Just curious if anyone have a Motec ECU running their NSX? Either street or race car? M4? M8 or M800?
Eddy
Eddy
Motec ECU
- Thread starter Eddy
- Start date
We are factory trained by MoTeC and are distributors for MoTeC. We currently run the M4 on our Turbocharged NSX.
Good to hear. Are you using an Ignition Expander to handle the 6 coils? What about crank sensor? Are you guys using the stock cam sensors or a custom made sensor wheel and sensor? I have a M800 and am about to install it after I finish the harness adapter. It's kind of academic now but did you guys have any trouble with sync/ref sensors? It's such a pain to setup the M4 on a regular Honda 4 cylinder engine. Are you guys using wideband O2 sensors? Anyway, just want to see how many people are actually using Motec.
Eddy
Eddy
Yes are using the Ignition Expander. We use the factory crank position sensor, crank/cam position sensor on the factory OEM position. There are no problems with Sync ref since we already did the homework. Yes we are using the wideband for tuning purposes. Once completed we will eliminate the wide-band and return to the factory narrowband for part throttle closed loop operation. If you have any further questions feel free to call anytime.
Thanks!! Just to compare notes.. I found the CrIP to be like 33deg BTDC using the CYP number 1 sensor.. Going to fire up the engine with it today and see how it runs with base fuel map..
Btw, how are you managing knock? The M800 (and the M4 maybe) supports voltage dependent ignition compensation. I was going to use that but the NSX's knock sensor output needs a post-processing circuit to correctly identify the knock.. I am thinking about copying the circuit in the stock ECU but I figure there's may be another way.. Of course, Motec has no solution..
I am actually going to run wide band sensors in the long term.. You probably know but you can get the wideband sensors pretty cheap ($150) from NAPA.. They are for 93 Civic HX.. 5 wires..
Alright.. I will give you a call to chat sometimes..
Eddy
Btw, how are you managing knock? The M800 (and the M4 maybe) supports voltage dependent ignition compensation. I was going to use that but the NSX's knock sensor output needs a post-processing circuit to correctly identify the knock.. I am thinking about copying the circuit in the stock ECU but I figure there's may be another way.. Of course, Motec has no solution..
I am actually going to run wide band sensors in the long term.. You probably know but you can get the wideband sensors pretty cheap ($150) from NAPA.. They are for 93 Civic HX.. 5 wires..
Alright.. I will give you a call to chat sometimes..
Eddy
- Joined
- 14 April 2002
- Messages
- 2,273
Wow Eddy - welcome.
Always fun to see a project in the works and a knowledgable and gutsy enthusiast going after it!
Can you share some information on your past experiance and your current project for the NSX.
Truth is we are a small community and there isn't nearly enough pioneering and communicaiton amoung grass roots enthusiasts.
Might have something to do with the fact that a short block C30a is around $22k retail or something like that?!?
Always fun to see a project in the works and a knowledgable and gutsy enthusiast going after it!
Can you share some information on your past experiance and your current project for the NSX.
Truth is we are a small community and there isn't nearly enough pioneering and communicaiton amoung grass roots enthusiasts.
Might have something to do with the fact that a short block C30a is around $22k retail or something like that?!?
Actually, yeah.. When I first got my NSX, I was a little disappointed at how few people really know their stuff and if they do they like to keep it to themselves.. I have been working and actually road racing Hondas for almost 2 years.. The C30A engine is almost identical to a B16A so if you have taken a B16A apart and put it back together, a C30A is no more scary. And a Honda chassis is no different.. Once you taken apart one and put it back, it's a piece of cake after that.
Yeah, my car actually runs.. I just replace the engine myself not too long ago because the original engine had one bad cylinder.. I had my M800 sitting around for a few months and finally got a chance to make a wiring adapter for it.. My friend already got his running on his 4 cyclinder B18C.. I just need to get mine to work.. So far so good.. But tried to start the car today with the ECU but no luck.. I think my fuel map is too lean.. Cylinders aren't even close to firing up..
