Opinions on the KVR/AP Racing brakes

[sparky]

I'm looking to fit track-capable brakes and am currently leaning towards the KVR/AP Racing brake kit from SoS:

http://scienceofspeed.com/products/braking_performance_parts/NSX/KVR/

In my experinace AP Racing have a very good reputation, but I thought I should check with real life experiences of fellow NSX'ers who've gone down this path.

[Apologies if this has been covered in other threads, but the NSX prime search function is useless when looking for terms like "AP racing" ... all it finds is a gazillion posts with "racing" and it ignores any 2 or 3 letter acronyms and to make matters worse, as far as I can tell, there's no "match all words" search option ?! ]

 

[docjohn]

I know Peter Mills in our NE gang has put many track miles on his AP kit from SoS.The only issues he had were tremendous shudder from time to time which was likely due to uneven pad deposits rather than warping.

 

[Oyagi]

I have a set of these on my NSX for the past year and a half and love them:
Front brakes: 13" AP Racing slotted rotors with custom anodized gold hats with "NT800035 Honda NSX" engraved. AP Racing 4 piston calipers, ferodo pads. Volk Racing CE28N 18x8, +38 in gold.

Rear brakes: 13" AP Racing slotted rotors with custom gold anodized hats. oem rear calipers. Volk Racing CE28N 19x9.5, +36.

These are pics taken when I first got them. I ended up getting the rear calipers powercoated black and I painted the "NSX" yellow to match the fronts.

Like DocL said, if you build up uneven deposits they will act like they're warped, but they are not (I brought my car back to Kvr..they are local to me) and Terry confirmed they are fine. My only complaint is that the pads chosen by KVR are too noisy for me, so my next pad will probably be Pagids which I hear are more dusty, wears quicker but will not sound like I am down to my wear bars :biggrin:

Huge stopping improvement over oem, no fade whatsoever. I'm really pleased with them. Talk to Terry at KVR and tell him John with the black nsx sent you. He did a lot of the development work for the kit with my car. One common misconception with BBK is the bigger/more pistons is better idea. Not necessarily true with a lightweight MR platform like the nsx. 13", 4pots are more than adequate and very well balanced with the weight distribution of the nsx.

PM me if you need more info.

 

[sparky]

Oyagi

Good feedback, especially about the uneven deposits. Is this avoided by simply keeping the brakes clean? How often do you do this?

I have two sets of wheels, Rays (Volk) CE28N 17" F + 17" R (same style as yours) and Work emotion CR-kai 18" R / 17" F. I purchased the Work set for the NSX, the 17" Rays I had from a previous non-NSX car so required spacers to correct the offsets.

As you would now the Rays are amongst the lightest wheels around, so I plan to use them on track. I'm pretty sure these brakes will fit in 17" wheels at front ... but perhaps you could measure the gap from the oouter diameter points of your front calipers to the inside surface of your 18" rims and let me know how much room there is?

I agree some people get way bigger brakes than needed. I tracked a 2002 Boxster S some years back with very similar weight and distribution to NSX (a tad heavier). It's 318 x 28mm front discs never faded - excellent. So I expected these KVR discs + AP racing calipers are about ideal for NSX, and it's good to get some confirmation.

PS: I'm amazed you could get such large diameter wheels to fit. My car is lowered around 1.25" (bilsteins) and from bitter experience I would have thought there's no way I could fit 18" rims at front. Even 19" at rear is impressive! your tyres must be very low profile, say 30 or 35 ?

cheers

 

[sparky]

I just tried the KVR/AP template from SoS site against both style of front wheel. Inside wheel diameter clearance is comfortable for both wheels, but clearance between spokes and calipers is too tight on the Work wheels, so looks like I'll need to use my spare 5mm spacer for them.

The Rays have front offset of 50mm, with my current 20mm spacer making this effectively a 30mm offset. Just clears the template !

Oyagi, I see your front offset is 38mm, it would be helpful to know how many mm clearance you have between spokes and caliper at tightest point?

 

[FXMDBilly]

Oyagi

Good feedback, especially about the uneven deposits. Is this avoided by simply keeping the brakes clean? How often do you do this?

