Please Help! Track Insurance

[john576]

I am enrolled in my first driving school event later this month. Just got off the phone with my insurance carrier (Progressive), they will NOT cover any NSX damage incurred on a closed track whether its a driving school or racing event

Please let me know who your insurance company is if they cover either :
1. Drivers school
and/or
2. Racing events

TIA
-John

 

[Hrant]

First step is read your policy to make sure if there is such an exclusion for a fact. If not, then do not take their word over the phone unless they show you excatly where in your policy it states so.

HTH

 

[rrwildman]

John:

When I asked my State Farm agent about it several years ago I was told that I would be covered participating in such an event. I haven't asked lately, nor have I really put it to the test.

- Richard
'92 Blk/Blk

 

[supercharged]

There seems to be two types of policies - one that says if you even read a car magazine and go to a track you're not covered and the other:

For my carrier the distinction seems to be if the event is timed or there are places awarded. If you are in a HPDE it is covered but you still get "charged" with the accident in the sense that they - the insurance carrier - keep track of it as a claim. This was my experience last year when I backed into the wall at BW. I was made whole without a hassle but they warned me not to do it again or my rates would increase.

Groups that run legit HPDEs will generally write you something to that effect if needed. Your worry about open track days is that the other guys usually are posting their times and exploits of the day on the internet about an hour after the event. Recently, a friend of mine at work totalled his car at an Infamous Nor Cal track, a video from the following car hit the net the next day.

 

[ilya]

State Farm's policy does still cover you as long as it was a non-competitive and untimed event like an HPDE. I just checked into this myself very recently.

 

[wildbill846]

Ok, if one does decide to participate in actual race events (Wheel to wheel, time trial, or autocross) is there insurance specifically for that?

 

[princxixor]

I'm getting ready to sign up for NSXPO including the HSDE sessions. I've just spent a good deal of the morning researching insurance for said event. The more I do, the more concerned I get that this will not be covered. I have Progressive, and their exclusion policy reads:

5. bodily injury or property damage resulting from any pre-arranged or organized racing, speed or demolition contest, stunting activity, or in practice or preparation for any such contest or activity;

It's this last bit that concerns me, as the argument could be made that the only purpose of HSDE would be in preparation for racing. I think that is bogus, but it doesn't mean the argument wouldn't be used.

Anyone have any thoughts on this verbage? And, should I speak with someone in the underwriting department to verify before signing up?

Other reading on this subject:

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1182&highlight=track+insurance
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11265&highlight=track+insurance
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/ownership/insurance.htm

 

[Vytas]

5. bodily injury or property damage resulting from any pre-arranged or organized racing, speed or demolition contest, stunting activity, or in practice or preparation for any such contest or activity;

This event is certainly not a race since there will be no cars racing for position on the track or a trophy. It is not a speed contest since there are no timed laps. There are no stunts of any kind allowed on the track premesis.

I see this verbage in many auto insurance contracts. I spoke with my former insurance company about open track/driving school coverage and was told I was covered. They emphasized that if I was in an actual race with other cars for a trophy/prize money or being timed while taking laps that I would not be covered. I recently switched to another insurance that had much lower rates and their policy states the same. Calling them they assured me several times that I'm covered at a driving school environment and even autocross events (even though these are timed events).

When in doubt, call and make sure you're covered before putting four wheels on track.

 

[Ponyboy]

Hmmm...I have Progressive and it states no where in my policy that I am NOT covered for DE events. Either way, I wouldn't trust what the insurance company rep says vs. what is stated in your contract.

Read up big boy.

 

[matteni]

I doubt any of them are going to put it in writing that you are covered so it comes down to the amount of the loss - your value as a customer - and whatever they are feeling if they want to fight it.

I would hope for the best (you would be covered) but be prepared for the worst (they can resist and you could be out the entire amount of your car or more).

Can you imaging being in a trial with a jury of average people and they see pictures and video from a HPDE? Everyone with numbers on their car, exceeding all known speed limits, corner workers, helmets, many folks driving full on racing cars, many folks with competition licenses working on their lines, etc.

I doubt you would get a lot of sympathy from a judge or jury IMO. There are riders specifically for HPDE's (or at least there were). I would do a search and consider this if you are really worried. Just my O.

That said - if you set some realistic goals, don't get ahead of yourself, listen to your instructor, do a little homework, and keep your ego in check - my experiance has been it is a safe endevour with few risks.

Just remember 2 things:

- Most people take the slow curves too fast and the fast curves too slow

- typically the fastest person on the first lap is not the fastest person on the last lap AND always seems to be the one to hit something first

 

[Ponyboy]

Just a couple interesting thoughts

I doubt any of them are going to put it in writing that you are covered so it comes down to the amount of the loss - your value as a customer - and whatever they are feeling if they want to fight it.

If it's not covered, then it is covered. Simple as that.

I would hope for the best (you would be covered) but be prepared for the worst (they can resist and you could be out the entire amount of your car or more).

That is VERY wise advice.

