NSX-R vs 911 GT3

[NetViper]

I just got my new Car and Driver and it has a review of the GT3. This is i guess porsches equivalent of a Type R version. So, I thought it would be interesting to see what everyone thinks.

Here is my thoughts. The GT3 completely destroys the NSX-R. It isn't even a comparison. Porsche has done their research on this one and created one AMAZING car. While Honda just sits on their buts using an engine that is now 5 years old and still doesnt make over 300HP, Porsche has created an incredible 3.6L engine making 375HP and 284 tq.

The performance stats speak for themselves.
0-60 in 4.0
0-100 in 8.8
1/4 mile in 12.3 @ 118.

And they mentioned they think the car will be faster when they test it in the USA because of the surface used in testing.

IMO, those are the numbers the NSX should be putting out.

Then there is the issue of price... the porsche is 100K.. the NSX-R would be about the same if it was sold here..

Everyone here knows I love the NSX, but when I see numbers like this.. it just makes me sad that Honda doesn't care enough about their flagship car to make it competitive anymore.

In a time where $30K Mitsubishi EVO's and Subaru STI's are faster than a $90K exotic car, something needs to be done.

 

[bayareansx1999]

i am waiting to see if Honda/Acura does something about this in teh coming months.. to see if they really have something in stored for 2004.... if they dont up the HP on the NSX or do some major changes. I for one will be very dissapointed...

 

[Teej]

It really didnt take a head to head review to have already known the outcome. Its quite simple really, everyone knows the NSX-R has the same engine, just a slightly tuned ride and ooh and ahhs here and there.

A car that has almost 100 more HP and proven amounts of torque, not to mention already comes with oohs and ahhs on the handling and performance end will always out do its competitor.

 

[Jimbo]

I agree.

Unless Honda does something quickly they'll only sell a few hundred cars per year.



-Jim

 

[RyRy210]

I think the idea of a car being competitive or not is subject to many interpretations. Alot might argue that the NSX-R is pretty competitive considering it was EVO car of the year. A positive comparison was even made to the Pagani Zonda. Also, let us not forget the infamous Best Motoring episode that got Allan fired up when the NSX-R did fairly well against the Murcielago up until the last lap.

I do have to disagree with the EVO and Sti comparison though. I just picked up a japanese magazine of a recent comparo of all JDM sports cars and the NSX still reigns supreme.

I still believe that Honda is a company that doesn't have a global mindset that the other manufacturers have. As long as a particular model is competitive in japan, it will remain in production. Cars like the Acura RL don't even hold a candle to the Lexus LS430 or Infiniti Q45, but its been like that for awhile (see a trend? It's not just the NSX!). Until another japanese automaker dethrones the NSX as the #1 Japanese Sports car, I don't see them making any drastic changes. I think Honda is comfortable with that. Maybe the new CEO will change all this. I guess we just have to wait and see.

 

[sabashioyaki]

Cars like the Acura RL don't even hold a candle to the Lexus LS430 or Infiniti Q45, but its been like that for awhile (see a trend? It's not just the NSX!).

The RL, while being Acura's best sedan, doesn't compete with the LS430 or Q45 which cost over 10,000 more. The RL even outsells the Q45, so I don't see your point. The NSX is the best Japan has to offer, but its' sales in Japan are even more pathetic than they are here.

I think Acura made an error when they never introduced a halo car for the NSX. The NSX is about equal to the 996, but when people think Porsche 996 they think 400hp twin turbo. A halo car like a 996TT, GT2, or GT3 might do wonders for the NSX reputation which could turn into sales. The Zanardi was a lackluster attempt.

 

[NetViper]

I do have to disagree with the EVO and Sti comparison though. I just picked up a japanese magazine of a recent comparo of all JDM sports cars and the NSX still reigns supreme.

It may reign supreme -- just BARELY, but at what cost. The EVO costs 30K, the NSX 90K. (If if you get the NSX for $74, that is still more than double the EVO). When someone with a car that costs $60K LESS can keep up with you in the 1/4 and lap a track just as fast, it sounds like the $90K car needs a serious boost in performance to justify the difference in price.

I just wish acura would step up to the plate and give the car a LARGE boost in performance. We all know they have the talent and resources to make it happen.

