More on why they are often "Stealers"

[Vegas Boy]

I know this is about my BMW service experience, however watch out for this scam next time your X is in for service. I had not noticed this before, have others run into this?

So my airbag light is on. Take it to dealer (Bellevue BMW here in
Seattle area), service writer looks it over, says its the
seat sensor (a common prob), he will have tech plug compluter in to confirm and replace it for me for the bargain price of $375. Car wont pass inspection with airbag light on, so I have to have it done and dont have time to DIY.

So I show up to pick the car up, and there is an one hour (at $97)
"diagnostic" labor charge. WTF?? I go see the service mgr and argue about this, my points being:

1) they knew what prob was anyways
2) Took tech about 5 minutes to confirm it
3) I am paying flat rate labor on the install regardless
4) I am paying full list for the part
5) They did not include this charge in the verbal estimate

Shops, particularly dealers, mark up parts to cover all sorts of
overhead, charge you for "shop supplies", charge you flat rate for labor when everybody knows that is scam. They have a biz to run, so that is fine to a point. So, to hit you with another
$97 is just a rip off, pure and simple.

Anyways, service mgr says its std proceedure, I say fine, I am taking my 3 BMWs service biz elsewhere. I also learned something, and will get an itemized estimate of all costs next time a car goes in.

These cars are expensive enough, and I can afford it, but I just
hate getting screwed.

Before we get into the "not all dealers are stealers" chain (which is correct, but some certainly are), I am just pointing this out as something to watch out for.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Your first mistake was doing business in Bellevue. There's an automatic BRG* refiguring incorporated into all diagnoses and charges.

Find a more middle-income sort of area to get your service done, and for god's sake, don't tell anyone you have three BMWs (especially if you have an NSX, too), as that makes you an instant mark.

---
* BRG = Bellevue Rich Guy

 

[Vegas Boy]

I Thought all the Microsoft Millionaires were in Redmond...

I do alot of my own work on my cars, and am pretty well informed, which really makes me angry I got taken like this.
I am going back there on Tuesday to discuss with them again.

 

[vegasnsx]

Get em Wayne!

 

[BB]

I agree that Bellevue is a really bad place to get a good deal. Shortly after getting my NSX, I took it to Bellevue Acura to get an estimate for a timing belt change. They quoted me a rediculous price of $1500 or so. Only a 20 minute drive away at Lynwood Acura they quoted me a price of about $800! Naturally, I had Lynwood do the job. Then I find out later from the local NSX club that Lynwood generally does better quality work anyway!

 

[nsxtasy]

They quoted me a rediculous price of $1500 or so. Only a 20 minute drive away at Lynwood Acura they quoted me a price of about $800!

$1500 is a typical price for replacing the timing belt and water pump at most dealers. $800 is virtually unheard of - congratulations on an exceptional deal!

 

[digimanoc]

Autowave in Huntington Beach wants $1500 too.....but Niguel Motors in Languna Niguel only want $900 and they both say that they replace all the same things.

 

[Vegas Boy]

If I need any major service, I probably will drive the car back down to Vegas and have Factor X do it. If you find somebody good stick with them.

PS- Hey Jason

 

[nsxtasy]

If you find somebody good stick with them.

Your choice, but I wouldn't drive 1250 miles for NSX service if there were competent places locally (Lynwood) or lots closer (Acura of Portland)...

 

[NSXDreamer2]

$1500 is a typical price for replacing the timing belt and water pump at most dealers. $800 is virtually unheard of - congratulations on an exceptional deal!

maybe the $800 was just the labor...

me just trying to be smart a++

 

[glane21]

This is not uncommon for BMW dealerships to try to F*** you on restting their various BS sensors. I had a similar experience with the DSC sensor on my Z3, which likes to come on a lot.

Next time save yourself the $ and hassle and unplug the battery for 30 minutes. Resets the sensor for free.

 

[Vegas Boy]

Oh yeah, after all this I noticed tonight that 1) they didn't reset the airbag light, and 2) they neglected to stamp my service book. (The M3 'vert is the wife's car, she drove it home from the dealership, she wouldn't notice if it was on fire )

I am getting some $$ back from these bozos on Tuesday, anyone want to wager?