Actually, if you shop around.. A complete C30A long block used is no more than $3000 including shipping from Japan.. That's how I got mine.. The engine is the same almost down to every nut and bolt.. Passes emission too.. I have no doubt that a few new pistons, a set of new cams and some tuning a C30A can easily make 320hp or more..
Well, tomorrow, I will be using my DMM to find out what the stock ECU's typical injector pulse width is so I can guess where I should put the M800 at. Any body got any hints??
Eddy
Yeah, my car actually runs.. I just replace the engine myself not too long ago because the original engine had one bad cylinder.. I had my M800 sitting around for a few months and finally got a chance to make a wiring adapter for it.. My friend already got his running on his 4 cyclinder B18C.. I just need to get mine to work.. So far so good.. But tried to start the car today with the ECU but no luck.. I think my fuel map is too lean.. Cylinders aren't even close to firing up..
Actually, if you shop around.. A complete C30A long block used is no more than $3000 including shipping from Japan.. That's how I got mine.. The engine is the same almost down to every nut and bolt.. Passes emission too.. I have no doubt that a few new pistons, a set of new cams and some tuning a C30A can easily make 320hp or more..
Well, tomorrow, I will be using my DMM to find out what the stock ECU's typical injector pulse width is so I can guess where I should put the M800 at. Any body got any hints??
Eddy
Eddy -- You'll need the UEGO controller as well for the wideband. I'm using the AEM wideband now, and am very happy with the results & price. The replacement sensors are even less.
Cheers,
-- Chris
Cheers,
-- Chris
- Joined
- 14 April 2002
- Messages
- 2,273
Well - I agree for the most part - there are a few people always willing to help like sjs, tunapie, and a few others. They are typically the ones trying to do it themselves too.
Cool!
ut oh! what happened???
Wow! $3000 all day long shipped. OK - now is the time you prove you "aren't like everyone else" and tell the rest of us exactly how you do that! This would be a GREAT writeup for this board and you will get a lot of respect for it.
If you can do this on pump gas with a clean steady idle many people would be very interested to see and copy that!
Well, tomorrow, I will be using my DMM to find out what the stock ECU's typical injector pulse width is so I can guess where I should put the M800 at. Any body got any hints??
I wish I did - but good luck and take lots of pictures and post lots of information during your project. Welcome and I hope you become a regular contributor to the board and enjoy your NSX.
Well.. I don't know what happened but one cyclinder had no compression.. lots of scratches on the cylinder.. bad rings, pistons and caused by bad nsx owner i guess..
I got my engine from a Yahoo auction in Japan. It was an automatic swap.. It cost me $2000 and $1000 to ship it to my door. There are plenty of people out there who are willing to ship it to you. (JDMHondaParts, RCrew Racing, etc etc). The auto tranny is in storage and I have a spare set of rear suspension and brakes.. Not bad of a deal.. There are only a handful of parts different between automatic and 5 speed engines.. Do a little research in the parts catalog and you will see.. primarily.. valve springs, cams, idle valve, a few coolant pipes for the auto tranny cooler, half shalf, one of the axle, wiring harness and computer.. I basically had a spare set of everything so I just swapped everything over.
Well.. Good news.. Finally got the Motec M800 up and running.. Still gotta work out a few bugs.. A few hints for those who are going to try what I do..
1. NSX ECU has 2 controls for the fuel pump.. one low, one high speed.. Stock ECU runs it at high speed while starting but low speed at idle.. But at low speed, I can't get a typical fuel map to fire up the engine.. (This was my problem primarily).. So start it up in high speed..
2. Borrow the fuel map from www.motec.com for their Honda M4 kit. Convert it to M800 map. The fuel map will pretty much start up the engine with 10-20% more fuel trim..
