NSX vs 2017 Nismo GTR Video

[Radeon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01XQzYz1c6I

They seem to be pretty close in performance but even with the handicap, the GTR Nismo edged out the NSX in the end.

 

[ReneNSX]

More details


http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/l2liutm1rtrc

Nordschleife time ?

 

[N Spec]

I would like to see what the Type R comparable would do with the Nismo.

 

[2slow2speed]

Thanks for posting, great insight from the comments made by Tsuchiya-san and Nakaya-san.

Since most folks here on Prime are not fluent in Japanese, here is a quick version of the transcript of the comments made by the Announcer, Tsuchiya and Nakaya.

Probably many typos here and there, it was a quick job translating/paraphrasing what was been said, tagging the bold parts to make it easier to read was a pain



Timed Laps

Announcer: The NSX had the Pirelli Trofe R’s which are optional in the US market. :Let’s hear Dori-king’s initial comments.

Tsuchiya: There is understeer….

Tsuchiya: What’s up with that strange movement/handling.

Announcer: At the Dunlop corner, Dori-king is struggling with the unpredictable handling of the NSX, it seems that it is been caused by interference of the stability control system. But what can Dori-king do?

Tsuchiya: Driving the car in such a way that the stability control system doesn’t interfere might lead to faster driving/lower lap times.

Tsuchiya: The front end is pushing/running away (referring to understeer)

Tsuchiya: Need to drive so that the stability control doesn’t intervene.

Tsuchiya: Can’t let it slide here..

Tsuchiya: I am not sliding it here either.. Have to apply the accelerator in such a way that the stability control doesn’t interfere.

Tsuchiya: Same thing here..

Announcer: Dori-king entering the last corner concentrating on driving the NSX in such a way that the stability control doesn’t interfere the lap time is: 1’02”47

Announcer: What is the secret to driving the NSX fast?

Tsuchiya: Even in track mode the stability control interferes quite a bit, so need to drive the car in such a way that it is just at the limit before the stability control system interferes. Driving in such a way leads to the lap time that we just achieved.

Tsuchiya: But if I drive the car with my own style, then the stability control interferes consistently and it leads to bad/slow lap times. Therefore I need to drive the car so that the stability control doesn’t activate, again, again and again and it results in such a lap time as we had now.



Announcer: Following in the GT-R Nismo is Nakaya, who just wen on track.

Announcer: Following the debut of the GT-R 9 years ago and progressive updates the current iteration seems to be quite good to drive….

Nakaya: The car has a strong tendency to understeer

Nakaya: And if the car is not in auto-mode (shifting wise)

Nakaya: When slowing down it seems to be missing an additional down shift.

Nakaya: The understeer is pretty bad here.

Announcer: Even struggling with understeer, Nakaya is able to grasp the nuances of the GT-R and is able to achieve a best lap time of 1’01”53.

Nakaya: The car is experiencing power oversteer.

Nakaya: Just like in a racing oriented chassis, the stiffness of the chassis has been improved quite a bit, it’s like the floor is very quiet, and tight chassis.

Nakaya: The understeer is pretty bad here.

Nakaya: Adding more negative front camber as well as using newer tires since the car had been driven quite a lot already on that particular day.

Nakaya: The initial turn is probably weak due to the worn out tires.

Nakaya: Driving in manual mode the car is easy to drive, but it won’t achieve the best lap times. The programming of the automatic mode seems to achieve the best lap times.

Nakaya: Getting rid of understeer can probably lead to an improvement of about a second in the lap time.




Announcer: Time for the match, 3 Lap battle with a reverse grid lineup.

Nakaya: We are about to start the battle, but I want to see the speed as well as the handling of the NSX

Tsuchiya: The adversary/competition is the GT-R Nismo, the car that has been continuously been built since 2007 and I would like to beat it somehow/someway. On my way.

Announcer: The green light is on, Start!

Announcer: The NSX takes the lead thanks to the wide torque band of the engine (probably referring to the powertrain ICE/e-motors) as well as the mid engine layout it has a better start.

Announcer: Let’s see the playback from the in-car video of Nakaya’s GT-R. Due to the rules of the battle, no launch control was used, and even with the 3.8L Turbo the low end torque is thin (weak) on the GT-R

Announcer: Nakaya-san please say something…

Nakaya: Without launch control the NSX with the motor is faster on the start.

