Mild modified NSX vs. Mild modified 300ZXTT

[AutoVation]

Since my Z dyno'd 499rwhp, I felt like I've taken it as far as it would go. As most of you with high hp Z's know, 90% of that hp is not able to be used on the street in normal situations anyway. Well, since then I've picked up an NSX and have started modding it but I'm going the N/A route for a totally different experience. I've purchased a few performance upgrades for the NSX and I want to see just exactly what kind of a "real world" effect they will have on the NSX. Most of these mods are sitting in the garage waiting to be installed so we are going to do a before and after comparison. I was very happy with the stage IV/V power in the Z and felt that most of that hp was actually usable on the street. As a result, that is the performance level I am targeting with the NSX. Jodecy and I thought it would be fun to use his Z as the "benchmark" for my NSX.

Here's performance comparison #1 (BEFORE):
1991 NSX
1. Taitec GT lightweight exhaust
2. Blitz 17" Type 03 wheels
3. Removed engine cover
4. Removed trunk mat
5. Dyno'd at 240rwhp/193rwtq in current form
6. Total weight reduction of 47lbs. (exhaust, engine cover, trunk mat)
All else is 100% stock.

1992 300ZXTT
1. JWT Pop Charger
2. Greddy PE exhaust
3. JWT ECU
4. Test Pipes
5. Unorthodox Pulley
6. Gutted Pre-cats
7. Trust (Greddy) Side Mount Intercoolers
8. Powertrix Grounding Kit
9. RPS Max Street Clutch
10. Fidanza Aluminum Flywheel
11. 18" Volk GTP's
I believe Jody dyno'd 351rwhp before the intercoolers were installed.

For the AFTER comparison, the NSX will have these mods:
1. Taitec GTLW exhaust
2. Blitz 17" Type 03 wheels
3. Removed engine cover
4. Removed trunk mat
5. Removed spare tire & associated tools (- 47 lbs.)
6. Comptech headers (+15 rwhp, -10 lbs.)
7. Air intake (+7 rwhp)
8. Lightweight battery (-20 lbs.)
9. 6 speed transmission with 4.235 final gear ratio
Total weight reduction of 124 lbs. and estimated dyno of about 265 rwhp.

Here's an interesting point... the performance mods on the NSX are going to cost about the same as mods on the 300ZXTT (about $4k).

I'm meeting with Jody this week to talk about exactly how we are going measure them against each other. I know the BEFORE test is probably not going to look good for the NSX! It will be interesting to see the AFTER test though. I wonder how much of these tests will come down to driver skill... ;-)

Here's a picture of the contestants...

 

[NoMiEzVR4]

Eagerly awaiting results. good thread, nice clean cars you got there

 

[WingZ]

21psi?????? Are you running stock turbo's that high?


Well I'm not too sure what you're asking.

1. Will the NSX be as fast as the Z?
2. Are you taking them to the track?

I have both cars and no the NSX will not be as fast as the Z in a straight line ,but the Z will not corner and brake like the NSX. Your Z mods seem one dimensional ( all horsepower no chasis/brake mods ). On the track the Z's are heavy with fade away brakes adding more horsepower will just make it track showing worst as you'll just overheat the brakes quicker. The NSX is going to be quicker because it's better balanced for the track and not a drag car ( neither is the Z ,but alot of people make it one ). Your better off enjoying each car for it's strength's.

I think a couple of NSXprime members have Z's as well maybe they'll say something different.

 

[AutoVation]

21psi?????? Are you running stock turbo's that high?

Well I'm not too sure what you're asking.

1. Will the NSX be as fast as the Z?
2. Are you taking them to the track?

I have both cars and no the NSX will not be as fast as the Z in a straight line ,but the Z will not corner and brake like the NSX. Your Z mods seem one dimensional ( all horsepower no chasis/brake mods ). On the track the Z's are heavy with fade away brakes adding more horsepower will just make it track showing worst as you'll just overheat the brakes quicker. The NSX is going to be quicker because it's better balanced for the track and not a drag car ( neither is the Z ,but alot of people make it one ). Your better off enjoying each car for it's strength's.

I think a couple of NSXprime members have Z's as well maybe they'll say something different.