3. I was mistaken.. But after some scope hunting.. I found the CrIP to be 44.4 degrees if you are using the 1st CYP and CKP sensors.. The ignition will be dead on..
4. I haven't gotten my idle valve to work properly so need to do a little part throttle when starting (especially cold) and then ease off on it until you get a nice idling rpm.. until I get my idle valve control done properly, I still can't let the gas pedal all the way out without stalling..
More to come.. put in my wide band o2 sensors, get idle valve to work.. and tune fuel map to run on low speed fuel pump.. etc etc..
Some pictures:
Before installation.. the sensors and wire looms are useless to me.. anyone want it??
engine running with M800
M800 ECU with my green harness adapter.. Stock ECU in the background not being used.. Oscilloscope probing going into the stock ecu for probing..
Another M800
Laptop monitoring the M800
And for those who wants to figure out what I did.. Here are shots of the scope signals from the stock ecu when running at 15bBTDC with the service connector connected..
total of 4 signals.. 1st (top) is CYP sensor (once per cycle), 2nd CKP sensor (24 times per cycle), 3rd, injector #1 (once per cycle), 4th ignitor to coil #1(once per cycle). From these pictures, you can figure out the RPM and also all relative timings of the stock ECU's output. Note that the actual TDC isn't shown here but it can be derivate 15 degrees further down the timeline from the falling edge of the ignitor (when the spark fires)..
scope captures
I got my engine from a Yahoo auction in Japan. It was an automatic swap.. It cost me $2000 and $1000 to ship it to my door. There are plenty of people out there who are willing to ship it to you. (JDMHondaParts, RCrew Racing, etc etc). The auto tranny is in storage and I have a spare set of rear suspension and brakes.. Not bad of a deal.. There are only a handful of parts different between automatic and 5 speed engines.. Do a little research in the parts catalog and you will see.. primarily.. valve springs, cams, idle valve, a few coolant pipes for the auto tranny cooler, half shalf, one of the axle, wiring harness and computer.. I basically had a spare set of everything so I just swapped everything over.
Well.. Good news.. Finally got the Motec M800 up and running.. Still gotta work out a few bugs.. A few hints for those who are going to try what I do..
1. NSX ECU has 2 controls for the fuel pump.. one low, one high speed.. Stock ECU runs it at high speed while starting but low speed at idle.. But at low speed, I can't get a typical fuel map to fire up the engine.. (This was my problem primarily).. So start it up in high speed..
2. Borrow the fuel map from www.motec.com for their Honda M4 kit. Convert it to M800 map. The fuel map will pretty much start up the engine with 10-20% more fuel trim..
3. I was mistaken.. But after some scope hunting.. I found the CrIP to be 44.4 degrees if you are using the 1st CYP and CKP sensors.. The ignition will be dead on..
4. I haven't gotten my idle valve to work properly so need to do a little part throttle when starting (especially cold) and then ease off on it until you get a nice idling rpm.. until I get my idle valve control done properly, I still can't let the gas pedal all the way out without stalling..
More to come.. put in my wide band o2 sensors, get idle valve to work.. and tune fuel map to run on low speed fuel pump.. etc etc..
Some pictures:
Before installation.. the sensors and wire looms are useless to me.. anyone want it??
engine running with M800
M800 ECU with my green harness adapter.. Stock ECU in the background not being used.. Oscilloscope probing going into the stock ecu for probing..
Another M800
Laptop monitoring the M800
And for those who wants to figure out what I did.. Here are shots of the scope signals from the stock ecu when running at 15bBTDC with the service connector connected..
total of 4 signals.. 1st (top) is CYP sensor (once per cycle), 2nd CKP sensor (24 times per cycle), 3rd, injector #1 (once per cycle), 4th ignitor to coil #1(once per cycle). From these pictures, you can figure out the RPM and also all relative timings of the stock ECU's output. Note that the actual TDC isn't shown here but it can be derivate 15 degrees further down the timeline from the falling edge of the ignitor (when the spark fires)..
scope captures
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Well I'm impressed. Too bad you couldn't get a decent configuration file for it to save a lot of the tedious stuff. I know David B. (seldom seen on this forum) runs a Motec though I don't recall which model. Then again, you will be all the more knowledgeable for your labors.
