Next-Gen NSX to have a 7spd Paddle Shifter?

POWERED by HONDA

POWERED by HONDA

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According to this Temple of VTEC article: http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=147318 Honda's JDM CIVIC (A CIVIC!) will quote "The Civic 5door hatch now has a new variant the Civic XS which uses the excellent Multimatic transmission (HMM-S) but now fitted with the 7-speed sequential shifter mode as found on the Fit 1.5T. However the shifting is now via -paddles- fitted just behind the steering wheel, ala Ferrari F50 style !"

Watcha think?
 
I'm pretty sure the Porsche paddles are not true manual transmissions like they are in the Ferraris - anything but boring.
 
even it's a paddle shifter, if it's the transmission similar to the Fit...

It will be some sort of CVT transmission, they just programmed it to be seven speed..... No big deal... Since it's being CVT, they can even make it 16 speed with no problem, but I don't think anybody would like to drive a 16 speed car..... err.. maybe Biker who used to their 24 speed mountain bike?? :D
 
Yes, the "Fit" has a CVT 7 speed already, and this is probably what they are talking about. I doubt this will make into a high power car unless they change the design quite a lot.

Speaking of the "Fit," here is a funny story:
In Europe, the Fit was supposed to be called "Fitta", but they had to rename it to "Jazz" in the final few months before introduction. The reason for this was that Fitta means "the pussy" in some of the scandinavian countries. LOL.
 
speaking of Fit, Spoon custom fabricate one for the endurance race, According the Mr. Spoon...(I never remember his Jap. name.) The car makes a little more than 150 hp. (He also changed the car to Manual which is not available at all from Honda) They test it out at Suzuka and it turned out the lap times comparable to the 3.0 nsx, if not faster... They are confident for that result, since the lightness of the car will actually bring less tire wear, which in turn will help a lot in an endurance race.

It's hard to believe, but, wow!!!
 
NSXDreamer2 said:
(He also changed the car to Manual which is not available at all from Honda)
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The Jazz (ala Fit, Fitta) in Europe has a manual option. I've driven it myself. It's a regular 5 speed.
It's a great car by the way. So small on the outside, huge space on the inside, about 1000 kg, but no power. 83 hp.
A type R Jazz would be a great car! I wish they'd make one. It would be a mix between a Civic and a CRX, but with modern practicality. A true winner with the looks of this mugen model:

MUGEN%20FIT1.5-R.gif
MUGEN%20FIT1.5-F.gif
 
Just for trivia sake, the Porsche tiptronic is definitely not a sequential tranny. It is an automatic with a torque converter and a gear selector like the NSX auto.

A true sequential tranny is not boring at all. I tried one in a BMW M3 and, while diehard clutch worshippers will probably argue, it is definitely a fun ride.
 
Just a question here.....how do you do rev matching with that type of system.....i have a sport shift on my Acura TL Type-S and it is just not the same as a true manual...thank god the next gen car they are making with an available 6 speed manual which comes with brembos.
 
Acura NsX Pilot said:
how do you do rev matching with that type of system.....
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I think the system takes care of matching the revs. Basically, I think you drive it like you drive an automatic. Optionally, you can flip the paddles to get it to upshift and downshift, but it does all the rev matching for you. No?
 
nsxtasy said:
I think the system takes care of matching the revs. Basically, I think you drive it like you drive an automatic. Optionally, you can flip the paddles to get it to upshift and downshift, but it does all the rev matching for you. No?
Click to expand...

Yes, that is correct.
 
F1 Shifter Thoughts and Experience

naaman said:
Good Grief.

Paddles are boring. I tried them on a 911, and, well, it was just lame. I think I know why Ferrari built a few standard shift 360s...
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Where did you get to try a 911 with paddle shifters?!

Porsche doesn't make one with paddle shifters.

I've driven two systems, one disappointing (Maserati Coupe Cambiocorsa) and one very nice (BMW E46 M3). The M3's SMG-II(Sequential Manual Gearshift) system is quick and helps short guys like me because it gets rid of the long-throw BMW clutch. The Maserati system is too slow, and it isn't as adjustable as the BMW that has 6 shift settings and launch control.

EVO magazine chose the paddle shifters over the six speed in the new Gallardo. This is cool because they have chosen the six-speed manual in all other cars over paddles. This is especially cool because our Gallardo is coming in sometime in the next few weeks in Miami, and we got the E-Gear(paddle shift) option. We've got a 360 Spider with the manual 6-speed instead of the F1 because our 355 Spider had the F1 shifter and it sucked (according to my Dad as I never even saw the car before he sold it)

As far as a new NSX 7-speed goes, rumors are rumors, but the Honda F1 car has a 7-speed paddle shift system, the enzo has a 7-speed paddle shift system, and the next NSX (hopefully) will incorporate as much of the current F1 technology as Honda put into it in 1991. Only thing is, we don't have Ayrton Senna to test the handling of the new one, and with Honda's current standing in F1, I'm not sure I want the current drivers setting up the next NSX :(.