Announcer: seems that Dori-king is in full concentration mode driving the NSX, Tsuchiya might not have the confidence to even comment

Nakaya: Seems that Tsuchiya is struggling quite a bit with the NSX,

Announcer: With the car that provides a sense of stability Nakaya is chasing the NSX been driven by Tsuchiya who is using all his driving skills trying to run away.

Announcer: Is the GT-R Nismo one step above the NSX?

Tsuchiya: In a straight line, there doesn’t seem to be that much of a difference???

Nakaya: It looks like the straight line speed are equal..

Announcer: The straight line speed seems to be the same, wait.. does the GT-R have an advantage during braking?



Announcer: The battle is entering the 2nd lap.

Nakaya: it seems that the NSX seems to pull a little bit at the end

Tsuchiya: The braking seems weak..

Nakaya: it seems that Tsuchiya is struggling quite a bit. Woah, they are both quite expensive cars (when the NSX cuts across in front of the GT-R)

Announcer: Please don’t hit each other, even those of us watching are having cold sweats…

Announcer: Is the GT-R Nismo finally in pursuit mode? Hey NSX you are in trouble..

Tsuchiya: The GT-R is fast on the straights.

Announcer: And finally in the last corner, the GT-R takes the inside by doing a late braking move.



Announcer: And the GT-R is leading heading into the last lap.

Announcer: The NSX attempts to the take the inside going into turn one, but wasn’t able to reach the GT-R.

Announcer: NSX don’t forgive (let up) on the GT-R’s lethal speed

Tsuchiya: It’s fast (referring to the GT-R)

Tsuchiya: The braking seems to be weak… (when he tries to catch the GT-R under braking)

Nakaya: Once in the lead the NSX probably won’t be able to follow

Announcer: At the Dunlop corner Dori-king tames the wild rear end of the NSX.

Announcer: Nakaya’s GT-R takes advantage of that situation and keeps running away from the NSX.

Announcer: The NSX can’t make up the gap with braking..

Announcer: Nakaya-san isn’t the GT-R Nismo fast on the straights...

Tsuchiya: There is a difference under braking and the difference on the straights seems to be quite substantial.

Nakaya: The understeer is pretty heavy on the GT-R (heading into the last turn)




Tsuchiya: The GT-R is so much faster in the straights… I surrender/give up. The GT-R seems to be really stable. The GT-R has speed that is a result of it’s stability.

Tsuchiya: Well the NSX, if it was using the Continental tires it would be understeer from beginning to end, so it was a gamble using the Pirelli P-Zero’s to make up the gap, the entry speed seems to be better on the Pirelli's but at the limit it seems to give up all of the sudden (what he refers as peaky handling), but at the same time that is fun (given that it’s Tsuchiya/Dori-king)),

Announcer: Nakaya-san how was the GT-R Nismo?

Nakaya: For a car that is actually been retailed, a car that I can get so serious about is great/wonderful (sugoi). Even if it is not reachable by many (referring to the price) Then again it you buy a car and keep tuning it and improving it.



Announcer: Let’s get some final comments:

Announcer: It was exciting to spectate this serious battle between these two domestic supercars.

Tsuchiya: It’s fast (referring to the GT-R)

Nakaya: The NSX just seems to jump at the start thanks to the electronic motors. I thought about using the launch control on the GT-R but was told not to do so.

Tsuchiya: yes

Nakaya: So since I wasn’t able to use launch control the car bogged down at the beginning.

Tsuchiya: yes

Tsuchiya: Thanks to the motor the start was better on the NSX

Nakaya: the acceleration out of corners seems to be pretty good on the NSX as well.

Tsuchiya: yeah

Tsuchiya: But the GT-R is so much faster

Nakaya: During cornering the NSX did not seem to be stable, it looked like lots of adjustments needed to be made.

Tsuchiya: yes

Nakaya: Were you running with all the torque vectoring off?

Tsuchiya: I tried to turn off all of the torque vectoring, but was told that it can’t be disabled completely.

Nakaya: it seemed that it was active here and there

Tsuchiya: it comes and interferes quite a bit

Nakaya: Either you gave me the inside or the NSX was not that easy to handle during braking.

Tsuchiya: Compared to the GT-R the NSX is not easy to drive (referring to the car not been as stable)

Nakaya: The GT-R suffers from quite a bit of understeer quite prevalent in the last corner leading to the main straight.

Tsuchiya: Yes

Nakaya: But thanks to the stiffer chassis, and the stiffer floor of the car it is easier to drive than previous versions.