 

[paladin]

Shops, particularly dealers, mark up parts to cover all sorts of
overhead, charge you for "shop supplies", charge you flat rate for labor when everybody knows that is scam. They have a biz to run, so that is fine to a point. So, to hit you with another

About the flat rate part, I wouldn't be so hasty to demonize it. IMO it is a very good method for selling labor.
Disclaimer: I worked at a Honda Yamaha motorcycle shop back in my high school years, so if this is different than how its done in automotive ignore my post completely

Flat labor rates are typically published by the manufacturer for most concieveable repairs. Something along the lines of "Disassemble and reassemble transmission : xhrs"
What this means is if you take your vehicle in to have the tranny rebuilt, they charge you the flat rate for labor x hrs times the hourly labor charge, and theres no question about how much its supposed to cost. If the mechanic is particularly good and can shave off a half hour on every job he does, he can in theory get paid for 11 hours when in fact they only worked 8. This also leads to the benefit that if you end up with a bonehead tech that spends all day on it, you only pay for x hours.

The fact that the diagnostics charge was rated at one hour labor (wtf?) and that they never disclosed that to you means you should definately fight it

 

[Vegas Boy]

About the flat rate part, I wouldn't be so hasty to demonize it.

What I mean by my comments about flat rate is that
the system has really gotten away from it original purpose.
As you stated, flat rates are a pretty good idea. they started as a way to legitimatize estimates, project time and costs, etc for typical repairs. All good.

But what it has evolved into is really a joke. Talk to any mechanic, they all know that most jobs take 50-75% of the "book" time.
My invoice shows 1.2 hours for an oil change- what a joke
As tools and technology advanced, the flat rate system did not.
The books still show X hours for a certain proceedure that takes far shorter time these days. Plus, almost any indy shop will discount the FR hours for good customers.

So, what I was inferring was that the dealers have a built in
profit of at least 25 or so if they charge FR hours.

 

[paladin]

1.2 hrs? thats downright scandalous

Hmm, i need to get in on this business
Spend 10 minutes changing oil, charge for 80 minutes!

 

[nsxtasy]

they neglected to stamp my service book.

Stamp your service book? What's that all about?

 

[painlus]

I agree that Bellevue is a really bad place to get a good deal. Shortly after getting my NSX, I took it to Bellevue Acura to get an estimate for a timing belt change. They quoted me a rediculous price of $1500 or so. Only a 20 minute drive away at Lynwood Acura they quoted me a price of about $800! Naturally, I had Lynwood do the job. Then I find out later from the local NSX club that Lynwood generally does better quality work anyway!

I had my timimg belt and water pump redone 2 years ago. Bellevue wanted 1500 whereas seattle wanted 1000. I didn't know about Lynnwood at the time.
Bear in mind, dealerships survive and make more profit from the service dept than sales. It's the old "give the printer away for free but screw them on the cost of the ink cartridges" system.
My buddy took his BMW 325 to Bellevue BMW several years ago and the tech rolled it off the side of the 520 freeway offramp (out for a joy ride I suspect). Needless to say reimbursement was subpar and "by the law book" (aka market value - not replacement value)...caveat umptor...

 

[Crazified]

Flat Rate Manual

At first I thought the "flate rate" manual thing was the biggest joke on the planet. But then I got to thinking about it and I realized that it's a necessity. I mean think about it... if the tech's all worked exactly 8 hours per day and they charged you exactly how long it took then, then the shop would only make a maximum of "x" amount of dollars each day; every day... which would probably not be enough to cover upkeep and good profitablility of the garage. The manual helps out with that.

I heard that the actual dollars and "time" associated with computing that manual info was by taking (let's say) 100 techs, having then do a specific job, figuring out who took the longest, and then adding 20% time to his total time. Is this the case?

 

[Vegas Boy]

Stamp your service book? What's that all about?

BMW's have a service book where the dealer/shop stamp the
required service intervals. It helps prove proper servicing history.

