I dont know about the rest of you but I cant stand the auto paddle shift. Its just fun to switch gears and be in total control of the car. I am really excited and plan on getting a new gen NSX but if they only make it in auto Im going to pass.
NEW GEN NSX in manual or auto
- Thread starter GlowNSX
- Start date
It's not clear what you mean
Are you saying you want to be able to shift gears with a console mounted gear shift or you like the control offered by direct clutch hook-up?
The new NSX will have a dual clutch transmission but with paddle shifting instead of a console mounted gear shifter.
It is not an automatic transmission with a torque converter.
The paddle shifting is faster than using a console mounted gear shift, and most importantly allows you to keep two hands on the steering wheel while shifting.
Are you saying you want to be able to shift gears with a console mounted gear shift or you like the control offered by direct clutch hook-up?
The new NSX will have a dual clutch transmission but with paddle shifting instead of a console mounted gear shifter.
It is not an automatic transmission with a torque converter.
The paddle shifting is faster than using a console mounted gear shift, and most importantly allows you to keep two hands on the steering wheel while shifting.
Given the complexity of the drivetrain in the NSX 2.0, DCT makes the most sense overall.
Forced Induction (of yet to be known variety, exhaust gas only, electric assist for spool up of turbo's?) , electric motor assist on top of that in series to the engine, and independent front electric motors.
There will be sophisticated programming happening that will allow the various components to work in harmony prior to a gear change, in order to achieve the best performance at the same time retaining civility as well as reliability.
It would be very hard to do that when you have a simple manual transmission, there is no effective means to control or predict how fast a driver will engage their foot in the clutch, how long they will keep the clutch disengaged, and how fast they will engage the clutch, on top of that it will need to know if the gear change will be for a downshift or for an upshift.
Simple mechanisms like synchro rev match (per Nissan, Porsche) where the engine is rev matched for downshifts becomes a much more complex operation when there are so many other components in play providing propulsion to the vehicle besides the engine.
Forced Induction (of yet to be known variety, exhaust gas only, electric assist for spool up of turbo's?) , electric motor assist on top of that in series to the engine, and independent front electric motors.
There will be sophisticated programming happening that will allow the various components to work in harmony prior to a gear change, in order to achieve the best performance at the same time retaining civility as well as reliability.
It would be very hard to do that when you have a simple manual transmission, there is no effective means to control or predict how fast a driver will engage their foot in the clutch, how long they will keep the clutch disengaged, and how fast they will engage the clutch, on top of that it will need to know if the gear change will be for a downshift or for an upshift.
Simple mechanisms like synchro rev match (per Nissan, Porsche) where the engine is rev matched for downshifts becomes a much more complex operation when there are so many other components in play providing propulsion to the vehicle besides the engine.
All the powerful codes control all the fun things we like and does a way better job at it (ie GTR).....I think that is what Glow is saying. Ninja-shifts/64-bit/etc. only matters on track where there is $$$$$/ego on the line not what most of us do on the road or even club drives. If you drive at wrap speed(F1,2,3,4...) then you'll need two hands on the steering at all time and less things to worry about thx to the codes. Otherwise, you are just going for a ride.
Thank you liftnot. That is what I'm saying.
I don't really care about all the technology if it takes all the fun out of driving. I don't like paddle shifting.
I guess I may be destined for an R8.
I don't really care about all the technology if it takes all the fun out of driving. I don't like paddle shifting.
I guess I may be destined for an R8.
Interesting real world comparison on dual clutch vs manual:
http://www.excellence-mag.com/issues/217/articles/best-of-both-worlds?page=1#.Uxsx6Ch8O5R
http://www.excellence-mag.com/issues/217/articles/best-of-both-worlds?page=1#.Uxsx6Ch8O5R
Excellent article Steve!
Sums it up nicely particularly the advantages for the less experienced track driver (like me)
Thanks for the article Hothonda! I guess that really sums it up.
Track time - 2:28.9 (manual 6 speed) v. 2.27.4 (PDK 7 speed) - Im sure the extra gear would shave off a little time. I have no doubt on a race track you could concentrate more on other things than shifting which would make you faster. However, I am not interested in tracking my car nor am I concerned with 1.5 sec difference after 2 1/2 minutes of driving.
Looks great in magazines but not in my "butt dyno" or my "expressway on-ramp time". Give me a manual please.