Tsuchiya: Following from behind the GT-R seemed to be quite stable.

Tsuchiya: In contrast the NSX was quirky/picky with constant interference.

Nakaya: Guess it all starts from here (referring to the NSX)

Tsuchiya: It was just born, compared to the GT-R which was born in 2007 and has been continuously improved.

Nakaya: So the question is when will the NSX be on par or when would it will exceed the GT-R.

Tsuchiya: Yes

Nakaya: I would like to watch over as that happens

Tsuchiya: Well, But the brakes are really weak on the NSX. Can’t dive deep into corners due to the fact that the car won’t slow down if it goes that deep.

Nakaya: The GT-R has steel rotors.

Tsuchiya: The NSX has carbon ceramics. They are expensive!

Nakaya: Are they about 350degrees front/rear? (assuming they are referring to Celsius)

Tsuchiya: Yes

Nakaya: The GT-R has 450 degrees front and about 200 degrees rear (Celsius), the brake balance is not that great but the car is able to dive into corners better than the NSX.

Tsuchiya: Can’t dive in with the NSX, Hope/Wish that the NSX can improve from here on.

Nakaya: Yes

 

[Radeon]

Thanks for the translation!

Without launch control, the NSX was much faster at the start. I actually thought the NSX was given a head start but that wasn't the case.

 

[chrisn]

Thanks for translation.

Although I appreciate the simplicity of the NSX driving modes: one big dial and only four "macro" modes to choose from. On the other hand, it seems that the car would really benefit from more granular settings on the track to fit the skill and style of the driver. Perhaps something akin to the Corvette system where there are five "macro" modes, but then under the "Track Mode" there are 4 or 5 sub modes that progressively relax/disable the computer assist. Most people are fastest in a mode somewhere between "full safety" and "all off." I wonder why Acura didn't do something similar for us.

On the broader point, I am pleased that the "base" NSX (despite this driver's style clashing with the safety systems) being very close to the hardest-edged GT-R variant. At my skill level, this cars would be essentially equally matched in any context. And, even though I have owned and loved a GT-R, it really is shockingly ugly compared to the NSX.

For essentially equal money, you'd have to be a REAL Godzilla fan to go for the aging GT-R versus the NSX, IMHO. That said, I have a funny feeling I might have an R36 in my garage at some point in the future (seems it like might be a distant point in the future, which is a bummer).

 

[stuntman]

He had to have stability control off. I'd imagine he's referring to torque vectoring interfering and not being predictable. Not stability control.

 

[N Spec]

Thanks for the translation. Good insight. I hope Honda takes the reviews in consideration in refining the NSX over time. It seem like potentially, the NSX is indeed faster than the GTR, but they have small details to iron out.

The launch mode rpm is very conservative on the NSX so I imagine, if it was a bit higher, it would achieve a much more impressive 0-60. Just goes to show, that real world non-launch mode numbers are as what many reviewers have described this car to be "very quick."

 

[chrisn]

He had to have stability control off. I'd imagine he's referring to torque vectoring interfering and not being predictable. Not stability control.

I think you're right, but the logic is the same: for guys that are able to drive at or beyond the design limits, have a way to dial-back (and/or provide different calibration settings) for all systems (including active torque vectoring) that might slow them down. Again, I am trying to draw analogies to other cars where even the fastest drivers (in a track day setting, perhaps not a pro driver in an actual race-- not really a valid use case for a stock street car) rarely go "all systems full off" because the systems don't slow them down and, in some cases, speed them up.

Another example, and sorry to keep going back to Corvette but it is top of mind, is the PTM (performance traction management) system that helps you get down maximum torque coming into and out of the apex without excessive rear wheel spin. First introduced in the C6 ZR1 (I think), there are videos showing pro drivers failing to beat the system in terms of corner exit speeds. This is an example of a system with many many driver settings that can be dialed in to make you faster-- even though it is "intervening" 1000 times a second.

My sense is the NSX software just needs more development / calibration / settings and it will be able to deliver better laptimes on the exact same hardware and power output.

 

[2slow2speed]

FWIW: Here are the comments that Tsuchiya made on his best lap on the NSX in Japanese:

電制を入らないように乗ればいいんだよな
ここ滑らせちゃだめだよ
ここも滑らせてないで
電制が効かないレベルアクセルを入れていく事がね

Feel free to translate....

There are reviews online that state that even in Track Mode the stability control on the NSX2.0 is lurking in the background.

