Nice Move Michael

[Yellow Rose]

Webber had the line and MS pinches him? Not only should FIA fine him and Ferrari should fire him.....time for him to go to the villa.

Meanwhile, hats off to Michelin's RR tires at Istanbul.

 

[bsudiro]

Agreed! Very dumb move indeed!
As the speed channel guys said it .. 'Looks like he's human after all' .. :wink:

Cheers .. Gus

 

[92 white 0650]

Webber had the line

Not according to the "rules", at least as taught at the club level. As I saw it, Webber was inside but behind MS the entire time. MS foolishly closed the door with very little to gain since they were not racing for position, but he owned the line if anyone did. He's human for risking something for virtually nothing to gain. But if anyone's at fault, it's Webber. Common racing incident, though, nothing should come of it.

Ferrari should fire him

Have to disagree on this one. I don't think both MS and Reubens suddenly forgot how to drive. Ferrari simply built a pig this year and then there's Bridgestone ........obviously adrift too with very limited data. Shows how much the machinery dominates in F-1 compared to the driver.

 

[Yellow Rose]

As I saw it, Webber was inside but behind MS the entire time. <SNIP> But if anyone's at fault, it's Webber.

Respectfully, if someone is one the “inside” then they have the line. For Webber to have let MS go clear, this meant that MW needed to brake. Braking in a turn because someone closes the door on you?

I don't think both MS and Reubens suddenly forgot how to drive.

I really didn’t mean my comment to come off that way.....my apology. I am just of the opinion - and it is only my opinion - that as great of a world class driver he is, perhaps it is time for MS to bow out. By my own admission, me using the words “fire him” is a bit harsh.

 

[svalleynsx]

[/QUOTE]Meanwhile, hats off to Michelin's RR tires at Istanbul.

There was nothing wrong with the Michelin tires...this time. The sudden punctures were caused by improper pressures set by the Williams team.

 

[docjohn]

That lower pressure caused the tire to flex more and rub again the rear wing assembly

 

[92 white 0650]

if someone is one the “inside” then they have the line

Well, if it was you and me out there, we'd have a spirited post race discussion with the Chief Steward. But in the mean time, how about Skip Barber's "Going Faster" book? Would you accept that explanation of passing rules? Is so, I'll quote chapter and verse. Paraphrasing, it says that the car attempting the pass must be AHEAD of, not just inside, the other car at the turn in point before he owns the line. Look where contact was made. MS's front wheels were well ahead of Webber's. It may not have been that text-book simple, but from the TV coverage, it looked like it to me.

Edit: Chapter 9, P. 141: "If at the braking point, your car is dead along-side the car you're trying to pass, the overtaken car is obliged to leave room......If however, ......you're not quite alongside, as in having the front wheels up to the middle of the other car at the brake point, you haven't made the pass; it's your responsibility to get out of the way..." So, I stand corrected, the overtaking car must be (dead) along-side, not necessarily ahead. But anyway, Webber was inside, but not along-side, agreed?

as great of a world class driver he is, perhaps it is time for MS to bow out.

I interpret your position to be that he's over the hill but I don't think so. I'm not particularly a fan of his, I just think that he's still very capable and will be back next year if the rest of the team gets straightened out. He's doing dumb things because he's an intense racer and subject to mistakes that come with the "red mist". Hence the "just human" remarks.

 

[Yellow Rose]

white, doc, valley, et al - in retrospect, I agree with all of you. And it is this spirit of "agreeing to disagree" :smile: that allows discussions like this to continue without grenades being lobbed.

Ahh, red mist.....BTDT. :redface:

 

[NSX-Racer]

But anyway, Webber was inside, but not along-side, agreed?

Yes, that was what I saw too - Webber was about 1/4 of a car length behind. And of course MS didn't leave too much room left of him. But imagine the speeds these F1 cars have and the extremely short time to take a decision (especialy when you drive at the limit anyhow) - I would claim this a race incident where you can't give the guilt to one person.

"Having and keeping the line" does indeed play a role in free training days where everyone should avoid crashes and confusing the other drivers. But in race conditions that doesn't count too much - these guys want to win (and if it's only one place in the backmarkers field).

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Respectfully, if someone is one the “inside” then they have the line.

This is not true. If this is true, every racer will dive bomb for position entering a corner.

For Webber to have let MS go clear, this meant that MW needed to brake. Braking in a turn because someone closes the door on you?

Webber and Schumy incident falls into the grey area which will be chalked up as racing incident. Webber is almost side by side entering a corner. Michael shut the door on him which prompted Webber to slow down further and get inside as much as he can to avoid contact. As he slowed down more, he contacted Michael's car near the middle of the car, which make Webber look like the guilty party. Webber is definitely entitled to racing room IMHO.

If any of you are SCCA member and receive Sportscar magazine, Randy Pobst has a good article on his corner, "Pobst Position". I forgot what is the exact title but it is about passing and being pass. Very good article and I think it is a must read for any racer.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Nice Move Juan Pablo

We should really dissect Montoya's pass of Monteiro when Monteiro punted him and he lost a spot to Fred. Now that was really dumb. My first thought is that it was Monteiro's fault, but I'm not so sure, not having looked at closely. But maybe he brake checked the Jordon. Somebody locked em up, didn't they? Was that Juan or Monteiro? Either way, his fault or Monteiro's, Juan should know better than to expose his ass to a newbie/backmarker who can be very easily flustered and make such a mistake.

Oh, back to Michael, yes, he should have taken the high road and given Webber room. But.................. maybe he knew exactly where Webber was and purposefully chopped down (I use that term to mean a technically legal but ill advised move) on him to send a tough guy message; "I ain't rolling over for anybody"; sort of a chrome horn (Paul Tracy) statement. Anyone think that was a calculated move?

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Re: Nice Move Juan Pablo

Montoya incident is purely his fault imho. When you pass someone on a braking zone, never go back to racing line. Keep your passing line and continue the pass. Monteiro did not expect Montoya to cross back to his line in the braking zone. And he did whatever he can do to avoid Montoya.

 

[92 white 0650]

Montoya incident is purely his fault imho

Agreed and major repercussions to Kimi and the team. I would loved to heard the exchange between he an dRon Dennis as well as with Kimi afterward.

 

[Ponyboy]

Re: Nice Move Juan Pablo

Anyone think that was a calculated move?

:raises hand:

Schuey's underhandedness is a well-proven and oft repeated trait. His incident with JV is a prime example. His cuts, especially at Mika, at the start of GPs is another. And he's still one of my favs!

would loved to heard the exchange between he an Ron Dennis as well as with Kimi afterward.

It had to be bad. Dennis made mention of it in McLaren's official statement saying that "Kimi made sure not to get into racing incidents." Now if it that was from Flavio...

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Re: Nice Move Juan Pablo

I'm not sure if it is a calculated move. But MS have tendency to bully his way, which is almost always done by top player in any sports. And usually the referee, or stewards in this case let it by just because he is him.

In my limited experience running pro racing, I won't name names, but some top people in Speed WC just bully their way if they encounter other drivers, especially back markers. Some are really nice, like Billy Auberlen, Randy Pobst, and PD Cunningham.

BTW, I heard Flavio thanked Montoya afterwards, and asked him if he would like to continue working for Renault.