Track time - 2:28.9 (manual 6 speed) v. 2.27.4 (PDK 7 speed) - Im sure the extra gear would shave off a little time. I have no doubt on a race track you could concentrate more on other things than shifting which would make you faster. However, I am not interested in tracking my car nor am I concerned with 1.5 sec difference after 2 1/2 minutes of driving.
Looks great in magazines but not in my "butt dyno" or my "expressway on-ramp time". Give me a manual please.
Once it was decided that the NSX2.0 would go with AWD, hybrid with electric motors up front with torque vectoring and regenerative braking any real sense of the driver been in control went out of the door.
The car been either a manual or DCT would be pretty much academic at that point, since the car is already doing quite a bit of driving by itself.
Adding DCT optimizes and makes it possible for all the systems to work in synergy in the most efficient way possible.
I guess some folks just don't get it, that it is not just about laptimes, it is the ability to integrate all the various methods of propulsion that the car will have in a cohesive way so the hand offs or cooperation between the various components happens smoothly.
I have ZERO interest in buying a NSX2.0 given the complexity of the drivetrain, yet I am spending time breaking down the method to the madness, very ironic..
Really makes me wonder how much folks have kept up with the automotive industry, how engine mapping work on modern high performance cars, the various forms of traction control that exists today, electronic brake distribution, torque vectoring, e-diffs,e-throttle, etc, etc.
The car been either a manual or DCT would be pretty much academic at that point, since the car is already doing quite a bit of driving by itself.
Adding DCT optimizes and makes it possible for all the systems to work in synergy in the most efficient way possible.
I guess some folks just don't get it, that it is not just about laptimes, it is the ability to integrate all the various methods of propulsion that the car will have in a cohesive way so the hand offs or cooperation between the various components happens smoothly.
I have ZERO interest in buying a NSX2.0 given the complexity of the drivetrain, yet I am spending time breaking down the method to the madness, very ironic..
Really makes me wonder how much folks have kept up with the automotive industry, how engine mapping work on modern high performance cars, the various forms of traction control that exists today, electronic brake distribution, torque vectoring, e-diffs,e-throttle, etc, etc.
I LOVE the automatic 6spd in my BRZ. It feels like a CVT when it needs to be an efficient commuter. It follows directions when in manual and it shifts better than most people when in race mode. And this is just a cheap $25k car. Technology has come a loooong way.
With these new complicated hybrid drivetrains you need the programming of the transmission to take advantage of it even in normal street driving.
There are still people who prefer carburetors but there is NO ONE that complains about EFI anymore. Remember when the 1950s Corvette came out with EFI? Everyone hated it back then too. Look where the technology is now. 500hp cars can get 35mpg and be super smooth with a great power curve.
With these new complicated hybrid drivetrains you need the programming of the transmission to take advantage of it even in normal street driving.
There are still people who prefer carburetors but there is NO ONE that complains about EFI anymore. Remember when the 1950s Corvette came out with EFI? Everyone hated it back then too. Look where the technology is now. 500hp cars can get 35mpg and be super smooth with a great power curve.
I've been thinking about your post for a few days and a bit puzzled about your comment about the driver no longer being in control of the car with the modern hybrid drivetrains.
My daily driver is a 92 Mercedes 300 4matic wagon.
Using the ABS wheel sensors the ECU determines if there is a low traction situation and sends either 1/3 or 1/2 of the power to the front wheels as needed.
It turns on or off very quickly and automatically and you only know what it's doing by a dash indicator.
The system is an early 4matic version and the new ones are much better but mine still works seamlessly.
In no way do I feel I am not in control of the car and the car is safer with the 4matic system.
I don't see how the new NSX with front electric drive is any different other than not needing the heavy transfer case and front differential.
Presumably the new NSX ECU will operate the same way as the old Mercedes.
The ECU receives input and sends power to the front wheel electric motors and/or it collects regenerative power under braking.
How will this remove driver control?
As far as I can figure out a DCT transmission has no adverse effect on driver control at all.
The DCT is a manual connection between the gas and electric engines and the final drive and offers the same connection as a conventional single clutch and transmission.
The only difference is instead of shifting gears with a console mounted lever, gears are shifted by a solenoid.
Whether a car has a gas engine, an electric engine, or both, the conventional clutch and transmission or DCT perform the same function, that is allowing torque to be multiplied and power to be sent to the final drive or not.
How does this remove driver control?
Cars are so much better today than 30 years ago.
The electronics, ABS, traction controls, hybrid drivelines, direct injection, lightweight materials etc. are such an improvement in longevity, handling and reduced maintenance.