 

[stuntman]

I think you're right, but the logic is the same: for guys that are able to drive at or beyond the design limits, have a way to dial-back (and/or provide different calibration settings) for all systems (including active torque vectoring) that might slow them down. Again, I am trying to draw analogies to other cars where even the fastest drivers (in a track day setting, perhaps not a pro driver in an actual race-- not really a valid use case for a stock street car) rarely go "all systems full off" because the systems don't slow them down and, in some cases, speed them up.

Another example, and sorry to keep going back to Corvette but it is top of mind, is the PTM (performance traction management) system that helps you get down maximum torque coming into and out of the apex without excessive rear wheel spin. First introduced in the C6 ZR1 (I think), there are videos showing pro drivers failing to beat the system in terms of corner exit speeds. This is an example of a system with many many driver settings that can be dialed in to make you faster-- even though it is "intervening" 1000 times a second.

My sense is the NSX software just needs more development / calibration / settings and it will be able to deliver better laptimes on the exact same hardware and power output.

C7 Z06s have proven over and over to be faster with all systems off. Sounds like bad tuning of the NSXs AWD system and torque vectoring. Doing things that aren't intuitive. CH loves the car but I haven't seen him drive it in the Dry. Either way I'm looking forward to driving this polarizing car.

 

[Jinks]

I got to drive it today!!!!!BIG thanks [MENTION=32457]chrisn[/MENTION]. That was very generous. The car was very easy to jump in and just go balls out crazy in it. It is extremely fast. I thought the interior was actually very nice. The whole car hugged you between the seats and the door panels. It felt like it had no turbos what so ever, I couldn't really hear them either. Chris and I both agreed that if the car had more electric motor power down low, it would be a rocket ship. The battery level is almost always at full so it kinda seems like there is horsepower waiting for someone to hack into it. Overall it is a very great car. The brakes suck the eyeballs out of your head but I would still prefer the iron rotors. Also, at high speed the car is extremely rock solid. It doesn't even feel like your going fast until I looked down and was going 137 mph on a quick lane change.The only thing I didn't care for was the quiet mode. It was just a bit lame to me. Exhaust note sounded like a beefier MDX type of tune, which is good in my opinion because loud exhausts can get tiring VERY quickly. I also thought 4th and fifth gearing was a bit too tall. The throttle blips on downshifts sound marvelous.

I still love the gen 1 with boost, my heart races when driving it at the speeds close to 120 mph or more. It is much scarier. The gen 2 just pulls harder and harder when flooring it. I certainly hope the car starts to get a bit lower in price. I would certainly like to have both. Both are great cars....
I am very glad I was able to experience the power of the gen 2. Thank you again Chris.

 

[docjohn]

good on Chris for allowing a fellow primer to drive a new one.One less bench racer in the crowd:wink:

 

[Jinks]

Yes, it was a very nice gesture. The car means business. I am still not feeling the price for it though and there are some things I hope Honda improves. But I could see this car in my garage someday. Either this or a gen 1 V10 R8. Time will tell.

 

[Jinks]

The worst part about the test drive is when I jumped in the car and my go pro camera battery was dead.....

 

[2slow2speed]

To give a bit of a context regarding how the various cars have performed at Tsukuba.

Here is a Best Motoring Video taken back in 2008 IIRC when the R35 just came out, the best lap time at Tsukuba for the R35 GT-R was a 1'02"055.

The car was stock and had been inspected by MCR to make sure that everything was in spec (tire pressures, etc, etc).

At the start of the test of the R35 GT-R ambient temp was: 1 C, track temp -0.8 C

BM used to show the driver's footwork to allow the viewer to ascertain what the driver's feet were doing at any given point in the track.

Tsuchiya's comments regarding the GT-R, the car is fast but that it felt heavy. The tendency to oversteer with the Dunlop's was caused by the shoulder of the tires giving up transferring weight which made the rear prone to stick out/oversteer. If that behavior can be adapted to then the car can be controlled/tamed.

So to put things in context. Although the 2017 Nismo GT-R was driven on a different day and in different track conditions and with a different driver compared to the original BM video of the 2008 GT-R Premium Edition, the best lap time difference wasn't that substantial at Tsukuba.

2008 R35 GT-R Premium Edition 1'02"055 (Tsuchiya racer)
2017 R35 GT-R Nismo 1'01"53 (Nakaya journalist/reporter/racer)

IMHO: At a minimum the 2ng gen NSX should have been able to beat the original lap time that was set by the R35 GT-R back in 2008.