Avoided by a proper pad bed-in procedure, a higher quality pad (that has better materials - less fillers, higher quality lubricants, etc..), as well as better brake pedal application/release characteristics (up you you as the driver).

You can have the uneven pad deposit shudder on stock rotors, or aftermarket systems.

Ryneen has Brembo Lotus calipers up front with stock rears and we are going to the track right now to have some fun. This package has a very good balance and great stopping power even with stock rears. I have yet to track an AP-equipped car.


Billy

 

[robfenn]

I appreciate this kit is undoubtedly a lot cheaper than the official kit but we went to great lengths to create a kit with AP Racing here in the UK. The kit above uses an old caliper, whereas you can utilise the larger 6pot fronts with 4 pots on the rear (which uses a Brembo ebrake). It's a shame someone like SoS don't organise a bulk buy to reduce costs so it can be made more widely available.

Our other NSX has a wider 6 pot to accommodate larger pads. The braking is awesome, it's a shame you guys are making do with old tech!

I'm not sure what pads come with the SoS kit but AP tends to supply Ferodo by default when Pagids tend to be better. Performance Friction discs are slightly better than AP's too.

 

[CB72]

I appreciate this kit is undoubtedly a lot cheaper than the official kit but we went to great lengths to create a kit with AP Racing here in the UK. The kit above uses an old caliper, whereas you can utilise the larger 6pot fronts with 4 pots on the rear (which uses a Brembo ebrake). It's a shame someone like SoS don't organise a bulk buy to reduce costs so it can be made more widely available.

Our other NSX has a wider 6 pot to accommodate larger pads. The braking is awesome, it's a shame you guys are making do with old tech!

I'm not sure what pads come with the SoS kit but AP tends to supply Ferodo by default when Pagids tend to be better. Performance Friction discs are slightly better than AP's too.

I fully agree with Robfen on the subject .
Many systems on the market go with a BBK for the front and then compromise with a cheap accomodation for the rear.
I started myself with a BBK from Movit in Germany that consists of 322*32mm disks and calipers originally used on the Porsche 993 turbo.
Very nice except that the front wheels would lock immediately when the ABS is disabled ( I don't believe it's good idea to rely on the ABS to balance the braking effort front to rear!)
My next move was to upgrade the rear.
This was done with a 4 pot AP caliper that after minor machining was attached direcly to the original NSX caliper support .
The disk itself is a slotted NSX 3.2L OEM replacement.
This set-up provides the exact same balance front to rear as the OEM design.
I can garantee that I no longer fear beeing behind a Porsche while braking!
That is of course with the right pad material. Upfront I use Pagid yellow pads.
Unbelievable feel before lock-up and nearly no squeals around town.
Last but not least keep in mind that you will need to add an e-brake...
Another 1K$!Sorry but I was not able to send any picture?

 

[CB72]

Here are the pictures!

 

[Oyagi]

Oyagi, I see your front offset is 38mm, it would be helpful to know how many mm clearance you have between spokes and caliper at tightest point?

I'd love to help you but my car is currently stored until April and I don't have access :frown: I ca tell you though that with my offsets in the CE28's, I have plenty of clearance, without spacers of any sort.

I woul love to upgrade to the AP kit posted by Rob but unfortunately I have to strike a budget balance if I treasure my marital life to remain such :biggrin: For my purposes, my setup is perfect. Perhaps if I spend more time on the track I might be convinced to a more aggressive setup in the future. I should also say for most weekend track guys, just changing the brake lines to SS, upgrading the pads and rotors is more than adequate with the oem brakes.

 

[nsxnut]

I'm looking to fit track-capable brakes and am currently leaning towards the KVR/AP Racing brake kit from SoS:

Are you going to go to the track? Is track performance a priority?
For the street this kit is Just fine.

For the track you may want to consider Calipers for all 4 corner.

I had a similar setup initially. Great on the street but not ideal for the track.
I have since gone to Larger calipers and rotors on all 4 corners.

Disclaimer. I did not have this kit.

If I had it to do all over again I would go with the Brembo Indy setup.
Brembo Indy setup is not cheep but Great brakes for the track are not cheep.