The new F1 drive systems not only use exhaust gas to generate power to drive electric motors in the turbo but seamlessly move power between gas and electric motors both under braking and at less than full throttle conditions and is truly amazing.
We are fortunate that McLaren, Porsche, Ferrari and now Honda are leading the way in these new technologies.
But in no way have I seen anywhere that these new machines have taken any control away from the driver.
If anything they seem to give the driver more control over what he can do with a car.
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Sigh...
It looks like we are getting stuck in semantics on what it means for the driver to be "in control".
You definition includes all the layers of driving aids that helps a driver to be in control of a vehicle in almost all conditions.
No pushing, no sliding, idiot proof to a degree, just 3 inputs, steering, gas and brakes. Behind the scenes the ECU does whatever is necessary to keep the car going in the direction pointed at close to the speed that is been requested by the driver.
That is what a car like the R35 Nissan GT-R does for example, and that is why it is criticized by many.
The definition for the purists is the complete opposite of that, the driver been in control means that there are very few layers between the driver and the car when it comes to driving.
For some folks a fun car is a car that can do controlled power drifts, donuts, burnouts, etc, with the driver been in control of all the various inputs (gas, brakes and steering).
If they want to rev the engine to high RPMS and then drop the clutch to do a burnout they just do that.
If they want to drive at the edge, with the driver controlling the amount of throttle that is applied so that the car is neutral and is not pushing nor sliding, that is a sense of them been in control and gives them satisfaction.
Like previously mentioned people do all kinds of driving, because I don't participate in those kinds of driving it does not prevent me from understanding that they would like to have control of how power is applied to the wheels.
With some DCT systems there is always power been delivered to the wheels, there is no pause in the power delivery. Some things that can be done to upset a car with a simple manual transmission become impossible with a DCT. Is that good or bad, I don't know, for those drivers that want to upset the car on purpose using the clutch they are in fact losing a method of control.
IMHO, It's better if we can agree to disagree since I just happen to have different views regarding complex systems.
The only thing that I can say is, have you actually kept up with all the 2014 F1 pre-season testing?
Okay then, sorry to cause you to sigh about my questions.
Perhaps another reader could explain the difference between my old Mercedes on-demand AWD and the new NSX on-demand AWD and an owner of a DCT equipped car could chime in about whether they feel they have lost anything from the conventional clutch console shifter set-up
I have the new NSX on order and would like to learn about what's coming.
As far as F1 goes I've been to four races and follow updates from the usual websites daily.
Perhaps another reader could explain the difference between my old Mercedes on-demand AWD and the new NSX on-demand AWD and an owner of a DCT equipped car could chime in about whether they feel they have lost anything from the conventional clutch console shifter set-up
I have the new NSX on order and would like to learn about what's coming.
As far as F1 goes I've been to four races and follow updates from the usual websites daily.
My intention was not to come across as dismissive, it is just that sometimes when it comes to certain automotive topics it is like discussing politics or religion. There will always be different opinions by different folks and I did not want to stir the proverbial pot by taking sides.
I can't comment on the AWD of the NSX2.0 since I don't know how exactly it will operate.
In regards to DCT, I own a 2010 GT-R and have driven many Porsche's with PDK transmissions and also own a 2012 Porsche Cayman R with a 6 speed manual.
I feel 100% connected with the Cayman because I literally have to do everything (just like the original NSX).
I also feel about 90-95% connected in the GT-R in a different way because I don't have to focus on the shifting (kind of a good thing on a 485hp+ car) yet I am able to enjoy the extra power and the insane amounts of grip that the car has. That been said I am aware that some of that extra grip is due to the electronics behind the scenes doing their magic.
I have also driven a F458 with a DCT on the track. The combination between the raspy sound of the high revving naturally aspirated V8 and the DCT was pure bliss, the perfectly rev matched downshifts with the associated bark of the exhaust would be something that might be a bit hard to emulate with a manual. I felt 100% connected to the F458, been that it is a mid-engine car with a high rev naturally aspirated engine. I wish that the NSX2.0 would have taken a similar approach to the F458, by just keeping things simple.
I chose a 6 speed for my Cayman R (although PDK was available) to keep the long term ownership costs low because the Cayman is my track car, and I still find satisfaction been able to manage to do a proper heel and toe downshift while threshold braking at the track.
IMHO DCT is perfectly fine for most stock applications, if issues related to proper cooling are addressed by the manufacturers.
That being said modifying a DCT is a whole different league than working on a manual transmission, even more complex if the drivetrain happens to be a hybrid drivetrain.