As far as the NSX-R being competitive in Best Motoring, I would say on a tight track, without a lot of long straights, the NSX-R would do well. When the track has some long straights, the car gets wiped out. The recent Maxim showed these results when the NSX lapped the track 4 seconds slower than the 911 GT2, viper, merci and 550.

At the end of the Best Motoring video, when the lambo overtook the NSX, it was WAY too easy. The NSX didn't have a chance. A 375 HP 3.6 L V6 would have solved that.

 

[Tom Larkins]

Regardless of what side of the issue your on is it a fair ? to ask. Is time running out on the NSX or is time passed it by already.

 

[NetViper]

Good question. Personally, without updating the power, I don't see the point in continuing the car any more. Losing 200 cars sales a year doesn't seem like it would have a very big impact on Honda.

If the purpose of the NSX is to be your FLAGSHIP car and the majority of the public see it as underpowered and not competitive, does it make Honda look worse, rather than better?

It really made me mad when I opened up the latest Motor Trend to see a comparison of today's TOP sports cars.. 0-60. 0-100. 1/4, standing mile..etc... all that great stuff...and not only was the NSX not included.. it wasn't even MENTIONED as a car that was invited but couldn't come. It seems not even the magazines bother to think about the NSX anymore.

IMHO, if the 2002 NSX had 350HP, it would have been in every magazine, every comparison and back in the spotlight once again.
Instead, the car came out.. they said.. well it looks a little different, but its not any faster.. and they forgot about it from that second on.

 

[RyRy210]

The RL, while being Acura's best sedan, doesn't compete with the LS430 or Q45 which cost over 10,000 more. The RL even outsells the Q45, so I don't see your point.

My point is that people complain that the RL only has a V6 but whereas the other competitors have moved on to a V8, yet I see no signs of Acura silencing their critics with a V8.

 

[vegasnsx]

I couldnt agree with you more Netviper.

 

[RyRy210]

It may reign supreme -- just BARELY, but at what cost. The EVO costs 30K, the NSX 90K. (If if you get the NSX for $74, that is still more than double the EVO). When someone with a car that costs $60K LESS can keep up with you in the 1/4 and lap a track just as fast, it sounds like the $90K car needs a serious boost in performance to justify the difference in price.

I think it all boils down to what is important to you. I remember a member saying that not all horsepower is created equal, and I can't agree with it more. Nowadays a Dodge Neon SRT-4 can put alot of cars 2 or 3 times its cost to shame. The question is, why did you buy an NSX? For its performance? For its prestige? For its handling? For its styling?

I admire the NSX for its impact on the automotive industry. I bought it because to me its an important peice of automotive industry. I also liked the styling very much, and the idea of owning a reliable exotic was really appealing. Performance wasn't even a factor for me.

I persoanlly do not like Porsches. Why? I don't like the styling. I actually was thinking about ordering the Carrera GT, but decided not to. (And for those that are interested, there are at least 2 still available for order when I called a few weeks ago. They require a $100K deposit though).

All in all, it is sad that the NSX hasn't gone through much change. It really doesn't bother me all that much though, but I know I'm definitely a minority in that aspect.

 

[8000RPM]

I think Acura made an error when they never introduced a halo car for the NSX. ...

I suppose Honda would argue that they did just that: the NSX-R.

The problem is that the NSX-R, albeit lighter, still uses the same basic engine as a regular NSX.

Honda should take a serious look at what other manufacturers are doing with their "racing" versions.

Let's take a look:

BMW has its M-series cars that all benefit from high-powered engines and are significantly superior to their "regular" models

Mercedes has the AMG series that also get high-powered engines that differentiate them from the regular Mercedes models.

Porsche has various high-powered engine options for the 996 series that are a lot more powerful than the 996 Carrera.

Let's say Honda gave the NSX-R a supercharged V6 making 400hp, we would stop hearing the "underpowered" criticism that we NSX owners are so used to hearing...

Just some food for thought.

 

[NetViper]

8000RPM,

I like the direction you are going there, however there is a one big difference between M and AMG vs the NSX. The cars that become M and AMG models were not really performance cars to begin with. The NSX is supposed to be one of the best sports cars in the world... it should outperform all the M's and AMG's out there without needing an R next to its name.

