com to be honest. you will more feedback there than you'll know to deal with.

also, it's toe that kills tire wear, second the camber.

good luck! sounds like a good project.
 
1st of all. Its nice to see a fellow ME wants to make stuff and to improve design flaws but many have gone down this route with mixed results me included. Google Thom's camber kits here around 2006-2009 and there are many threads. He offered two different types for mild or aggro and I had him install the aggro kit. Make long story short, It was a well made/smart kit but had long term negative effect extended from the oem design limitation that can not circumvent and this process is not reversible. I was lucky I found a new set of oem A-arms to put it back to stock and reduce my rear toe. It was a hard lesson but was good for 20k easy miles.

Besides, when you do stuff like this, you should have your own car to test or borrow your buddy's car but that may not be practical if something did not go as planned. You will have a hard time to find someone here to be your guinea pig. a new set of NSX A-arms will cost almost as much as your own arms.

ft86club.com is a good alternative and less risky to build your name first.
 
RYU said:
honesty the NSX doesn't really have a rear camber "correction" issue.

this would be better placed over at ft86club.com to be honest. you will more feedback there than you'll know to deal with.

also, it's toe that kills tire wear, second the camber.

good luck! sounds like a good project.
Click to expand...


Thank you for the feedback.

- - - Updated - - -

liftnot said:
1st of all. Its nice to see a fellow ME wants to make stuff and to improve design flaws but many have gone down this route with mixed results me included. Google Thom's camber kits here around 2006-2009 and there are many threads. He offered two different types for mild or aggro and I had him install the aggro kit. Make long story short, It was a well made/smart kit but had long term negative effect extended from the oem design limitation that can not circumvent and this process is not reversible. I was lucky I found a new set of oem A-arms to put it back to stock and reduce my rear toe. It was a hard lesson but was good for 20k easy miles.

Besides, when you do stuff like this, you should have your own car to test or borrow your buddy's car but that may not be practical if something did not go as planned. You will have a hard time to find someone here to be your guinea pig. a new set of NSX A-arms will cost almost as much as your own arms.

ft86club.com is a good alternative and less risky to build your name first.
Click to expand...


Thank you for the feedback as well.
I have done some research on the available kits for the NSX. Atleast the Dali Racing, Ayotte (Thom), and Cedar Ridge (TitaniumDave).
While I feel they all had a pretty good general idea for improving the rear camber, I think they missed a certain aspect.
All of those products utilize non-compliance parts.
Which in my opinion non-compliance parts are just not for everyone, especially vehicles that see over 20k miles on them.

My goal is to design a more streetable, more adjustable, replacement arm.
Those hard to find or expensive OEM A-Arms wouldn't be modified. Instead replaced.
No more just replacing the ball joint boots, but perhaps an actual replaceable ball joint.

I do have a very close friend in my shop that is doing a ground-up rebuild on an NSX.
This is extremely helpful as my guinea pig is sitting right there in my work space.
Here is a photo of the rear suspension setup for brainstorming/planning.




Thanks again for the feedback guys.
 
I have Thom's kit.

It was fairly inexpensive for what you get. Once installed it may not be reversible, unless you replace the upper 'A' arms. But if the cost of reversal is just a couple of 'A' arms, that is not a big deal. After all YOU did make the choice to lower the car, otherwise you would not need a camber correction kit. Installation was difficult for DIY, just because of the OEM ball joint. Otherwise it was easy. Build quality was great and I see no negative effects.


I think you have to take in consideration that the NSX is a unique and rare car. I would not expect a JC Whitney like option for this car. I will cost money to install and to reverse. If you can't handle dealing with a camber kit ... DO NOT LOWER THE CAR.

JMHO
Rich Wong
 
SYRfabrication - Seems like you've give this much though. Take it from us owners who have been around a while. Those Honda A-Arms are a work of art in both construction and design. They are incredibly strong and incredibly light. You will have an uphill battle trying to sell the solution you're proposing simply because the need is not really there given the available options in the market.

Like I said.. spend your effort on the BRZ/FR-S. The parts used in that car are mass-produced, high volume, stamped steel parts and provide ZERO adjustment. The NSX is a low volume, high cost vehicle, with ample built-in adjustments (for most people). There is much improvement in the BRZ/FR-S for the fabrication you are talking about. Actually, several vendors are a bit ahead of you. These are just a few...



rearlowerarms.jpg


f7-lca-frs.jpg


st44-2.JPG


08sti_rearcamber_008__38538.1348525003.1280.1280.jpg


kta139.jpg


With some smart folks taking it one step further...
2GBraking_zpsdf3600bd.png
 
I really do appreciate your feedback RYU.

I just feel that I am not trying to justify my goal as necessarily a business plan.
In my honest opinion, despite my success on the outcome of my design/product I enjoy doing this stuff to some degree.
Even if my only customer is the one NSX in my shop, that's okay.

