Post your experiences as an Instructor.

[NSXLuvr]

Hey guys,

I have been asked to become an instructor for our local DE organization. I have mixed feelings about doing it and wanted to ask the prime gang how they felt about it.

I know plenty of people who do it because it basically makes the DE free. BUT - I don't really care about saving the $275. My concern is for my safety and also for the lack of track time since I will focusing more of my energy into instruction and less towards being a better driver. I have heard that being an instructor has made some people a better driver. What is the Prime's experience.

Thanks.

Ritesh.

 

[nsxnut]

Hey guys,

I have been asked to become an instructor for our local DE organization. I have mixed feelings about doing it and wanted to ask the prime gang how they felt about it.

I know plenty of people who do it because it basically makes the DE free. BUT - I don't really care about saving the $275. My concern is for my safety and also for the lack of track time since I will focusing more of my energy into instruction and less towards being a better driver. I have heard that being an instructor has made some people a better driver. What is the Prime's experience.

Thanks.

Ritesh.

I have been an instructor for some time. A good day is when you can help some one improve.
They have a good time and you will as well.:smile:

I have been in so many nice cars. Sometimes I provide a session or two of coaching
they are new to a particular track but not do driving on the track. Some times it is there first day.
I help out as needed.

I am usually busy. My focus is not trying to turn the fastest lap time.
I don't mind being busy.

Depending on the DE organization and schedule you may get similar track time as a paid participant.

I would agree being an instructor has made me a better driver. Track awareness will improve.
You will surely get a lot of seat time.

Most of the novice drivers are not going very fast. Offs are very rare.
I talk my student through the turn is needed.
My goal is to get them to drive a clean smooth line. I state this before we start.
If they are going to fast for there ability I'll real them in.


I have two helmets. One for when I instruct and one for when I drive.
It is nice to put on a cool helmet for when I go out by my self. :smile:

Hope this helps.

Later,
Don

 

[92 white 0650]

I hate to say it but I gotta agree with Don. J/K. He nailed it.

Helping a novice improve is sometimes as much fun as laying down some really go fast laps in your own car.

Get a ChatterBox intercom; gotta have one; screaming in the car can be misunderstood and a mistake waiting to happen.

Give it a try at least. :wink:

 

[SFNSXguy]

Don and Ted have given you chapter AND verse... but I have a couple questions: how long have you been doing track events? and... do you have any real competition experience?

If the answer to the first question is "less than five years" then you shouldn't be instructing.

If the answer to the second question is "yes" and it too is more than five years, then you have my blessing.

Over the years I've seen too many folks "instructing" that need some themselves.

You seem hesitant, that should tell you something.

Instructing is very tough, I come home more tired than doing 500 laps at Sears Point :biggrin: ... don't get me wrong, I've really enjoy it, but I've had competition licenses (SCCA, IMSA, FIA) since 1965... I've paid my dues.... be sure you've paid yours before you jump in.

 

[Hrant]

Agree with the above. The key is to accept the responsibility and commitment even if that means less track for you. There are a few instructors who will let students go solo by afternoon so they can have double track time.

Many of us have instructed numerous times without even driving our cars on the NSX; just helping the organization and having some R&R while sniffing high octane and breathing brake dust ... :biggrin:

 

[docjohn]

It is work.....Each student is different,just as each person brings thier own personality hardwired you have to try and adapt your teaching style to get through to them.Sometimes you and the student are oil and water, in that case you have to know when to swap instructers.Your driving fast is nice and all but instructing novices is all about the myriad little things we all take for granted,like being in the right place at the right time to line up,track rules/safety, hydration, status of the car, As the responsibal party in the car you have to spoon feed all this new data in such a way so as to not overload the circuits.On a hot day esp. if you are driving your own car you will be wanting your pool and a nap by days end.

 

[nsxnut]

Being a good instructor is being a good teacher.

Having a competition licence and tons of racing experience may indicate
you are a good driver but doesn't indicate you are a good instructor.

Like Docjohn indicated everyone is different.

For me it was obvious. My first track experience "weekend" I had two really good instructors.
I thought to my self some day that is what I want to do.

Later,
Don

 

[Hrant]

For me it was obvious. My first track experience "weekend" I had two really good instructors.
I thought to my self some day that is what I want to do.

Well said especially for on track instructors.