 

[CRX B16B VTEC]

Hm... is AMG to Mercedes really the same thing as Type R to Honda? I think the Type R is something more milder than that. Well, NSX Type R atleast, is not so "Type R" compared to Type R Civics/Integras . A standard Integra/Civic compared to its Type R counter part has more significant engine mods.

I guess Honda don't sell something more powerful cos they are restricted in Japan to sell something with max power of 280 ps.

I have seen some Japanese Honda dealers that sells S2000 with Mugen bits already on them. Although Mugen don't sell complete cars, atleast you can buy from some of these dealers. I think Mugen is something more like the AMG or M-tech?! There are other tuning companies in fact. (Jun, Spoon etc)

Recently I have taken order of CRX SIR, and the customer wanted me to get it tuned before exporting from Japan, so I took it to Jun. The engine work is done at the mo. My trader friend here in the UK also had a customer with a Skyline GTR, and what he was doing was to ship back the car to Japan to get it tuned. Even for little cars like a CRX, full tune menu was very expensive.

Asuka

 

[8000RPM]

The NSX is supposed to be one of the best sports cars in the world... it should outperform all the M's and AMG's out there without needing an R next to its name.

Good point.

And the NSX-R should outperform the standard NSX by a significant margin the way a 996 Turbo / GT2 (or even the GT3) outperforms the 996 Carrera.

And in an ideal world the standard NSX should in turn outperform the Ms and AMGs of the world...

However, considering AMG cars are nowadays pushing 500hp and 500+ ftlbs of torque and are capable of running 12sec 1/4 mile times, it is a tall order for today's sportscars in general to outperform these super sedans...

It is a problem facing all sportscars, not just Honda and the NSX.

 

[len3.8]

Okay, Being a Porsche nut the GT3 is nice on paper and on the track. Realisticly only a few people will get it for the 100k, before the speculators drive up the price. This is interesting, because I remember when Porsche owners were going through the same thing. If Honda/Acura is like Porsche, do you really think they are worried about a majority of NSX owners that purchased their cars used? Do they really worry about NSX owners that buy their parts from anyone other than honda? I understand the performance parts such as FI, wheels, body kits. If honda put a 400hp 4ltr 6 or 8 in their car, how many of you are going to go to the dealer and anti-up the 90k large? Those are the people they are worried about. 200 of them or so buy their cars, 400hp or not.
The styling is timeless as far as I'm concerned, there are few cars that look better. The usable power is there, there are a few cars that are faster. Would you really buy the Mitsu evo overa NSX? Heck no, I know I wouldn't. Jimbo stated it clear as day. I don't own a newer P-car because the styling is terrible after 98 (IMHO) Unfortunately they didn't get a lot of power until 00/01. If honda wants to blow everyone away they would have to build a RSX with 300hp. They would absolutely kill everyone in that segment.

If they would offer a Highly engineered FI setup for the NSX they would sell more new ones without having to change much. Offer the new one with a 450hp package and still have the same weight and balance, Im there with 90k in hand. I would buy it all day over the Porsce 996TT at that price and others would too. Just not a lot. That is the problem, It does not have the cult following or the Name recognition as Porsche or Ferrari. Heck they sell a lot of cars to people who can afford them just because they think it's a status symbol. I bought my NSX 13 years after driving one. I bought it because of the way it looked, handled, reliability. I'm keeping it for awhile, because it's simply a better car than most that are out there. Hint, the guys spending big bucks on big names know this as well. They just want the name.

I can ask maybe 95% of you guys/gals why you bought your car and you could tell me. Along with that you could tell me the engine size, difference between years and the last time it hiccupped. Ask the New Guy/gal driving the new Porsche, the % that don't know anything about the car will blow your mind. They know how much it cost. They know it's a Porsch (e) left off.

When I first met Mettini, at the track and 2 other freinds with NSX's they were kicking butts on the track (road coarse) and able to tell me how they were able to run circles around my P-car.

The NSX is as nice as any. Power or not. If used properly, you are usually ahead of the game or running with them. I'll take that , reliability, and exotic looks all day long.

Again how many would drop the 90k for a 400hp NSX? I'm not talking about joining the fan club. I mean take your car down trade it in, write the check, finance whatever?
Just curious.
Len
Excuse the grammar. And the long tirade.