Tire width and adhesion also effect bias as well as pad compound.

 

[CDX_NSX]

Oyagi, I see your front offset is 38mm, it would be helpful to know how many mm clearance you have between spokes and caliper at tightest point?

FWIW, I am running the AP calipers, and have about 3mm of clearance with my Advan Model 5 which are 18 x 8 with a +40 (with spacer) offset.

 

[sparky]

That 6-pot + 4-pot AP setup sounds good, altho the extra cost is bit of a downer :frown:

Wondering why adding four pot caliper to rear requires an e-brake ? (I know, I'm being lazy, I should go look at the handbrake section of the workshop manual, but since you guys are sooooo helpful :smile

As for target usage, I'm an occassional club race day "sprinter", not a "door-to-door racer" just against the clock mostly one car at a time. Usually only 4 - 8 laps = say 15 mins at a time. The other eventual usage is tarmac rally (e.g. Classic Adelaide, Targa Tasmania). Either way heat soak is not maxed like full on door-to-door racers ... so the goal is triple use car: track / rally / street.

 

[nsxnut]

The E-brake cable attaches to the rear caliper.
If you go with after market calipers you will need a separate caliper for e-brake or go without.

 

[robfenn]

That's right. The ebrake is from the Ferrari 360. AP were owned by Brembo until recently so they could utilise each others parts bin.

 

[sparky]

Thanks nsxnut.

In my experience the rear brakes get a lot less punishment, even when maxxing on track. So the KVR/AP solution retaining OEM rear calipers seems practical to me (and economical !).

PS: That sounds like a fairly conventional handbrake arrangement, why does everyone call it an e-brake?

 

[docjohn]

e= emergency what we call it . I also like the idea of the bigger rear rotor option from SoS which retains the oem rear calipers when going bbk up front.

 

[sparky]

ahah! (I was thinking "electronic" )

 

[kj5000]

I inquired with SoS, KVR, and AP Racing about replacement parts for this kit and none of them have, or know where to get any replacement parts. Any of you guys who have this kit purchased a new rotor or any other part for it?

 

[nsxnut]

Thanks nsxnut.

In my experience the rear brakes get a lot less punishment, even when maxxing on track. So the KVR/AP solution retaining OEM rear calipers seems practical to me (and economical !).

PS: That sounds like a fairly conventional handbrake arrangement, why does everyone call it an e-brake?

I went this route, it is not ideal for the track. It is better than stock.
Emergency brake aka e-brake

 

[TURBO2GO]

I know a lot of guys go without an e-brake, but isn't it a good thing to have for an "emergency" if the brake system does fail? my car sees track and street duty. I can always leave the car in gear but am wondering if I am making a safety mistake getting rid of the e-brake. I suppose you can engine brake to a great extent, but still... is this a smart thing to do?

 

[Oyagi]

I inquired with SoS, KVR, and AP Racing about replacement parts for this kit and none of them have, or know where to get any replacement parts. Any of you guys who have this kit purchased a new rotor or any other part for it?

Huh? KVR stocks all parts needed for this kit except for the caliper mounting bracket, which it will CNC for you on the spot.

 

[FXMDBilly]

Ryneen has Brembo Lotus calipers up front with stock rears and we are going to the track right now to have some fun. This package has a very good balance and great stopping power even with stock rears. I have yet to track an AP-equipped car.


Billy

As always, this system worked very well at the track yesterday. In his NSX I was braking at the same point I was in a 997 GT3 Porsche -that I had the opportunity of hot-lapping.


0.02

 

[sparky]

Huh? KVR stocks all parts needed for this kit except for the caliper mounting bracket, which it will CNC for you on the spot.

I assume Oyagi is right ... but can others confirm there's no problem getting replacement parts for KVR/AP braking systems, either from SoS or KVR direct ?

 

[ScienceofSpeed]

I inquired with SoS, KVR, and AP Racing about replacement parts for this kit and none of them have, or know where to get any replacement parts. Any of you guys who have this kit purchased a new rotor or any other part for it?

Replacement components are readily available, however, we were not able to provide components for your kit purchased off eBay, as they do not appear to be the same as the setup we sell.

regards,
-- Chris