Ironically, I had a "failure to communicate" with my first instructor - we had different interpretations of "gas it" from his 4 cylinder Toyota GT; he had never been in an NSX ......... Also, being an educator (adjunct prof. for working graduate students in another life), I also knew back then that there most definitely must be a better way of instructing novices - at least in the instructional materials. I didn't care back then nor do I care now about the underlying physics of vector forces, the degrees of angle slip, the coefficient of tire friction ......... Six months later Grinstead and I had a new instructional handout targeted to novices (with emphasis to NSX drivers). That was some 10 years ago; as they say, the rest is history.

 

[d.n]

Being a good instructor is being a good teacher.

Having a competition licence and tons of racing experience may indicate
you are a good driver but doesn't indicate you are a good instructor.

Like Docjohn indicated everyone is different.

The above is great stuff. Hrant's comment about commitment hits home with me too. I think when you agree to show up and put the instructor's hat on, you are an instructor firstly and foremost and a driver second.

I've only instructed formally once so take my newbie opinion as just that.

Safety really wasn't much of a concern for me as the novice group tends to move at a very slow pace. Especially the first session. You'll also be in control of the breaking points and overall I felt very safe. As a disclaimer, I know some guys that will not get into the passenger seat with a novice at Willow Springs (big track) due to the high speed sweeper and the risk of roll over there. So take that for what it's worth.

As for learning, I definitely did grow a bit as a driver, but it wasn't something that couldn't be gleaned by going for ride with other drivers who aren't novices. It's funny how much easier it is to notice things from the passenger seat.

The whole experience was a positive one for me. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

 

[SFNSXguy]

Having a competition licence and tons of racing experience may indicate
you are a good driver but doesn't indicate you are a good instructor.

AMEN to that!

 

[scottjua]

I've been instructing for the past 3 years now, and been driving at the track since 2003. By that I mean, I was going at least once every two months, some months 2-3 times before instructing.

Since instructing, I've only gotten faster in my own seat time, as sitting side seat you take yourself out of the driving equation and are able to really dial in on how to negotiate a series of apexes. You're more able to really dissect the track layout and nit pick at little things and you'll be surprised by how you instinctively start to notice your own deficiencies and fix them. Sometimes you even learn along with/be taught by a student, as their "mistakes" and difference of line can sometimes open your eyes to little nuances that work better.

I get a HUGE amount of enjoyment from seeing the students really start to put a lap together. So much so, that I may go a whole day without even driving my own car more than a few laps (sometimes not at all) for confirmation, or student ride alongs. On those occasions I'm ecstatic at their progress, and start to nerd out and clap and cheer them along when I can see and feel them hone in on what they're doing and having a blast.

Granted I don't have a blast with every student, and sometimes you have to really adapt your teaching style to accommodate different learning styles.

There are moments when it really seems they just aren't grasping what you're asking them to do, and when you have a communication breakdown it's your job as their instructor to figure out HOW to instruct them so they aren't frustrated with the experience. Remember to be patient, and when they don't get it verbally, ask them if they learn better visually. Then you can either show them (you drive their car, or yours), or in some cases guide them with a pre-warned/pre-discussed friendly hand on the wheel.

Also there may be times when you just can't get through to them and/or you're not feeling it.

I've had a few students with no concept of smoothness have me puke my guts out, and some that were pretty close. In those instances, I always find a fellow instructor to swap students with, and generally a change up is all that's needed.

Bring some dramamine with your just in case.

A communication system is a good thing to have as it will definitely save your voice at times and make the whole experience much more relaxed. I don't have one right now, so I'm reduced to raising my voice.

For safety, the main thing is to trust your instincts. Don't take their signed tech sheet as gospel and do your own assessment. Walk around the car and take a look at tire condition, and other parts, and take the time while sitting on the grid to talk to the student about the car and what they've done/how they maintain it.

If you don't feel 100% safe, don't get in. AND once on the track, if your student or their car scares the begeezus out of you, pull into the pits and get out. You owe the student your effort in teaching, not your bodily safety.

If you get in a car with a cage, make sure there's a harness at least. Better if it has a harness, to also use a HANS device... you never know.

NEVER get into a caged car without a helmet, even for parade laps, or novice yellow flag runs. Just wear the helmet!

IF you get to drive the students car, be respectful. You DO need to figure out if the car will do what you want the student to ask of it, but you don't need to go 10/10ths and balls to the walls. You'll probably get the chance to drive some pretty awesome machinery from time to time, but always remember to treat it better than your own.