Matt W.
 
Oh Ya... one more thing

If you drove a porsche with steering wheel controls, that's a tiptronic automatic, not a sequentail gearbox. The tiptronic has a torque converter, just like every other automatic. The true sequential gearboxes are only available on a very short list of cars.

Ferraris - All Models
Lamborghini - All Models
Maserati - All Models
BMW - Z4, upcoming 5 & 6, M3
Toyota - MR2 Spyder
Aston Martin - Vanquish
Audi - Upcoming TT, maybe new S4 (but not yet)

and maybe a few others. No porsches, vettes, vipers,
 
Re: F1 Shifter Thoughts and Experience

slashmatt said:
Where did you get to try a 911 with paddle shifters?!

Porsche doesn't make one with paddle shifters.
Click to expand...
He probably meant the tiptronic system with the buttons, which is not a true semiautomatic sequential gearbox.

slashmatt said:
As far as a new NSX 7-speed goes, rumors are rumors, but the Honda F1 car has a 7-speed paddle shift system, the enzo has a 7-speed paddle shift system, and the next NSX (hopefully) will incorporate as much of the current F1 technology as Honda put into it in 1991. Only thing is, we don't have Ayrton Senna to test the handling of the new one, and with Honda's current standing in F1, I'm not sure I want the current drivers setting up the next NSX :(.
Click to expand...

Next NSX is for 2006, look at the current BAR-HONDA F1 car for the technology (V10, 7-speed...). IMHO, the PR will be made when Honda will win a F1 race again. I would expect Takuma Sato to be the new NSX development driver as he's about to be highly pushed/marketed for the BAR/HONDA team.
 
What is the difference (in actual driving experience) between a tiptronic and paddle shift then? Either way you simply push a button (more or less) and the gear changes. It won't shift on it's own, and since the "true" sequential manuals have an automatic clutch, why does it matter that the Porsche uses a torque converter and not a clutch?
 
naaman said:
What is the difference (in actual driving experience) between a tiptronic and paddle shift then? Either way you simply push a button (more or less) and the gear changes. It won't shift on it's own, and since the "true" sequential manuals have an automatic clutch, why does it matter that the Porsche uses a torque converter and not a clutch?
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There are lot of reasons. Torque converters can't handle alot of power. You can see this in the NSX automatic. Also, torque converters suck up alot of power. The drivetrain loss in an automatic car is much greater than that of a clutch driven car.

The shift feel is totally different as well. There are alot more technical reasons that other members can add, but the main thing is better performance & quicker (and more efficient) power delivery with the sequential manuals.
 
RyRy210 said:
The shift feel is totally different as well. There are alot more technical reasons that other members can add, but the main thing is better performance & quicker (and more efficient) power delivery with the sequential manuals.
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One of the biggest reasons to me is the time delay, Electronically Controlled Sequentials have minimum shift times ranging from 80ms to 220ms. E46 M3 SMG II and Maserati 4200GT have min shift times of 80ms, Ferrari's 360 Modena and Enzo have min shift times of 150ms, the Ferrari 575M and E36 M3 SMG clock at 220ms. Compare that to a Tiptronic's 500 ms+ Other more docile semiautomatic slushboxes can take up to an entire second to switch gears.

Even faster than a conventional SMG though is the Audi TT V6 transmission, which has a Twin Clutch Sequential Manual, with shift times as low as 8ms. :eek: :eek: 10 times faster than the SMG II.

It was also rumored that Mclaren-Mercedes Formula 1 car for 2003 (MP4-18A) was delayed for the development of a twin clutch gearbox. Currently all formula 1 cars use conventional single clutch gearboxes.
 
naaman said:
What is the difference (in actual driving experience) between a tiptronic and paddle shift then? Either way you simply push a button (more or less) and the gear changes. It won't shift on it's own, and since the "true" sequential manuals have an automatic clutch, why does it matter that the Porsche uses a torque converter and not a clutch?
Click to expand...

The main reason I do not like the tiptronic is that "disconnected" feel between the engine and the drivetrain, one always get from an automatic transmission.
 
sequential trannys get better too...

Like all things, they've improved quite a bit over time...

The F355 was NOT as smooth -- IIRC, upshifts were kinda jerky (in max "sport" mode), and manually blipping the throttle on downshifts helped. In the 360 F1, blips on downshifts are computer-actuated (ala BMW E46 M3), but they still advise you to lift on upshifts to make them smoother. 360 F1 is a LOT better than the unit on F355.