Anyway, good to see someone with the knowledge and patience to tackle the job. Besides cost, the need for a custom harness and lack of base configuration files made the difference when I chose the AEM over the Motec. Hopefully you will continue to share the details as you get it all sorted out so others will have less reason to avoid the Motec.
Anyway, good to see someone with the knowledge and patience to tackle the job. Besides cost, the need for a custom harness and lack of base configuration files made the difference when I chose the AEM over the Motec. Hopefully you will continue to share the details as you get it all sorted out so others will have less reason to avoid the Motec.
BTW, which wideband are you using?
I will be using the NTK 5 wire O2 (L1H1) sensor that are used on the lean burn Civics.. They are supposed to be available from several sources.. But I got 2 from the junkyard.. The M800 supports them and since the engine harness already has 4 wires.. I just have to add an extra wire and change the plastic connector to make it work.. Btw, the new RSX and Civic Si come with 2 O2 sensors like most 4 cyclinders car but the first O2 sensor on these cars are wide band!! I guess that's how Honda can meet ULEV standard.. The computers on these are keeping the fuel mixture under tight control!
Btw, Lambda option on Motec aren't cheap especially dual lambda!!
Eddy
Btw, Lambda option on Motec aren't cheap especially dual lambda!!
Eddy
Eddy,
As others have mentioned above, to use any wideband sensor you still need a dedicated wideband controller because the Motec ECU is expecting a simple analog VDC "signal".
In the case of typical narrow band sensors they provide this directly with an output of ~ 0.1 or 0.9 vdc depending on whether they sense a mixture above or below stoichiometric.
However, no wideband sensor on the market has a simple linear voltage output, so they must be used with a special "controller" which runs the sensor's internal heater as well as reading the sensor and translating that to a roughly linear vdc output. The ECU must then be programmed to match the voltage vs mixture (lambda) slope produced by the controller. As with many automotive inputs a typical range is 0-5 volts though not all controllers support that range. Hopefully the Motec ECU allows multiple data points on the curve since none of the controllers have a truly linear output.
As you said, the Motec Lambda meter is pricey. I bought one awhile back and am generally happy with it but more recently there is a new one on the market which I also just received but have not yet used. I have high hopes for it because they use a new approach to reading the sensor which is theoretically more accurate and yet their price is around $350 including sensor. They are NOT yet another clone of the old DIY project or a variant thereof. Personally I still don’t care for those.
Unfortunately I don't have the link here at work but I'll post it later. And of course there are other options such as the popular FJO and the aforementioned DIY spin-offs, and I think AEM has one now as well but I've not heard much about the features (such as free-air recalibration) or accuracy.
As others have mentioned above, to use any wideband sensor you still need a dedicated wideband controller because the Motec ECU is expecting a simple analog VDC "signal".
In the case of typical narrow band sensors they provide this directly with an output of ~ 0.1 or 0.9 vdc depending on whether they sense a mixture above or below stoichiometric.
However, no wideband sensor on the market has a simple linear voltage output, so they must be used with a special "controller" which runs the sensor's internal heater as well as reading the sensor and translating that to a roughly linear vdc output. The ECU must then be programmed to match the voltage vs mixture (lambda) slope produced by the controller. As with many automotive inputs a typical range is 0-5 volts though not all controllers support that range. Hopefully the Motec ECU allows multiple data points on the curve since none of the controllers have a truly linear output.
As you said, the Motec Lambda meter is pricey. I bought one awhile back and am generally happy with it but more recently there is a new one on the market which I also just received but have not yet used. I have high hopes for it because they use a new approach to reading the sensor which is theoretically more accurate and yet their price is around $350 including sensor. They are NOT yet another clone of the old DIY project or a variant thereof. Personally I still don’t care for those.