My Z has PE1420 turbo's which run at 21psi. The Z in this comparison (Jody's) will be running on stock turbos at 15psi.

Jody and I will be discussing how to measure "real world" conditions. He does have several suspension mods (my Z does as well).

AutoVation is setting up track time set up in January for Roebling road and we will finalize the testing there.

 

[Jodicious]

I own the Maroon Z in the picture....I am looking forward to this test against Tony... I really think the 6-speed will make the largest noticable difference...

Your Z mods seem one dimensional ( all horsepower no chasis/brake mods )..

I have some suspension mods

and I brake too

but honestly I don't think we are gonna test the handling or braking in this test, mainly just see how much reduced weight, minor increase in HP, and improved gearing will affect Tony's NSX in acceleration.... unless you have different ideas Tony?

 

[AutoVation]

I don't think we are gonna test the handling or braking in this test, mainly just see how much reduced weight, minor increase in HP, and improved gearing will affect Tony's NSX in acceleration.... unless you have different ideas Tony?

The first tests I expect to deal with acceleration differences, that's what all the NSX mods are for! :biggrin: But when we get track time at Roebling, we will get to test all the parameters.

 

[MCM]

"I wonder how much of these tests will come down to driver skill... ;-)"

It takes little or no skill to go in a straight line.
(not worth the wear and tear on my clutch to be honest with you)
Get on a road course if you really want to see what these cars were built for.
That's where drivers skill comes into play. The limits on my NSX are very high. The car continues to amaze me every time I take it out.
The effects of 124lbs? I guess it would be like driving alone V.S driving with a female passenger. Wheel/tire weight savings on the other hand, has always made sense to me.
Aside from forced induction or NOS, huge HP gains are not easy to come by on this car.
Susp is where huge gains can be made for very little $$$.
Just my 2.
(I may be one of the few, but I really like the 5 speed with stock gears,
I think its fun going that fast in 2nd gear) :biggrin:

"It will be interesting to see the AFTER test"
I think it will be about the same as the before, I would not expect too much difference from those mods concerning straight line, or otherwise.

 

[AutoVation]

"I wonder how much of these tests will come down to driver skill... ;-)"

"It will be interesting to see the AFTER test"
I think it will be about the same as the before, I would not expect too much difference from those mods concerning straight line, or otherwise.

One of the things that we are going to test is how quickly the cars come off the line. The Z (esp. a modded one) is very tricky to launch without bogging or spinning the tires. The comment on driver skill was mainly alluding to an inside joke between Jody and I about a drag race he had that didn't come out as expected. :wink:

Regarding the NSX acceleration, I expect at least a 0.5 sec improvement to 60mph and in the 1/4. It should be very noticable going from a 5spd to a 6spd with NSX-R gears.

 

[nsxtasy]

Bob Butler's numbers may help you estimate your performance improvement. His analysis shows that if you start with a stock '91 NSX, you can drop 1/4 mile times by the following amounts:

1. Reducing weight by 100 pounds drops 1/4 mile times by 0.16 second.

2. Adding 15 hp drops 1/4 mile times by 0.32 second.

3. Changing from the stock five-speed to the short gears with 4.235 R&P drops 1/4 mile times by 0.19 second.

When you make more than one change, you will probably get slightly less improvement than the sum of the numerical improvements for the individual changes ("the law of diminishing returns") but these should give you an idea of what you might expect.

Good luck, and have fun!

 

[AutoVation]

Bob Butler's numbers may help you estimate your performance improvement. His analysis shows that if you start with a stock '91 NSX, you can drop 1/4 mile times by the following amounts:

1. Reducing weight by 100 pounds drops 1/4 mile times by 0.16 second.

2. Adding 15 hp drops 1/4 mile times by 0.32 second.

3. Changing from the stock five-speed to the short gears with 4.235 R&P drops 1/4 mile times by 0.19 second.

When you make more than one change, you will probably get slightly less improvement than the sum of the numerical improvements for the individual changes ("the law of diminishing returns") but these should give you an idea of what you might expect.

Good luck, and have fun!

Hmmm, a 0.32 second improvement from just 15rwhp? I don't agree with that one.