My comment regarding the 2014 F1 pre-season testing, is based on the performance and the complexity of the new powertrains as well as the comments that were made by the drivers.
The complexity of the new powertrains have given most teams headaches during pre-season testing. Doing simple tasks like switching transmissions used to be possible in several hours due to the new packaging of the new units that is no longer possible. Interfacing different modules presented a challenge to the engineers as well. Overheating was a common theme across the Renault powered teams, etc, etc.
Drivers like Kimi, have spun their cars due to the extra torque that was available down low in the new powertrains, some drivers having to get used to the brake by wire system due to the regenerative braking capabilities of the car (just like KERS affecting brake bias settings in prior years).
IMHO complex systems are not usually the easiest systems to work with, in turn they could potentially cost more time and money to diagnose and repair compared to simpler systems.
There is nothing wrong with the NSX2.0 if what Honda decided happens to be your cup of tea, a tour deforce of bleeding edge technology (I chose bleeding edge for a reason).
I don't doubt that the NSX2.0 will be fun to drive, but I don't hold any illusions that the long term cost of ownership will be lower than a car that has a simpler powertrain design.
We've digressed quite a bit from GlowNSX's original post, but hopefully folks do have a better understanding why DCT paired with the hybrid drivetrain makes the most sense.
Cool article.
The dual clutch systems today are really fantastic.
I think if you want a pure manual driving experience, an all-wheel-drive hybrid torque vectoring sportscar is probably not the best way to get it, regardless of gearbox.
I agree about the more complexity = more complications thought process. I am really excited about the cutting-edge tech that they are applying to the Honda/Acura flagship NSX, but I also secretly hope that they make a simpler version, where there are less chances for electronics to fail over the years and the drivetrain would be as RAW (or as close to it as it could be in today's world) as the current 458. I think there will be a fail-safe for the new NSX where the car will run on RWD and engine solely in case of hybrid battery or component failure. The EPS or 4WS failure of previous cars never disabled a car, just the particular function with a dash light to let you know that it needs to be serviced. It would just make sense to have the car still usable/mobile in the event of a malfunctioning electrical system. I could also see a few owners gutting the hybrid system out completely in the future and converting it to a purely RWD car perhaps. There's always a way around certain things I'd say.
You said yourself that driving the DCT 458 is still very rewarding and the connection is there so the clutch and shift lever is not necessarily mandatory for 100% connection to the road. I believe everything else will be sublime with the major transition to DCT for top performance vehicles, even though we may lose the extra action of the left foot and incur some maintenance and price upcharges.
I dislike the term DCT when describing cars with paddle shifters. The NA1 came with a dual clutch transmission. I prefer the term Sequential Manual Transmission, wether it's paddle shifters or a stick shifter on the console, or the shifter on a motorcycle.
DCT is DUAL CLUTCH... in other words, two clutches. The NSX has never had a DCT before. I think you're referring to a dual plate clutch... a single clutch with two plates. A DCT alternates clutches between odd and even gears. This is why a DCT *requires* a paddle -- a computer is required to release one clutch while the alternate clutch is engaged. No human could ever do this manually without blowing up the transmission. Sequential gearboxes are still another type of gearbox and not necessarily require paddles. Paddles can work on many different types of gearboxes. A DCT requires them. Also, because a DCT has alternating clutches, it shifts incredibly fast... this is nothing like the paddle shifters you've used on older cars, like the triptronic (manumatic.)
+1, exactly.
The old tiptronic slushboxes and the new dual clutch systems are two totally different things.
Sequential manual gearbox is also different.
F1/e-gear automated manual is also different, albeit a closer experience to DCT.
fastaussie
Suspended
the biggest, and perhaps, only reason (full on, clutch on the floor) manual transmissions are going away is quite simple. they're not selling. the vast majority of Corvettes have always been automatics. and in the Ferrari 430, less than 2% were ordered as true manuals. therefor the 458 was only ever offered with a DCT paddle shifted transmission. in another 5 years, proper manual transmissions with a clutch on the floor will probably be a thing of the past.
so buy up all the old clutch on the floor cars now boys, or get used to those paddle shifters...
so buy up all the old clutch on the floor cars now boys, or get used to those paddle shifters...
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The truth of that statement notwithstanding, a sports car is first and foremost supposed to be fun to drive. For some, the paddles subtract from the enjoyment of the car. To such people, a two-pedal car is an instant deal breaker. For me, a proper manual transmission with a clutch pedal and a "stick shift" is the only acceptible format for a transmission.