Can you imaging being in a trial with a jury of average people and they see pictures and video from a HPDE? Everyone with numbers on their car, exceeding all known speed limits, corner workers, helmets, many folks driving full on racing cars, many folks with competition licenses working on their lines, etc.

Hehe...I can imagine that. I can also imagine an adequate lawyer painting any and all insurance companies as godless fair claim denying big corporate swindling out to get you money machines that exist at the expense of paying minions. Who hasn't been pissed off at an insurance company, at least, once in their life?

That said - if you set some realistic goals, don't get ahead of yourself, listen to your instructor, do a little homework, and keep your ego in check - my experiance has been it is a safe endevour with few risks.

Again, sage advice. Beware the red mist!

 

[ANYTIME]

I'll chime in on this, since I have had a directly related experience at Willow Springs with my NSX. Long frickin' story, so please bear with me and my childlike writing.
Signed up for the Ferrari/Pantera driving school/track day, and figured I would go and have some fun on the track, take it easy and not hurt the car(you know, crash it). So, I get to the track and go to the morning meeting and get the pep talk about what you can and cannot during the day at this track event. So, off I go to the school for green peas(a must attend), and find out what to do on the track, when to pass and how to enter/exit(sounds like I am going to a race, huh?). Instructors are provided and they are going to take us on the track in some used dodge 19 passenger vans(odd, there are used car tags/buyers guides still on the vans, like they are going back to the lot they came from). So, like sardines, we fill the vans up and start driving around the track like you would drive a sports car, except you have 23 people in a top heavy, long ass wheel base VAN. Doesn't matter, we follow the correct lines and whip around the course faster than any of us green peas will ever do in our cars. Sound scary? You bet! Responsible? NO way!!! Anyway, back to the story at hand. Ok, I get in the car and look for these "instructors"(you know, the ones they said had to have long sleeve shirts and pants on). So, up comes John Doe Instructor wearing shorts and short sleeve shirt(at this point, a red flag was suppose to start waving), and proceeds to ask me if I am ready. Yeah, let's go. I told him I have never been on a race track and I want to take it easy. He says fine. We start slowly around the track and get the car/tires warm. There are 4 run groups, ranging from inexperienced to very experienced(1-4). I am in group 1. Everything seems fine, except...., I am having problems with turn 3. I tell my instructor this, and every time we pass thru turn 3. He tells me to watch the braking cone, and start braking later and later, before I start turning. For those of you who don't know what this is called, it's called trail braking. This is used when you have a front engined/rear wheel drive car, not an NSX. This guy is showing me how not to drive and NSX. He has me stay out with the run group 2, meaning I must drive faster than before-not good) Can you see what is going to happen? If not, read further. Turn 3 is coming up and he tells me wait real far into the turn to brake and then turn in. Who am I to question? This is a driving school. So, I do what he says and sure enough, the back end wants to come around as I am turning left, damn. As soon as this happens, the instructor yells, OH $HIT! You said it! Typical reaction? You guessed it LIFT off of the throttle and brake(dk should have told be to mash the throttle). The absolute wrong thing to do in a mid-engine car. That meant the weight of the engine in the rear was going to keep coming around and swap ends with the front. I tried to save her, but it was to late, the incoming wall was a magnet and I was steel(aluminum in this case). S l o w m o t i o n b e g i n. Steering and braking do nothing on gravel, so I might as well hold on for impact, and boy, is this some impact coming. BAMMMM! Can hardly get out, the door is hitting the wall. Reality sits in, I'm fire+trucked. Tow truck comes out, takes me directly passed every last person there(so they drive slow, from that point on). Put the truck on a friends trailer, call the insurance co. and tell them exactly what happened. This was a driving school, so I am OK! Right? No, not really, in a grey area for the next few months. The insurance co. is in a fact finding mode. I tell them I was at a school and it is controlled, with no trophies, start/finish or any other preparation for a race. Sounds good, huh? Oh, you were on a race track? Yeah, I was. Well, in the claims department, we can only approve claims, not deny them. That my friend, is up to the legal department. This is were your claim has been sent. Why?, I ask. Because you were on a racetrack and we think you were racing. No, I was at a school and was not racing. Well, we thing you were, so that is why the legal department has it. Great, I call them and ask what they need from me( no one is calling me, I have to do all the calling). They said give us the names and numbers of the friends that went with you. Ok, anything else? Yes, the track number, the ferrari?pantera club contacts. Alright, you have all that, now how long is this going to take? Keep in mind, I am thinking positive and want my car fixed or totalled. Well, we have up to a year to settle. No way, a year!!! I am making insurance payments, registration and car payments. Can I stop those? NO. Fast forward 6 mos., yes I said 6 mos.. The ins. co. hasn't called anybody on my list that I provided and any facts they have were given to them by me. I waited this long, while nothing was been happening with this so called investigation. I have to hire a lawyer to get some results. the lawyer forces their hand to either pay the claim or deny it. If it is denied, then a lawsuit would be filed. They have me come in for a deposition and ask me stuff from when I was born. The best one was: How long have you been driving? I got my license at 16(hey, that was easy). Next. And you are how old? Uh, 39(uh, ask better questions). So, you have been driving for, 23 years and you feel like you needed a driving school for what reason? Let me think....... To improve my driving skills as to avoid an accident and become a safer driver!!??(good answer) The deposition ended at that point. They decided to settle and fix the car. Oh no, 43k in damages on a 65k valued car? Yes, we are going to fix it. But wait, the owner of the body shop said it would never be the same. Don't care, it's a numbers thing, not about anything else. So, I put on the thinking cap. The palomar NSX that was rolled lightly was sold to a salvage co. for 20-25k. Hey, have them sell mine to a salvage co. and just give me the difference? A salvage co. came out, looked at the car and gave them a price of what they would buy it for. They decided to take that route and paid me off, including taxes. Moral of the story? Have your ins. co. put in writing that you can go on a track and be covered if something happens. One of my friends inquired about this and they actually threaten to cancel him when they found out what he was thinking of doing. He immediately called and found another ins. co. that would cover him, canceling his old carrier. I am not telling this story to deter anyone from attending a track event/school, but only to warn of potential hazards that come with taking your car on the track. Good instructors(mid-engine savy) are of utmost importance.
Sincerely,
JOhn

