need some input on tires for a novice/intermediate track student

[MLmotorsport]

I'm a novice on the track (only 4 days on the track and a couple auto-x's under my belt). I'm prepping for 4 Driving events all within a month's time and am now at a tire-decision point in my preperations. This is for the '92 (mods listed in signature) on 15/16 stockers. I currently have the oem yoko's on right now but I've been advised to get a spare front and rear tire and have them with me just in case a tire gets damaged on the track. That's good advice and I was very close to ordering them - then it hit me - "do I want to stay with street tires that much longer?" Maybe I should just get a full set of r-compounds and switch to those once the current tires wear out (or one is damaged).
Now for the question to the instructors: With my minimal track time I'm not looking for killer times - I'm looking to learn. Will track tires this soon mask problems/deficiencies in my driving or does it not matter that much? I know they make a big difference and they would raise my speeds in every area but is it too much too soon (assuming I can get at least 4-6 more track days out of the current tires)? I'm just trying to avoid buying more tires that I won't ever use.
I've heard good things about the Kumho's (V700-710's?) but am open to all suggestions.
For what it's worth, I'll be adding a harness bar and 4-pt harnesses before my next events as well.

 

[nsxtasy]

Speaking as an experienced instructor, I strongly recommend using street tires at this point in time. You are working at the limits of your driving ability, which are nowhere near the limits of your street tires. So getting track tires will not improve your lap times. (Try having an instructor drive you around the track at speed and you'll see what I mean.) And, as you point out, they will mask any learning, because track tires typically do not provide warning before losing grip.

After you go through at least these four events on street tires, you might consider R compounds. But not now.

Incidentally, I don't agree with that advice about keeping spare tires in case one gets damaged on the track. I've driven in around 200 track events and, until last weekend, never had a problem with one getting damaged on the track. (Last weekend I had a flat but I'm not sure if it occurred due to track damage or not; I was done with my track driving by that point, and drove home on the orange spare.) So it's not exactly a likely occurrence. I wouldn't bother. (But if you have an extra set of wheels already, then when your stock tires wear out, if you get more, you can keep the worn ones as a backup to bring with you.)

As for which R compound track tires, I found that the Kumho V700/V710 wear out too quickly. I prefer the Toyo RA-1; in the stock '91-93 sizes, I can fit the track tires inside the car and drive to the track on my street tires (see below for what fits when you're going to the track). However, there are a lot of excellent track tires on the market right now, including these, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, Yokohama A032R and A048, Hankook Z211 and Z214, Avon Tech R, Hoosier R3S05/R3S06, etc.

 

[MLmotorsport]

Speaking as an experienced instructor, I strongly recommend using street tires at this point in time....
Incidentally, I don't agree with that advice about keeping spare tires in case one gets damaged on the track.
As for which R compound track tires, I found that the Kumho V700/V710 wear out too quickly. I prefer the Toyo RA-1; in the stock '91-93 sizes, I can fit the track tires inside the car and drive to the track on my street tires (see below for what fits when you're going to the track). However, there are a lot of excellent track tires on the market right now, including these, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, Yokohama A032R and A048, Hankook Z211 and Z214, Avon Tech R, Hoosier R3S05/R3S06, etc.

Thanks Ken,
That'll save me even more money!! :biggrin:
I will probably take my street wheels with me just in case. The last event of the series will be the Prosport Drivers Group which is one solid day on the Putnam Park track (up to 7 hrs - realistically...maybe 4-5?). This event director suggested the spare front & rear tires. Maybe I'll have some r's by the time Xpo rolls around :smile:

 

[nsxtasy]

The last event of the series will be the Prosport Drivers Group which is one solid day on the Putnam Park track (up to 7 hrs - realistically...maybe 4-5?). This event director suggested the spare front & rear tires.

Realistically, it's really tough to drive more than about three hours spread out during the course of the day. Heck, I'm a track whore - I'm not sure I know anyone who has put on more miles than I have in a three-day weekend (519, last April at Mid-Ohio) - but three hours (roughly 250 track miles) is already pretty exhausting. Think of it as a half hour on and a half hour off, all day long, more or less. It's VERY tough to keep up that pace, and to keep your concentration sharp. I'm not telling you what to do, just keep that in mind, and when you feel tired and start missing a few apexes, consider going in and taking a break.

I was at Putnam Park three weeks ago with the Hoosier Chapter BMW CCA, and the weather was perfect. I did 350 track miles. That equates to roughly 250 on Friday when there is an open track for instructors and advanced students, and another 100 on Saturday and Sunday combined, in between riding along with students.

I think that took off between 1 and 2 32nds of an inch of tread on my R compound track tires. Expect less treadwear on street tires. So you're not likely to run out of tread unless they're already worn down to the treadwear indicator bars. But if you have spares that you want to take, go for it! (Pack them in 39-gallon lawn and garden bags to keep the car clean. Put a rear tire in the trunk, and a front tire behind the passenger seat. That will leave the rest of the trunk and your passenger seat for all your other stuff.)

 

[titaniumdave]

I Agree with ken, wait on the R-compounds. They can really mask places where you need to work on smoothness, I got to switch back and forth at Thunderhill because of rain, and when it dried out during a session when I was still on my SO-3's, I could really tell where the extra grip of my RA-1's let me 'slop' my way through corners. Street tires are a great learning tool, get as fast as you can be on street tires, then step up.