Unfortunately I don't have the link here at work but I'll post it later. And of course there are other options such as the popular FJO and the aforementioned DIY spin-offs, and I think AEM has one now as well but I've not heard much about the features (such as free-air recalibration) or accuracy.
Actually, the Motec ECUs directly supports both narrow band and wideband sensors.. In fact, even the low end M4 will support the wideband sensor if you pay for the option.. They support both NTK and Bosch sensor so you won't need any extra controller. The ECU handles all the heater and sensor pump and sensor operations. But since wideband sensors controllers are so common now (and some are cheap), it may be cheaper to go that way and then feed the processed signal into the ECU. I am not sure if AEM directly supports wideband sensors.
Btw, is this the web site that you are talking about?
http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/default.htm
They supposedly have a new controller for the Bosch sensor running in high accuracy mode..
I am about to install my wideband sensors today; spent 3 hours making an adapter for the sensors. I paid (dearly) for my dual wideband options on my M800 so I might as well use. It should help me at least get all the fuel mixtures correct. Will post more info.
Eddy
Btw, is this the web site that you are talking about?
http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/default.htm
They supposedly have a new controller for the Bosch sensor running in high accuracy mode..
I am about to install my wideband sensors today; spent 3 hours making an adapter for the sensors. I paid (dearly) for my dual wideband options on my M800 so I might as well use. It should help me at least get all the fuel mixtures correct. Will post more info.
Eddy
Eddy said:
Indeed, pardon my error. I didn't realize they had that as an option. Of course it makes sense that they would incorporate the PLM circuitry into their ECUs as an option, but I hadn't noticed it before. What I did read I mistook for merely having compatible inputs and software to utilize the signal. Sorry for the sermon.
Anyway, that's great, thanks for the info. I have assumed that AEM will do the same with their new wideband eventually though there may not be room in the current case. But their ECUs all do support wideband controller input and can use it for auto-mapping etc.
I still like the stand-alone units because I can use them, including the display, on my old race car or any other car without needing the ECU. However, the techedge units available at that link are "DIY" spin-offs. Many people own them and like them, but I learned just enough about the technology that I prefer not to risk a forced induction NSX engine by relying on them.
Btw, no offense taken.. And, you are right.. Some of the DIY kits aren't that dependable. It's only good enough for fun datalogging, probably not good enough to tune an engine; espeically when it costs more than an arm and a leg. I finally got my wideband sensors hooked up and running.. I am thinking about buying new sensors now. The used one seems to have slow response time and the calibration is a bit off too; signs of aging O2 sensors. Now, I wish I have a dyno to run through the whole fuel map.
Regarding force induc. engines, you should install a few exhaust temp. sensors on your header. With wideband O2 sensor, ex. temp sensors, you can tell very precisely how your engine is running. It's also critical to see if it will meet emission too.
Now, one thing that is hard to do is the knock sensor. I have some signal captures of the knock sensors output the stock ECU and it looks like the output of a microphone (and it should).. You can tell there are a lot of noise in the signal and front bank sensor would pick up the front bank 3 cylinder's combustion event as much stronger signals than the opposite 3 cylinders. Now, I am beginning to trace the circuit on the stock ECU and it looks like it may be a simple filter that's trying to narrow down the particular frequency of a knock. I will do some more traces later of the processed signals and see if the circuit is indeed focusing on particular signals only.
For those in the future willing to attempt a Motec install, I will put my current M800 setup file and my wiring diagram online somewhere. This file will allow anyone to install a Motec (or other programmable EFI computers) and start the car up right away and let it idle. I wished someone had done that for me in the first place.. Would've save me 3 days of work.
more to come later..
eddy
Regarding force induc. engines, you should install a few exhaust temp. sensors on your header. With wideband O2 sensor, ex. temp sensors, you can tell very precisely how your engine is running. It's also critical to see if it will meet emission too.