The one on the Maserati is much less evolved... nowhere near as smooth as those on the 360, even rougher I believe than the F355.

The SMG-II on the E46 M3 is one of the better setups available; the SMG available on Z4 and other non-M cars is based off an earlier version (not as smooth or flexible).

The e-gear on the Lambo Gallardo is said to be at least as good, if not better than, that on the 360, and comparable to BMW SMG-II. Haven't driven one yet, but the few I've watched so far seem to be PLENTY quick (Murcielago-level performance).

##########

As mentioned earlier, Porsche 911/986 Tiptronic are really automatics (with power-sapping torque converter) with pushbutton up/down shifts -- similar to SportShift on some Acuras, including NSX auto. Good news is that they do not "detune" the motor in their Tiptronics (ala the 3.0L NA1 motor in the NSX auto). Note that Porsche does have a CVT type tranny available; to my knowledge they have not made it available on their road cars.

##############

Audi's latest approach uses a CVT that has n (5-7) predefined "settings" that simulate a 5-7 speed automanual box. Theoretically even smoother than the computer-aided systems on BMW and Ferrari, but with added mechanical complexity and I suspect weight.
 
Thanks. That's a lot of info, but I think you all misunderstood my question.

What I meant was that compared to a standard shift, pressing a button or a paddle is just weak. Perfect shifts are no longer an accomplishment, no tactile feedback etc. Functionally, a SMG seems to serve the exact same purpose as a tiptronic. Performance aside, the fun of dropping the clutch, and heel-toeing etc is eliminated from the driving experience.

Not to mention that according to Motor Trend (I think... it could have been Automobile), the standard shift 360 was running to 60 in 3.9 sec, and the quarter mile in 12.1 sec. There was no time listed for the F1 360, but R&T clocked it at 4.3 and 12.8 respectively.

I'm just not seeing a functional difference between SMG and Tiptronic.
 
naaman said:
Not to mention that according to Motor Trend (I think... it could have been Automobile), the standard shift 360 was running to 60 in 3.9 sec, and the quarter mile in 12.1 sec. There was no time listed for the F1 360, but R&T clocked it at 4.3 and 12.8 respectively.
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You can't compare such measurements from one magazine to another when even 0.5 second differences can easily be attributed and linked to testing conditions and/or testing equipment and/or testing set-up. The only valid comparison would be if the same people did the same type of measurement, with the same equipment, at the same place, during the same hour, back-2-back and at least with two repetitions (one way and the other to compensate for road grade, wind direction...)

naaman said:
I'm just not seeing a functional difference between SMG and Tiptronic.
Click to expand...

If you try'em, you'll see the difference between an automatically shifted manual transmission (SMG) and a sequentially shifted automatic (ala Tiptronic). You can't mistake them.

As for the "enjoyement", you can have a lots of fun, even with a "tiptronic". Ask all the kids out there racing/playing in their living rooms :D
 
apapada said:
You can't compare such measurements from one magazine to another when even 0.5 second differences can easily be attributed and linked to testing conditions and/or testing equipment and/or testing set-up. The only valid comparison would be if the same people did the same type of measurement, with the same equipment, at the same place, during the same hour, back-2-back and at least with two repetitions (one way and the other to compensate for road grade, wind direction...)
Click to expand...

I know. that's why I quoted the different sources. But most of the 360 data that I have seen is for the F1, which seems to be between 4.2 and 4.3. I've only ever seen one set of numbers for the standard 360, which is what I quoted above. But can anyone put into words why flicking a paddle is "more fun" than pressing a button, and, supposedly as rewarding as a clutch/stick?
 
Source: Autoweek

BMW's Formula One-style gearbox may become only performance transmission option

Do you like the stick shift and the clutch pedal in your BMW M car? Enjoy it now because the folks in Munich have seen the future and it’s called SMG (as in Sequential Manual Gearbox).
The company’s second-generation SMG is an option on the M3, and the next-generation M5 will also feature the Formula One racing-style paddle shifters, sans the traditional clutch pedal and gearshift lever. According to Rolf Scheibner, product manager for M cars, it won’t be long before SMG is the only transmission option for the performance cars.

“With SMG, you can shift faster and it is better for the engine, the clutch and the transmission,” says Scheibner. “With the M cars, top performance is the key, and with SMG, it is the top performance.”
Click to expand...

This has been confirmed by the BMW product manager. Looks like conventional manuals will soon be like tape decks.

Eventhough we might like the manual shifting, my future grandsons might just look back on us and see it as a medieval way of driving.
 
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