02 - Honda VTX1800C
95 - NSX T
03 - Element ?????/03 Mini cooper??? Wifes ride
91 Jeep cheerokee (parts hauler)

 

[8000RPM]

Is time running out on the NSX or is time passed it by already.

Considering that the NSX has only had evolutionary as opposed to revolutionary changes since its intro more than a decade ago, my sense is that the NSX is slowly becoming the supercar that once was. In other words, a has-been.

Sure it has unprecedented engineering and is a classic beauty that stands the test of time, but there are younger, newer, and more powerful alternatives out there. Considering that our society is dominated by the "what have you done for me lately" mantra, the NSX is slowly fading into the background.

As an NSX lover that sees the car's true inherent beauty in every sense of the word, the above does not bother me. I love the NSX for what it is and for what it isn't.

Unfortunately, the rest of today's Reality TV-dominated society will most likely see the NSX as the supercar that once was...

 

[PHOEN$X]

Len makes some good points. I doubt Honda will do anything unless they know the demand is there. They're probably aware that a lot of Porsche/Ferrari buyers only care about the brand name, so an updated NSX likely wouldn't draw a lot of buyers from those camps.

Now, if we were to get a lot of interested buyers to sign up for a new/improved NSX and ante up sizeable deposits, that might get Honda's attention. Bitching about it won't, unfortunately.

 

[8000RPM]

I doubt Honda will do anything unless they know the demand is there. They're probably aware that a lot of Porsche/Ferrari buyers only care about the brand name, so an updated NSX likely wouldn't draw a lot of buyers from those camps.

If this is indeed the case then perhaps Honda should consider leaving the high-end sportscar market altogether as it is a losing proposition before the game even starts.

It's a chicken or the egg problem. How do you generate additional demand without modernizing the NSX and basically keeping the car as is?

Can incremental demand be generated without the buzz and excitement associated with revolutionary updates?

How can Honda afford to invest in modernization efforts without first making the business case and verifying demand for a new model?

These are questions that Honda management needs to take a hard look at.

 

[PHOEN$X]

Honda took a big risk when they decided to produce the NSX. Judging by their recent products, it seems like the company is very conservative now. Will the new CEO change things? Who knows. I hope some passionate NSX enthusiasts inside the company will exercise their power and keep development of the car alive. Guess we can only wait and see..

 

[RyRy210]

Honda is 1st and foremost a profit-making entity. If they feel that NSX sales satisfies their bottom-line, I don't think they care what anyone else thinks, even us.

Ferrari, Porsche, Lotus, Lambo is synonymous to high performance vehicles. This is their niche. These are sports car manufacturers ONLY (excl. Cayenne).

Honda builds all types of cars catering to all kinds of demographics (not to mention motorcycles, lawnmowers, marine equipment, etc.).

Sad as it may seem, but we have to look at the big picture here.

 

[8000RPM]

RyRy, good points.

The Ferraris / Porsches / Lambos of the world make money from producing high-end sportscars, and as such it is a lot easier for them to justify designing newer and more powerful engines, implement more frequent updates, and introduce a greater number of new models all for the sake of greater performance .

High-performance sportscars are after all their core competence and their core business.

Therefore, as long as Honda makes tons of money courtesy of the Accord and the rest of its mainstream product portfolio, Honda probably doesn't care where the NSX stands within the automotive universe.

They probably don't even need a performance 'flagship' as long as they are producing stellar profits...

 

[Jimbo]

My sense is that Honda's biding their time with the NSX.

They are anticipating that the sports car market will come back and that's why they're only doing incremental minor updates.

Toyota's going to redo the Supra, Mazda's going to do the RX-7/8, Nissan has the 350Z....the SUV market shows signs of slowing down and sports cars could once again be a growing market.

I'm just puzzled why Honda would have took the effort to do the 2002 changes if they had no plans for continuing the NSX into the future.

We can hope.

-Jim

 

[PHOEN$X]

On the other hand....

There might be hope. All the kids that are into the blinging Civics/Evos/WRXs now, when they get older and come into some $$$, are they going to stay loyal to the Japanese car makers or abandon them and go to the Italian/Germans? I'm betting they're going to stay with Japanese, and Honda will need a high-end sports car to cater to this crowd.