I do agree with many of the points you have made, and realize that all OEM parts are very intensely engineered in their stock forms.
Some of more/less quality than others.
I did look into the frs/brz camber issue after the initial post was made.
It seems that several companies have it covered.
They all utilize the same design concept, and unfortunately I do not have access to a frs/brz.

The reason I took on this project, was because those mass-produced aftermarket companies have not taken on the NSX.
It is probably pretty certain that the reason for this is that the market/demand is relatively small.

But one fact remains. OEM bushings and ball joints are wear items, and they are not replaceable on the NSXs stock arms.

I'm really just fulfilling the requirements of this design project for a new part that has not been created before.
I feel that other 'solutions' have come about, and maybe they are successful, maybe not.. but I feel that options are good, and that is my only intent.
 
I don't see why the arms of the NSX are unique in the way that can't be copied and produced in a small batch but modified for lowered cars to get wrid of those crazy camber values. China is copying every single part in the world.
 
SYRfabrication said:
all OEM parts are very intensely engineered in their stock forms.
>Your answer right there. The oem a-arms are forged alum and uber lightweight, its quite difficult to improve if possible. Even if you have access to the oem blueprint/CMM/3D scanner, then I would even remotely consider copy the geometry correctly but that would take way too long for a school project less working out the bugs and, by the time is done, non of us can afford it. even the McLaren MP4-12C a-arms looks way beefy in comparison. (maybe? due 2 the DF generated at speed).

The reason I took on this project, was because those mass-produced aftermarket companies have not taken on the NSX.
It is probably pretty certain that the reason for this is that the market/demand is relatively small.
>You got it. or try miata.net, there are bunch of people always ready and willing to mod/buy new things for their cars. There are always new vendors pop up, SYR can be another option for them.

But one fact remains. OEM bushings and ball joints are wear items, and they are not replaceable on the NSXs stock arms.
>ditto. unless you want to go mono-ball with TiDave, we are all tuck with OEM that is what majority, non-track-rats are doing. You lower the car, Dial back on toe, and live with the camber, rapid rear tire wear is inherent for all MR especially with low UTQG rating.

I'm really just fulfilling the requirements of this design project for a new part that has not been created before.
I feel that other 'solutions' have come about, and maybe they are successful, maybe not.. but I feel that options are good, and that is my only intent.
>Your intention is admirable. School project has a finite time frame afaik, this particular part is very costly, complex and time consuming to do it right even with proper resources. Dali has been working on this part(the rear) for quite sometime using 4130 and poly and its on their car waiting to shakedown. Not sure if it will ever happen. The intention is the same as your to replace oem incase crash/camber/no oem avail. etc. Its a race part but i am sure its heavier compare to oem.
Click to expand...

Since you have access to a mill, One part I would buy is an alternator relocation kit to where the AC compressor is as the oem alternator is at least ~20lb. and the cast iron mounting plate is at least another 20lb. You can approx. the benefit of CG by moving 40lbs. down low and run a FEA for validation,add up material, machining cost and walla, you have a legit part and a much more doable project to turn in on time. The market is only for those who don't have AC so its even smaller. Some one here has a running prototype but the company who made it has no interests to make it anymore. The cost was ~$380 for the kit. I think this is within the realm of a B. Science deg. a single person senior project. I have 2 photos avail. if you want to go down this route instead.
 
liftnot said:
Since you have access to a mill, One part I would buy is an alternator relocation kit to where the AC compressor is as the oem alternator is at least ~20lb. and the cast iron mounting plate is at least another 20lb. You can approx. the benefit of CG by moving 40lbs. down low and run a FEA for validation,add up material, machining cost and walla, you have a legit part and a much more doable project to turn in on time. The market is only for those who don't have AC so its even smaller. Some one here has a running prototype but the company who made it has no interests to make it anymore. The cost was ~$380 for the kit. I think this is within the realm of a B. Science deg. a single person senior project. I have 2 photos avail. if you want to go down this route instead.
Click to expand...
The alternator mounting plate is 20lbs???
 
I think developing a rear camber correction solution for the NSX is a great idea!
Don't let these negative naysayers slow you down! :tongue::tongue::tongue:
 
I'm an ME and I looked into it as well. Good senior design project. Main issue is you'd want to adjust the upper since it is a barpin connection and it would be awesome to just shim it but with the bolts going vertical shimming doesn't help. Somehow if the sub frame was modified so the bolts went horizontal and the joint was in shear instead you could shim and be done. If that is not possible I agree a new a-arm might be the way to go. Study the max brake torque the rear can generate, do your FBD and do some FEA, design for a B10 of 100k cycles of 0 to max brake torque (panic stop) and that will get close to your fatigue demand. Rubber parts are the way to go. PM if you need anything.
 