I once brought my 98 Camaro into the dealer for some work. A salesman asked if I wanted to drive one of the new ones (2012), and I initially declined because I just have no interest in the car. He persisted, and after I made it clear that I was not willing to buy one, I agreed to test drive the car. He did not have one that was a stick shift available. Only the auto with the paddles (I know, it's not technically the same, but the ergonomic experience is essentially the same). I was not impressed. First, the car, being "new" with all the techno doo-dads and goodies that add 800 lbs to the car slowed it down to the point that it felt no faster (possibly slower) than my car, dispite its engine having a 100+ horsepower advantage. Second, when I was tooling around on the street at 15 mph in 2nd gear (it was in "M" mode, about 1500 rpm, if I remember correctly), I wanted to see just how strong it would pull. I flicked the left paddle to select first. I heard no blip or response from the engine/transmission. I looked at the dash display and saw the message: "shift denied." Seriously? That was a deal breaker, once and for all.
For some, like me, the most important aspect of driving is the experience of driving the car. The more the MFR takes away from me in terms of my control over the car and its obedience to my input, the less I'm interested in it. I don't want the PCM to "blip" the throttle for me. I don't want it to cut fuel in order to enhance "hook up." I want to operate the car.
fastaussie
Suspended
it's massively unfortunate, but there's not enough people like you buying cars like these for the manufacturers to offer them in a true manual with a clutch pedal...
It is sad the vast majority of buyers prefer automatics. At least there will always (should*) be cars like the Corvette, FRS/BRZ, Civic SI, WRX, etc. that will still come in the classic clutch and stick.
They could always provide a dummy clutch in DCT cars and put a sequential shifter on the center console to mimic the clutch and stick action haha. Essentially a clutch pedal that is not connected to any thing but provides spring pressure like a typical clutch and then you can row the shifter up or down to tell the DCT to shift in manual mode
I know it sounds a bit silly, but that's pretty much the fun that is described when clutching and shifting is involved.
They could always provide a dummy clutch in DCT cars and put a sequential shifter on the center console to mimic the clutch and stick action haha. Essentially a clutch pedal that is not connected to any thing but provides spring pressure like a typical clutch and then you can row the shifter up or down to tell the DCT to shift in manual mode
I know it sounds a bit silly, but that's pretty much the fun that is described when clutching and shifting is involved.
They could always provide a dummy clutch in DCT cars and put a sequential shifter on the center console to mimic the clutch and stick action haha. Essentially a clutch pedal that is not connected to any thing but provides spring pressure like a typical clutch and then you can row the shifter up or down to tell the DCT to shift in manual mode
It not only sounds but it is totally, completely, absolutely and undisputably silly at its silliest !!!
Do you genuinely believe that people will be dumb enough to use something that is useless, and that adds nothing to the performance just for the feeling? Nobody will do it.
Any other great ideas like this one? MEGA LOL
You would be hired immediately in a company building shopping mall sportscar machines ...
Do you know a lot of people who keep pressing the power window button when knowing it has a full auto fonction?
It sounds silly, but depressing the dummy clutch fully could electronically unlock the ability to shift into another gear. So in a sense, if you don't activate the clutch switch, the rowing of the shifter will not change gears, except you will at least not damage the tranny like you would in a traditional stick car.
That's the nice thing about electronics. You can do a lot of extra stuff with customization. They could even emulate the catching point of a real clutch, just like the throttle-by-wire idea where the throttle cable is completely eliminated, but the peddle feel is still nice in the NSX.
You make fun of it now, but mark my words, it's a legitimate possibility in the future for those who are feeling nostalgic in DCT cars. It'll never be the same as engaging a real clutch and pulling cables to change gears, but they can still convey the action. Something is better than nothing. There will be a link between the DCT and the old fashion clutch and stick versus the quicker paddle shifter. Someone will do it.
That's the nice thing about electronics. You can do a lot of extra stuff with customization. They could even emulate the catching point of a real clutch, just like the throttle-by-wire idea where the throttle cable is completely eliminated, but the peddle feel is still nice in the NSX.
You make fun of it now, but mark my words, it's a legitimate possibility in the future for those who are feeling nostalgic in DCT cars. It'll never be the same as engaging a real clutch and pulling cables to change gears, but they can still convey the action. Something is better than nothing. There will be a link between the DCT and the old fashion clutch and stick versus the quicker paddle shifter. Someone will do it.