Now, one thing that is hard to do is the knock sensor. I have some signal captures of the knock sensors output the stock ECU and it looks like the output of a microphone (and it should).. You can tell there are a lot of noise in the signal and front bank sensor would pick up the front bank 3 cylinder's combustion event as much stronger signals than the opposite 3 cylinders. Now, I am beginning to trace the circuit on the stock ECU and it looks like it may be a simple filter that's trying to narrow down the particular frequency of a knock. I will do some more traces later of the processed signals and see if the circuit is indeed focusing on particular signals only.
For those in the future willing to attempt a Motec install, I will put my current M800 setup file and my wiring diagram online somewhere. This file will allow anyone to install a Motec (or other programmable EFI computers) and start the car up right away and let it idle. I wished someone had done that for me in the first place.. Would've save me 3 days of work.
more to come later..
eddy
Update
Ok. I finally got time to put up a small web page about my M800 installation. Including some digrams and files that will help someone new to get started. Of course, don't assume that it's a plug and play system. Motec=Plug and Pray (or Tune).
http://home.earthlink.net/~eddyanm/motec.html
Besides that, a few signal traces are available for reference on my new very very draft web page.
http://home.earthlink.net/~eddyanm/
Eddy
Ok. I finally got time to put up a small web page about my M800 installation. Including some digrams and files that will help someone new to get started. Of course, don't assume that it's a plug and play system. Motec=Plug and Pray (or Tune).
http://home.earthlink.net/~eddyanm/motec.html
Besides that, a few signal traces are available for reference on my new very very draft web page.
http://home.earthlink.net/~eddyanm/
Eddy
Good stuff Eddy. Can you supply me with the Matrix version download? 
Eddy, is this model Motec wasted spark and or wasted fuel, I guess the term is batch fire. I have the Tec3 and will have GJ do the tuning this week. I had the #5 cyl blow the head gasket with the e-manage experiment and was thinking of running that cyl a little richer or a slightly cooler plug. I had a good WB and a EGT on the rear bank but of course the front bank was the problem. Dan
tunapie said:
Hey Dan, sounds like you're finally close! #5 huh? Watch #4 also as that seems to be the one that runs leanest.
Eddy,
My hat is off to you. I just did a search on your user name and with only 37 posts so far, you have posted quite a bit of useful & technical information on the NSX. Thanks for posting and also thanks for taking the time to document your results on your web page.
My hat is off to you. I just did a search on your user name and with only 37 posts so far, you have posted quite a bit of useful & technical information on the NSX. Thanks for posting and also thanks for taking the time to document your results on your web page.
tunapie said:
Actually, the M800 is capable of sequential spark and fuel for up to 6 cylinder all by itself (without buying extra stuff). So I had it wired up for full sequential operation. No wasted spark or fuel. Motec has a drawing suggesting wasted spark setup for the NSX but I think that's only necessary with a M4.
Wasted spark setup for the NSX should ok as long as you get the timing right but I don't think you ever want to do wasted fuel. I have a 2000 Toyota Solara that I commute with and it's setup as 6 cyclinder with 3 ignition coil from the factory.
I am looking into a new wide band O2 sensor made by Denso. Motec doesn't support it directly so I am trying to adapt it to work with it.. But the sensor is so cheap ($80-150) compared to the Bosch and NTK ones that it may be worth it to set it up for 3 cyclinders or even every cylinder.
Eddy
Eddy said:
There is a Bosch WB sensor that is identical to the one Motec sells for $175 except for the connector. Best of all, it sells for about $50. No, that's not a typo or a case of mistaken identity confusing it with a narrow-band sensor. I don't recall how it was explained to me, but for some reason they were forced to drop the price for a particular application. I was told that it is not a permanent drop, but at least for the foreseeable future.
I don't have the part number here at work but I'll look it up next time they let me go home.
You might Google for it faster.