I shouldn't bitch too much, I had a Ferarri once, the first service appt on that freaked me out so much ($ 4,500 for a 15K service) that I used to have nightmares about what it would cost if I actually broke something significant out of warranty. Funny, because that is how I wound up in an NSX, it gave all the visceral thrills of the Ferarri with asian engineering and reliability. I have not looked back once...

 

[Vegas Boy]

I heard that the actual dollars and "time" associated with computing that manual info was by taking (let's say) 100 techs, having then do a specific job, figuring out who took the longest, and then adding 20% time to his total time. Is this the case?

I have zero idea how they came up with the original flat rates, but again, ask any mechanic and they will tell you the flat rates are padded signficantly. I would guess they are structured so the biggest idiot in a barn in West Bumblefutz can make money on any repair.

 

[smokey212]

I wish I lived where you guys do. The local acura shop here wanted to charge me over 2 grand for a timing belt change. I told them for that amount of money I would do it myself. I would never pay someone 2 thousand dollars to do a job that I am more qualified to do than they are.

 

[CokerRat]

The whole flat rate thing is also an equalizer across areas with different cost indicies, with hourly labour rate being the variable. So even though BMW of Beverly Hills and Bronx BMW both charge lets say 1 hour for a certain job, BMW of Beverly Hills will charge more for the repair. Whether that is warranted given Beverly Hills' rents, mechanics wages, etc is up to you. You do always have the option of taking the car elsewhere to somebody who has a lower labour rate. It really doesn't matter what the # hours quoted is, it's the total price that you pay that matters.

I agree with everyone else here: if they gave you a quotation then tried to charge you more after the fact, tell 'em to stuff it. The only reason they pull this kind of crap is because 99% of the time they get away with it!! A verbal quote is still a quote and led directly to your decision to take the car there.

I had a problem with a local Honda dealer here once... their standard type 2 (24k km / 15k mile) service was to replace my 6-month-old Prelude's platinum-tipped spark plugs and do an engine compression test! Of course 99% of the people just say "yes please do the type 2 service" and pay the bill, never thinking twice or reading the work invoice. Needless to say, I will never step foot in there again for sales or service.

 

[Spencer]

* BRG = Bellevue Rich Guy

For sure a real syndrome. I took my car to Bellevue Acura...ONCE...never again. Now I go out of my way to Lynwood. Better and cheaper. On the Eastside, you don't get what you pay for evidently.

 

[Keith in Seattle]

My $0.02...

Well, just to get in on what is at least partly a local Seattle/Eastside thread- and by the way, hello all!- why does anyone take their car to a dealership for anything other than warranty repairs? My BMWs ('99 M Coupe, '88 M3, and, until recently, '99 M3) go either to Strictly BMW (just around the corner from BMW of Bellevue) or Car Tender (a few blocks from BMW of Seattle) whenever they need repairs. I've been happy with both places. There is also a new BMW shop in Issaquah (Eastside Bavarian) that local club members seem to like. I've only had my '97 NSX-T since Christmas, so don't have a lot of experience here, but Acura of Bellevue has done right by me so far, including replacing two oxygen sensors under warranty. The Corvette goes to a specialty shop in Kirkland...

Keith

MIPG
(Mercer Island Poor Guy)

 

[nsxtasy]

why does anyone take their car to a dealership for anything other than warranty repairs?

Because, with very few exceptions (primarily in California, Phoenix, Orlando, and New York's Rockland/Orange County), the only mechanics who have a lot of experience servicing the NSX work at dealerships. Any competent mechanic can do routine tasks on the NSX like brake jobs, tire changes, and oil changes. But for things that are very complex (clutch replacement, timing belt replacement) and/or require troubleshooting and diagnosis, lots of NSX experience will reduce the amount of time it takes to perform the service and ensure the quality of the job.

BMW sells over 100,000 cars per year in the United States, so the chances of finding a competent independent mechanic who is familiar with servicing the car and its problems are a lot better than for a car that has sold fewer than 9,000 cars in its entire history.