Just remember to have fun with it. ^_^

Here's a cool video (cool to me anyway) my student posted recently from the last track day. It's got pretty good audio of my typical instruction on a first session of the day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaEN5F0YEFk

Some students I need to walk them through each turn...every session... some get it and let them start to put it together. It's interesting sometimes to see them notice their mistakes and correct them.

You can tell by this later session on the same day, I'm more quiet and I try to let him dial it in, and give hints where I can. He was a little timid in trusting the car, but toward the end of the day we sort of got there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCcJeVFk3X0

and here for Fun, one student rode with me. We just went out and I try to go generally 90-95% on a warm up lap to get the tires hot, and he was a little afraid. It's not a pretty lap, but it's funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3geIv9RU3so

 

[NSXLuvr]

Thanks guys. I have been doing DE's since 2003 and was getting a NASA license when my wife got pregnant with our second child in 2009. That pretty much ended my tracking days until this spring. Going to the Instructor clinic with thedriversedge.net this weekend. Thanks for the input.

 

[dquarasr2]

Scottjua, your comments were spot on.

I know this thread has some good points in it but I think I can add a unique perspective. Hopefully I did not come to this party too late and can actually contribute something new to this thread.

This is the first time I am admitting it publicly, but a couple of years ago there was a wrecked NSX that was bought by a Primer in Budapest, Hungary, who asked how the car received its damage and if anyone knew how. I posted that I knew the car augered into the tire wall at Sebring Turn 3. What I didn't admit was that I was in it at the time.

My point? As much as is feasible, DO be in control of what your student is doing.

Don't like what he/she is doing? STATE IT IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS.

Student not listening? Tell the student to dial it down and head for pit lane where you can have a talk.

Student still not listening? GET LOUD, RIGHT AWAY!

My incident involved a crash in the first heavy braking zone of the first green flag lap of the first hot session of the day. During the no-pass yellow-flag warmup track orientation session, my 16-year-old student was pushing 9/10ths. I asked him to take it easy. He had a couple of Skippy schools under his belt, and actually did OK with line and car control, but, come on. Maybe Skippy Jr. knew more than his instructor.

On the warm-up lap for the first hot session, he's going 9/10ths, even 10/10ths in some spots. I'm trying to be diplomatic and calming, saying things like: "Slow down, work up to the speed, no need to impress me, take it easy, there's plenty of time today to work on things, let's work on line and eyes first."

In retrospect, what I should have done was shouted "SLOW THE F*CK DOWN!! NOW!!!"

Funny, right before we augered in, I had already made the decision to ask him to pit. I was going to wait until we got to the straight between 6 and 7 where I'd have time to talk with him and explain that we're going in to talk. I didn't make it that far.

Another lesson: The car had new brakes, installed by a professional mechanic. I asked if they were bedded in and was told "yes". I should have asked "how?". Ask all kinds of questions about your student's experience and their car.

The reason for this crash was a really long pedal combined with no margin, car wouldn't slow enough, then the turn was coming up, then the student tried to make the turn anyway, front tires friction circle exceeded, and straight off we went.

That turn is approached about 110 mph and there's not much runoff. I suspect we left the pavement and onto the grass around 50 mph and hit the tire wall about 40 mph. Buried the car up to the side mirrors in the tires and halfway down the side, so the entire front cap and the all panels of the passenger side were dented, and the windshield broken. No air bag deployment, so it wasn't that bad of g-forces. Neither of us were hurt. I just had some soreness where the stock shoulder belt caught me.

Another unique perspective: on Thanksgiving Day this past year, 2010, I crashed a pit bike at the end of my street. Throttle stuck at the end of my block, couldn't slow it down and turn it quickly enough, front tire hit the grass, I went this way and the bike went that way. Did a face plant in grass at 25 mph. Broke the C4 vertebra in my neck and bulged the disc between C6 and C7. Left arm and shoulder were paralyzed for about 4 hours. Finally got full motion and feeling back after about two months, rehab'd everything back to 98% by end of May. Doc gave me clearance to track again. Still haven't but plan to when the weather cools.

Point of that last story? After being injured like that I swore I'll never get in a car with a novice again. I used to be pretty cavalier about it, not really worrying.

I've had great students that were perfect all day. I've had great students that spun. I've had poor students that spun, and poor students that never got above 5/10ths. But I know I can control the level of risk I am taking when I drive; I can't control the risk I take when my student drives.

Lemme count: I've spun or crashed while instructing four times now. One was a 747 pilot in an NSX that learned staggeringly quickly. He spun towards the end of the day at the most daunting turn at Homestead, Turn 10, learned so quickly he didn't realize he was approaching 11/10ths but he had done so perfectly all day that we were both surprised.