As stuntman mentioned the complex interaction of the various systems on the NSX2.0 when driven at the edge probably made the task difficult.

For street driving it doesn't matter. The NSX seems to be a great car, so for those focused in street driving with all systems on, lap times at the Nurburgring , Tsukuba, Laguna Seca, etc don't matter. Just enjoy your cars

 

[fastaussie]

surprising to see the front of the NSX all over the place, and clearly holding up the GTR in the hands of those drivers. however, it has been said before more than once.

IMHO: At a minimum the 2ng gen NSX should have been able to beat the original lap time that was set by the R35 GT-R back in 2008.

As stuntman mentioned the complex interaction of the various systems on the NSX2.0 when driven at the edge probably made the task difficult.

For street driving it doesn't matter. The NSX seems to be a great car, so for those focused in street driving with all systems on, lap times at the Nurburgring , Tsukuba, Laguna Seca, etc don't matter. Just enjoy your cars

couldn't agree more. for street driving, any of the current crop of Supercars from the last one or two decades are all heaps too fast for the road. which is why they are tested on the race track. it's the only place to fully exploit a 600 horsepower automobile. so the race track numbers, lap times, and comparisons are inevitable.

every Supercar is a hugely capable offering, it's only when compared to each other at the limit does one rise or fall in the standings. but on the street, the driver, not the machine, is the limit. so enjoy what you've got. just don't get into a bench race, or an actual race with the GTR (or something European)... :wink:

 

[Adamantium]

To give a bit of a context regarding how the various cars have performed at Tsukuba.

Here is a Best Motoring Video taken back in 2008 IIRC when the R35 just came out, the best lap time at Tsukuba for the R35 GT-R was a 1'02"055.

The car was stock and had been inspected by MCR to make sure that everything was in spec (tire pressures, etc, etc).

At the start of the test of the R35 GT-R ambient temp was: 1 C, track temp -0.8 C

BM used to show the driver's footwork to allow the viewer to ascertain what the driver's feet were doing at any given point in the track.

Tsuchiya's comments regarding the GT-R, the car is fast but that it felt heavy. The tendency to oversteer with the Dunlop's was caused by the shoulder of the tires giving up transferring weight which made the rear prone to stick out/oversteer. If that behavior can be adapted to then the car can be controlled/tamed.

So to put things in context. Although the 2017 Nismo GT-R was driven on a different day and in different track conditions and with a different driver compared to the original BM video of the 2008 GT-R Premium Edition, the best lap time difference wasn't that substantial at Tsukuba.

2008 R35 GT-R Premium Edition 1'02"055 (Tsuchiya racer)
2017 R35 GT-R Nismo 1'01"53 (Nakaya journalist/reporter/racer)

IMHO: At a minimum the 2ng gen NSX should have been able to beat the original lap time that was set by the R35 GT-R back in 2008.

Those numbers are more interesting when you consider that the Nismo has 600ps but the 2008 car had 485.

It's a little at odds with the drivers' comments that the NSX is a baby and is being compared to an evolved and mature GT-R, and yet the baby GT-R was still almost 0.5 seconds faster with 100bhp less and about 100lbs more!

 

[G.Irish]

Thanks for translation.

Although I appreciate the simplicity of the NSX driving modes: one big dial and only four "macro" modes to choose from. On the other hand, it seems that the car would really benefit from more granular settings on the track to fit the skill and style of the driver. Perhaps something akin to the Corvette system where there are five "macro" modes, but then under the "Track Mode" there are 4 or 5 sub modes that progressively relax/disable the computer assist. Most people are fastest in a mode somewhere between "full safety" and "all off." I wonder why Acura didn't do something similar for us.

I asked exactly that question to some of the engineers at the press launch and the answer was that they extensively tested each of the drive modes to ensure that the handling was not dangerous under any scenario. They take the safety of the car very seriously, and if they allowed the driver to change all of the parameters freely they could not ensure that someone couldn't make the car unpredictable or unsafe for the driver.

They also pointed to the fact that there was only so much time they could devote to developing the car if they wanted to make their internal deadlines. They could've spent more time testing configurable vehicle system parameters so they could give the driver more tuning options, but that would've meant they would've had less time to spend on other facets of the car. They didn't rule out opening more configuration options in the future, but they had to prioritize and they concluded their time was better spent refining the modes they did offer.