I think with the mods that I am doing, a 0.5 sec reduction is realistic.

I'm actually thinking the mods will complement each other. The added rwhp will have less weight to move forward and better gearing to move the weight forward with! :biggrin:

I'm also looking at the 4.40 or 4.55 gear sets but I have not found a lot of history or feedback on them. There are only a small handful of posts on them.

 

[cwood1388]

good to hear your modding the car man. i have the 4.23's and i love it..i hearded its supposed to give you better gearing for the trach because i believe 2 and 3 gear are lower....i havent gone to the track to get times but just playing on the street i can tell a difference. also have a pg2 clutch so i dont know if that my differ from your set-up. if you get to do a track event let me know something. if i can find time for it id love to get out there. best regards man.

 

[AutoVation]

good to hear your modding the car man. i have the 4.23's and i love it..i hearded its supposed to give you better gearing for the trach because i believe 2 and 3 gear are lower....i havent gone to the track to get times but just playing on the street i can tell a difference. also have a pg2 clutch so i dont know if that my differ from your set-up. if you get to do a track event let me know something. if i can find time for it id love to get out there. best regards man.

We'll definitely invite you down to Roebling when the timing is set for the AutoVation track day.

Did you install the 4.23's on a 5spd. transmission? If so, do you have the japanese gearing also?

 

[Osiris_x11]

what kind of dyno?

Here's performance comparison #1 (BEFORE):
1991 NSX
1. Taitec GT lightweight exhaust

5. Dyno'd at 240rwhp/193rwtq in current form

hmmm... Going w/ an aftermarket exhaust and dyno'd at 240rwhp seems a bit low to me. Any idea what the NSX dyno'd w/ the OEM exhaust?

I know dyno equipment differ one from another, but most stock '91-'94 NSX'es I've seen dyno in the range of 237.5 - 242.5 (excluding the occasional under/over achievers). I'd think the Taitec GT lightweight exhaust would give you 8-10rwhp (often the headers/exhaust combo gives ~20rwhp).

Just food-for-thought!

 

[cwood1388]

We'll definitely invite you down to Roebling when the timing is set for the AutoVation track day.

Did you install the 4.23's on a 5spd. transmission? If so, do you have the japanese gearing also?

yup the whole thing. 5spd...i originally wanted the 4.55/6spd conversion but i couldnt shell out the 12k for it. what other mods do you plan on doing?

 

[LJSB]

It takes little or no skill to go in a straight line.

Not true.

 

[WingZ]

I own the Maroon Z in the picture....I am looking forward to this test against Tony... I really think the 6-speed will make the largest noticable difference...

I have some suspension mods

Nice suspension mods!

Most people just do engine mods and that has never made any sense to me..LoL

Good luck with your comparo!

 

[nsxtasy]

Hmmm, a 0.32 second improvement from just 15rwhp? I don't agree with that one.

I think with the mods that I am doing, a 0.5 sec reduction is realistic.

Bob didn't just guess at these figures. He created a mathematical model which used the actual power/torque curve of the NSX, weight of the NSX, gear ratios, tire size, aerodynamic drag, rolling friction, assumed specific times for shifting, etc. The results he came up with corresponded almost perfectly with test results achieved under controlled circumstances by the major car magazines, although, as stated in the NSX FAQ (Performance - Gears) where some of his results are described, "Although the exact magnitude of the result may have a little uncertainty, the numbers will allow you to compare different cases side-by-side and make your own decisions."

The mods that you are doing include more than just adding 15 hp. To the extent that you add 15 hp and also make other changes that improve acceleration, the 1/4 mile times should improve more than the amount that the 15 hp alone would achieve.

 

[nsxsupra]

Re: what kind of dyno?

Clean Zs, very nice all around mods. Are you are doing comparision for nsx vs the Z with 351rwhp, not the 499rwhp one?, or both?

I think after your exhaust, header, weight reduction, and other mods on your list. You will do fine against the Z with 351rwhp. Imho it will always take at least additional 50~70rwhp for heavier/RWD cars to beat nsx. 350-70=280rwhp. The driver might be able to make up remaining hp difference, but if the other driver is skilled, then your chance will be super slim.