 

[nsxtasy]

I have Progressive, and their exclusion policy reads:

5. bodily injury or property damage resulting from any pre-arranged or organized racing, speed or demolition contest, stunting activity, or in practice or preparation for any such contest or activity;

It's this last bit that concerns me

This language was obviously written to cover not just a race itself, but also the qualifying and practice activities prior to the race. Usually these are all held the same weekend, with practice and qualifying the day or two before the race itself.

John (ANYTIME), as for your unfortunate experience, based on your description, I don't think the problem was in trail braking (which is not the same thing as moving your braking points later and later) or by the instructor's lack of knowledge of the handling of a mid-engine car. Rather, IMO the problem was caused by your instructor (a) failing to give you the chance to slowly work on skills and the line and only then gradually increase speed, one lap at a time, and (b) forcing you to go faster than you were capable and comfortable going. Unfortunately, you are stuck with the consequences...

 

[matteni]

This language was obviously written to cover not just a race itself, but also the qualifying and practice activities prior to the race. Usually these are all held the same weekend, with practice and qualifying the day or two before the race itself.

John (ANYTIME), as for your unfortunate experience, based on your description, I don't think the problem was in trail braking (which is not the same thing as moving your braking points later and later) or by the instructor's lack of knowledge of the handling of a mid-engine car. Rather, IMO the problem was caused by your instructor (a) failing to give you the chance to slowly work on skills and the line and only then gradually increase speed, one lap at a time, and (b) forcing you to go faster than you were capable and comfortable going. Unfortunately, you are stuck with the consequences...

For all you newbees reading this - listen up - here is a guy who not only has been an instructor for years - he has over 8,000 and counting safe and accident free miles on the racetrack.

If everyone was as safe and methodical as NSXTasy - there would be no question of being covered at the track.

 

[nsxtasy]

he has over 8,000 and counting safe and accident free miles on the racetrack.

Actually, I have 8,717 safe and accident free miles on the track in my NSX alone. I also have 1,994 track miles in my Integra Type R, maybe 1,000 in the GS-R which preceded it, another 5,000 in the CRX which preceded the GS-R, and a few more in assorted other cars. But who's counting?

If everyone was as safe and methodical as NSXTasy - there would be no question of being covered at the track.

Yes and no. The simple truth of the matter is that an accident can happen to anyone - including me - no matter how careful you are. Hindsight is 20/20, and there is no magic formula that will guarantee that you, or I, or anyone else, will not have an accident on the track.

However, there are a few general guidelines that I have found will reduce the chances of one. Briefly:

1. Understand what the line is. The line is the fastest way around the track. Realize that when you are on the line, you will find out where you can go faster. Realize that when you are off the line, you will find out that you cannot go as fast as you had been going on the line.

2. Understand what an early apex and a late apex are. An early apex - created either by turning in too early, or not turning the wheel sharply enough - will cause you to run out of track at the exit (trackout). Learn to recognize when you early apex soon enough to react accordingly, by not adding throttle. After a while, you can learn to judge whether your entry was early or not by seeing where your trackout resulted.

3. Know what to do if you go off the track - keep the car going straight, avoid abrupt turns, don't feel a need to jerk the wheel to get the car back onto the track. Ease off the throttle, drive alongside the track and/or with two wheels on, regain control of the car, and ease it back onto the track.

Note that these first three points are things you can learn about before you ever go out on the track. And finally:

4. Start by going slow and learning the line. Once you are fairly close to the line with some consistency, then increase speed - and do so gradually, a little bit at a time, lap after lap.

5. Only go as fast as you are comfortable going. Your instructor should be telling you where you can go faster if you are comfortable doing so - but if you're not, don't (and feel free to make your instructor aware of this). Don't forget, driving on the track is supposed to be fun - a LOT of fun.