When you go with R compound tires, you will need to change your alignment to really take advantage of the increased grip, they need more negative camber to hook up well. Plus I like less toe, front and rear, but that is personal preference. Look at front compliant clamps too, big difference with sticker tires.

Take a look at 5 or 6 point harnesses. I did not feel comfortable with a 4 point in my car, IMO you are safer with the stock 3 point and use a CG lock to keep your butt planted. The 4 point seems very hard to keep on my pelvis in the stock seats. Dali stocks a sub belt mount bracket for the stock seats.

 

[nsxtasy]

One other point - remove the spare from your car before taking it on the track, and remove the rubber end caps on the horizontal beam that the spare bolts to. I've learned from experience (missing bolt at the top of the support beam, stripped threads on the wing nut, and missing rubber end caps) that it's best to avoid problems by doing so. If you're bringing extra tires or track tires with you to the track, leave the spare at home; otherwise, bring it with you but take it out of the car before going on the track.

 

[MLmotorsport]

Ken
I hope to be able to hang with you whore's someday :biggrin:

I'm trailering the car to Putnam because I'll be there for a week and it's 7 hrs from here so I'll throw the wheels in the truck (I have seen your procedure on toting oem wheels in the car though - very nice!). I don't want to be stuck there should something unthinkable happen :redface: Thanks for all the info! I'm no longer worried about the tires.

Dave
That's what I was looking for. As I'm still a newbie it looks like it would be wise to stay on the street tires for a while yet. :smile:
I've watched a couple of the harness-wars here on Prime. I have the CG Locks and they didn't do much for me. The 4-pts I'm looking at are the Schroth (anti-sub "break away" shoulder) which have the option to add the 5th point. I know I'll get flamed for this excuse but I have a hard time cutting into my brand new suede seats for the 5th point. I don't want to buy the dali seat cushion (X2 for an instructor) because I don't want to lose 2 inches in seating height. Maybe I'll make some cuts in a year when the seats aren't so new. :biggrin: As I understand it the 4-pt belts work like the 3-pt in that one shoulder "releases" upon impact?

 

[nsxtasy]

One more note about the area around Putnam Park. In years past, the restaurant at the Walden Inn in Greencastle and always featured excellent food. They are now under new management and it's terrible! I've tried most of the other places around there, and have been unimpressed. While I was there last month, a few friends ate at Old Toppers Pub & Steak in Greencastle 765-653-9477 and said it was decent.

There are plenty of places in Indianapolis, if you don't mind the drive...

 

[DCNSX]

quote: use a CG lock to keep your butt planted.

Any recommendations on a CG lock? Should I bother to get two? (One for me and one for the instructor?)

 

[titaniumdave]

As I understand it the 4-pt belts work like the 3-pt in that one shoulder "releases" upon impact?

The stock 3 point has the advantage of tightening if you have an impact, the shoulder belt pulls you back and down into the seat with the SRS(I have experienced this, and it works!) So I stand by my statement this is better(safer) than a 4 point, IMO, stay stock or go 5/6 point. If the CG lock did not work for you, the 4 point will be even less effective because you can't tighten it as easily. When I had a CG lock, I would get everything adjusted how I like for position, then pull as hard as I could up on the shoulder belt, through the lock. I could get it so tight I thought I would bust my bladder! If you aren't getting this kind of force, check how it is installed. Mine was so tight, I had to released he seat buckle to get the lock to release.

A CG lock for the instructor is always appreciated:biggrin: . Speaking as an instructor, nice to be able to relax a bit in the passenger seat and focus on the student, not just staying in the seat .

 

[MLmotorsport]

IMO, stay stock or go 5/6 point....
Mine was so tight, I had to released he seat buckle to get the lock to release.
.

I had to do the same with my CG lock so it was working as it should but I feel the added upper body restraint with the harnesses would be nice. I may take a look at the SOS bar & 5pt system... kinda ugly but it's not there for looks. :wink:

 

[titaniumdave]

I make a 5/6th point bar for the stock seats, you can run the strap over the front of the cushion and to the bar. This is less than ideal, but better than no 5th point, or running backward between the break in the seat bottom and seat back. I had the passenger seat set up this way with my stock seats.

PM if interested, I have a couple left over from my last run...

 

[DCNSX]

td- thanks for the CG input. where's a good place/website to buy them?

ml- Do you want to sell yours???

 

[titaniumdave]

http://www.cg-lock.com/

 

[MLmotorsport]

td- thanks for the CG input. where's a good place/website to buy them?

ml- Do you want to sell yours???

Yes, I will probably sell mine once I secure an order on a harnessbar (next couple days). I will sell them for a little less (used once, of course) but I can direct you to the website I got them from tomorrow if you want to go that route too. I think it was $80+- for a set of 2. I still have the tools and extra screws.

 

[NSXLuvr]

IMHO - I repeat IMHO. A CG lock is useless. I used it for 3 events and decided to not use it any more.

Instead I did the old NSX trick. Seat moved back and tilted back as much as I need. Then I put on the belt, pull on the shoulder belt real hard to snug up the lap belt. Then I snap on the shoulder belt to lock it. Then I move the seat forward, and tild the seat up until the belt is snug to my chest.

I did this before the CG lock and after and preferred this method to the CG lock.

btw, regarding the tires question - I did 3 years on Street tires(13-14 events) before I upgraded to Toyo's and 5 pt harness.

For the harness, I didn't want to cut through my seat either. So I just let the Anti-sub go under the seat and pull it up over the front seat pad. It works fine for me.

Good luck