I was chatting with a friend of mine who's an ME and showed him this thread. My bad for coming off negative! I took a different spin on it and thought this was an effort to try to make some for production/sales. I just didn't want you to waste any time. Let us know how we can help with your project.
 
Props for this thread, if you can re-design it, go for it. More options the better just as long as the price is reasonable.:smile:
 
stuntman said:
The alternator mounting plate is 20lbs???
Click to expand...

the cast iron mounting plate Coz took off at Nick's told me it was very heavy and I said about 20lbs? he saz about that. either way, its heavy. I gave Nick a pix of an one off bracket for the AC location. I'll push him to get his machinist to make a few. I can't wait to relocate that much weight down low.
 
I would love a rear camber correction kit for the NSX that is an elegant design. Technically my car is not street legal in Hawaii simply because I can't get my rear camber back to within OEM spec at my present lowered stance. Yes, it is a stupid law we have, but we can't modify the cars suspension and pass or yearly safety inspection unless the alignment is back to OEM spec and we have a special reconstruction permit which requires proof of alignment dating back no more than 30 days of applications and a visual inspection. It's a PITA, so having correct spec rear camber would be a major plus for me.
 
Wow, thanks for all the feedback guys.

Tangoman.. Thank you very much. I will definitely be contacting you when I hit the design phase. It is all just brainstorming in my head at the moment, but converting the mounting points to shear mounting points are my initial thoughts as well.

RYU.. All feedback is good feedback, thank you sir.

Timeless1.. Thank you.

Liftnot.. I appreciate you offering alternatives as well. I do admire weight distribution, but I have never gotten very involved with it. For example, my last project had a huge V6 over the front axles. Not the best from a weight distribution aspect, but it was unique and fun!

ChrisK.. Very interesting, I have never heard that in Hawaii. Perhaps my design can help you out!

Thanks again guys, this discussion has been more than helpful thus far.
 
toomanymodz said:
Well, I suppose these guys won't pass the Hawaii camber test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhT3C9mHLZ4
Click to expand...

By law now. Also, any lowered vehicle without the proper Recontruction Permit (We call it RECON) can technically be pulled over by Police and issued a ticket for vehicle modifications without RECON. We can't pass our Annual Safety Inspection with a modified vehicle (Like being lowered, big brakes and so forth) without RECON. Rims and exhausts are okay. To obtain this RECON permit, we need to go to a single inspection station and have the vehicle inspected for safe modifications and 100% compliance with city ordinance and state and federal laws So, no clear corners, no removal of side marker blinkers, no tinted head or tail lights, no aftermarket HID kits and on and on. Also, alignment must be within factory OEM spec with proof (Alignment papers) dated no later than 30 days prior to your inspection appointment. Once you get RECON, you can then get your annual safety inspection thereafter as long as your RECON is not revoked.

That said, many of us do have certain stations that let us slide to get our annual safety inspections. However, many of these hook up places are becoming scarce because some of these stations are getting caught letting people slide by the city an getting their license to perform safety inspections revoked, or getting fined so they no longer are willing to take the risk.

To show you how bad it can become, to save myself from the trouble of getting an inspection done only to have it put on hold because of my lowered NSX, I actually swap in my stock suspension every year when it's time for my inspection. It takes me about an hour and a half. Then I take another hour to put my coilovers with iLift lift kit back on after I pass. I also remove my HID kit and put the stock halogen bulbs back on. Even thought cosmetic parts like body kits are perfectly legal and exempt from RECON, I take off my carbon fiber NSXR replica spoiler and put the stock one back on. Basically, I make my NSX look as stock as I can make it within reason just so I have a better chance at passing and not having to come back with the corrections made later.

While I could fake getting the alignment papers within OEM Spec simply by aligning the vehicle when then car is not so low and still able to get back to within OEM spec by the factory adjustments, it would be nice to have within spec and my desired ride height.
 
The alternator mounting bracket is indeed a heavy steel (20lbs is a reasonable guess) beast, which truly seems out of place on the NSX.
Maybe they made it that robust due to the fact it also supports an engine lift point?

I would like to find a way to replace the lower rear ball joints (the ones attached to the uprights) it appears they are held in by a spring clip, so if we could come up with a part number or equivalent it should be replaceable (???)

Brian
 
sca037 said:
The alternator mounting bracket is indeed a heavy steel (20lbs is a reasonable guess) beast, which truly seems out of place on the NSX.
Maybe they made it that robust due to the fact it also supports an engine lift point?

I would like to find a way to replace the lower rear ball joints (the ones attached to the uprights) it appears they are held in by a spring clip, so if we could come up with a part number or equivalent it should be replaceable (???)

Brian
Click to expand...


I pressed the original ones out without a problem.
I am looking into some cross referencing to see if I can find a compatible OEM part #.
 

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