If you two run from deadstop, you will have very good chance of winning:
NSX' advantage are traction having the MR engine helps squad all that weight on the rear wheels, easy to launch. 300ZX will probably be playing catch up.

300ZX will have minor traction problems if launched hard, also minor wheel spin during 1~2shift, 2~3shift.

If you race from a 30~40mph roll, you will not have a chance. The traction is most likely no longer an issue for the Z with 351rwhp in this situation.

Can you please post your after dyno, I am very curious what you will do with your set up.

 

[AutoVation]

Re: what kind of dyno?

hmmm... Going w/ an aftermarket exhaust and dyno'd at 240rwhp seems a bit low to me. Any idea what the NSX dyno'd w/ the OEM exhaust?

I'm not concerned, the dyno numbers are uncorrected and was done when the outside temp. was 98 deg. and the humidity level was about 95% also.

 

[AutoVation]

Re: what kind of dyno?

Clean Zs, very nice all around mods. Are you are doing comparision for nsx vs the Z with 351rwhp, not the 499rwhp one?

We're just comparing the NSX against the 351rwhp Z. That was about the power level of my Z when I became "satisfied" with the acceleration.

Regarding the race from a 30mph roll, I am looking forward to the results on that. I expect the trap speeds of the Z and the NSX (after) to be pretty close to each other, therefore I expect this race to be competitive.

Now, If I can drop an extra 20lbs. from my other "spare tire", maybe I'll have a better chance. :biggrin: I wonder if that's considered sprung weight? :tongue:

 

[SilverStone05]

As far as acceleration goes, the Z is going to absolutely kill the NSX. I've had a few Z's in my time, the last being a 411whp beast on stock turbos. (you can check twinturbo.net and search for cant_z_me to see copies of my dyno charts and what not)

My 300ZX was so much faster in a straight line than the NSX no matter what the situation. Launching the darn thing was hard, but once it hooked and hit boost it was all over. The driving ability of the Z driver is not going to determine whether or not the Z will win the race, it will only dictate how early the Z pulls ahead....

God knows a Z is hard to launch, my best quarter time was around a thirteen. Once again, though, and despite its weight, it still does have about a hundred whp on said NSX.

I'm anxious to see the outcome.

 

[AutoVation]

My 300ZX was so much faster in a straight line than the NSX no matter what the situation.

I think the Z "felt" faster because of the high torque figures. But the acceleration between a 351rwhp Z and a 270rwhp NSX (lightened & with NSX-R gears) should be similar. At least I hope!

 

[shiri]

Hmmm, a 0.32 second improvement from just 15rwhp? I don't agree with that one.

I think with the mods that I am doing, a 0.5 sec reduction is realistic.

I'm actually thinking the mods will complement each other. The added rwhp will have less weight to move forward and better gearing to move the weight forward with! :biggrin:

I'm also looking at the 4.40 or 4.55 gear sets but I have not found a lot of history or feedback on them. There are only a small handful of posts on them.

Actually you gain more with naturally FI cars than with NA cars, I think NSXTACY is referring to NSX related performance.

Do you have HICAS? You can drop those and save even more weight. Do you still have the stock diff? changing that will let the Z take off faster. The Z is a very capable track car. I know one who runs and keeps up with GTRs.

 

[SilverStone05]

I think the Z "felt" faster because of the high torque figures. But the acceleration between a 351rwhp Z and a 270rwhp NSX (lightened & with NSX-R gears) should be similar. At least I hope!

well...it WAS faster. I drove the piss out of that car and loved every second of it. Only sold it because I was watching in horror as prices dropped and people with very poor taste (not you of course) started buying them.

I think the NSX and the 300ZXTT share the commonality in that both feel very small and maneuverable. They also are both very well engineered, (the Z perhaps may have been overengineered) and very well built.

and it was 411whp, not 351....and since you brought it up, 427 on torque :biggrin:

cheers

 

[docjohn]

If you have spent time and effort to reduce the wght of your nsx and want to ring out the very last ounce of performance NA then you may want to rethink your choice of wheels as well.I have the blitz type 3 which I bought for thier looks alone,but they are heavy esp the 18 rears.You might think about a lighter set such as the ssr-c ,volkes,ect.