One was a spin in the carousel at Sebring, and I told that guy he was going to spin some time that day if he didn't stop wheel-whipping. Never did figure it out.

One was a spin in turn 15 at Sebring, and I told that guy he was going to spin if he didn't stop porpoising the car (on the brakes, off the brakes to blip the throttle, then on the brakes again) 'cuz he didn't know how to heel-toe. He did great until that turn when he forgot to NOT do that, and of course, loaded the front tires, unloaded them, turned in, then REALLY loaded the front tires and unloaded the rears, after he turned in.

And one was the fateful crash at Sebring T3.

I also had another student that, no matter how many laps I showed him the line, no matter that I drove his car to show him the line, continued to enter Homestead T1, a 100mph left-hand sweeper into the infield, FROM THE LEFT SIDE OF THE TRACK. I tried every way to explain it, until I gave up and asked another instructor to ride with him. But, he went home after lunch. Obviously his instructor sucked.

Is it all doom and gloom? Absolutely not. It is INCREDIBLY gratifying to take someone who, in the morning, does not even know which way the track goes, and is death-gripping the steering wheel wondering why he/she signed up, to smooth, fast, good lines, all while relaxed and having fun in the afternoon.

And incredibly gratifying to take a problem student, one that can't get signed off even after three-four events, woefully inconsistent, and pinpointing that their eyes are the problem, teach them where to look so the track "slows down" in front of them, and having them then nail every turn-in, apex, and track out lap after lap, and having them signed off.

Or another with poor braking technique, and having them signed off, finally.

Etc., etc.

I will miss that part of it, but at this point, eight months after braking my neck, I'm still stating that I will not get in the car with a novice again (even though I was not injured in a car crash), except maybe to volunteer to do check out rides. And I'll also only get in a car again for fun laps with people I know I can trust while out there.

Sorry for the long post but this thread definitely struck a nerve with me, the one that comes out the C6/C7 nerve hole and controls the left arm. :smile:

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Well, there's more to the Hrant history

Well said especially for on track instructors.

.........as they say, the rest is history.

Hrant, you forgot to chronicle your racing history for Harry's benefit. Remember that time in the Willows' market where you raced shopping carts with Al?

May 2000, right? ROFLMAO :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[Hrant]

Re: Well, there's more to the Hrant history

Hrant, you forgot to chronicle your racing history for Harry's benefit. Remember that time in the Willows' market where you raced shopping carts with Al?

May 2000, right? ROFLMAO :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Right Sadly back then no one was taking pictures to prove it! But then again, things do catch up with smack talkers :redface: :wink: Need I say more :tongue:
http://nsxprime.com/forum/showpost.php?p=484288&postcount=30

 

[nsxnut]

I instruct for a group that has rules. They are good about enforcing them. I some time steward. :smile:

The rules are intended to keep things in control and safe.
Three strikes you are done for the day.
Blow a red flag two strikes. Blow a yelow or black 1 strike.
Pass in Tight corners aggressively 1 strike.
Two off 1 strike. etc...

With these in place know one has been sent home that I know of.
It just make people think about it. There are consequences.
This group is attaching some high end cars.

Out of about 130 or so students I have only two spin. Never been in an accident.:smile::smile::smile:

When I start off I state we want to take it easy and drive at least two clean laps.
I'll encourage you to speed up as long as we are driving a clean line.
The first lap is a full course yellow.

I guess it can happen. I can see how some think they are invaluable.
Hell nothing can happen I have an instructor in the car.

I have had only one or two students that will drive straight off the track if you dont tell them to turn.
They still have a good time but I am spent at the end of the day. This is very rare luckily.

I have had a few that are exceptional. A true natural.
They can also be challenging as they get everything and excel.
One guy was an x motorcycle racer.
Another guy showed up to spend a weekend with his father and share his fathers Spec Miata.
I had him on his second day and he was turning faster lap times than his father.
Is father had been racing in SCCA for a few years. :smile:

If some one tells me that they play this course on Xbox "Laguna Seca" I'll
quickly tell them the game isn't anything like the track.

I have a chatter box. This way they can hear me.
I am also big on hand signals and pointing. I tell them this up front.

Most are great with it. I have only had one person who was annoyed.

I have had multiple people try and tip me and hand me money. I won't take it.
I simply ask that they put in a good word for me with the organizer.